Topper Model 158 info needed please.

[Ladobe]

My son was given a H&R Topper Model 158 20 GA with the buttstock shortened for a youth shooter.   The source said sometimes it doesn't shoot when the trigger is pulled (I assume the hammer does not fall part or all the way).   My son tried it many times and it always would have fired for him, so far.   Son wants to learn with me helping him clean up the SG for an 11 year old he has planned to give it to.

While I bought my son a H&R 12 GA Topper Deluxe Classic Vent Rib a few years ago, I know next to nothing about the H&R/NEF firearms (never took one apart).   So I'd appreciate a link to a good exploded view diagram for the Mod 158 before I dive into it.
 
Would also help if any of you experts can tell me what the most likely causes are, what to look for, etc and who has parts in stock available for sale?

Thanks folks.

Larry

[quickdtoo]

Look in the FAQs and Help sticky, lots of info there including Perklo's detailed info on trigger work which includes the transfer bar ( striker lifter) which is the likely culprit if it has one, you can order a replacement t-bar from Numrich, they also carry hammer springs which may also be the problem if the t-bar appears to be working, but Wolff EP springs are a better choice, link in the FAQs also.

Tim

www.perkloafm.com

http://www.gunpartscorp.com/catalog/Products.aspx?catid=8099

[Ladobe]

Thanks Tim.... apprectiate the info.

[kf4ocv]

158 Topper has a rebounding hammer not a transfer bar.   It is probably the  hammer springs,  I have a 12g doing the same thing.  My hammer seems a little weak compaired to my 20g and .410 frames of the same model.  I don't think it would be hard to do but I just haven't decided to do mine yet.  Also I might add when the 12g misfired I was using the cheap federal shells from Wal-mart.  I hope this helps.

[quickdtoo]

Most later model 158s have transfer bars and high hammer spur, only the early models(pre-78 I think) had rebounding hammers and double coil springs, that's why I said if it has a transfer bar. 

Tim

Look in the FAQs and Help sticky, lots of info there including Perklo's detailed info on trigger work which includes the transfer bar ( striker lifter) which is the likely culprit if it has one

[Ladobe]

Interesting.   I took this 1972 SG apart the other night, and it did not have the transfer bar.   It also didn't have double coil springs either.   Not unless you consider this ones hammer spring a double coil when it was a single spring with two legs that hooked into the back of the frame.   It does have a rebounding hammer.   Cleaned it up, relubed and reassembled as I found no problems and in fact so little wear that I don't think its been shot much.   A finger over the FP hole when shot hits it hard enough to sting.   Will take being shot with ammo to find out if the hammer spring is weak though.    I'll leave that to my son or the kid that will be getting the SG.  Thanks again folks.

[quickdtoo]

The double coil spring has two legs, single coil only have one anchor on the frame.

Tim

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=245956

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=565785

[Ladobe]

I see, said the blind man, (to his deaf dog) what you mean by double coil.    Thanks pard.

Larry

[Winter Hawk]

My first H&R was a 158, .30-30 w/ 20 ga. and it didn't have a transfer bar.  I bought it new in 1958.  Wish I still had it!

-Kees-

[PHATINJUN]

Numrich has the viewable PDF schematic for the 158 online. Kurt

[quickdtoo]

You're a little late to the party Kurt, I posted it already, but it's a late model diagram, single coil spring, t-bar and high spur hammer. 

Tim

Look in the FAQs and Help sticky, lots of info there including Perklo's detailed info on trigger work which includes the transfer bar ( striker lifter) which is the likely culprit if it has one, you can order a replacement t-bar from Numrich, they also carry hammer springs which may also be the problem if the t-bar appears to be working, but Wolff EP springs are a better choice, link in the FAQs also.

Tim

www.perkloafm.com

http://www.gunpartscorp.com/catalog/Products.aspx?catid=8099

[gcrank1]

The firing pin protrusion could be a tad short too, all mine are on the minimum side (ie, less than .050", one was closer to .040"). You can go to .060 a bit at a time, say .005" until you get reliable ignition. If you push the firing pin flush with the frame at the hammer contact (use a small screwdriver tip) you will see that it can protrude more than the hammer makes it go. You have to remove metal at the place in the frame where the hammer is being stopped. It does not take much filing!!! Your choice to relieve the hammer (easily replaced) or the frame.
My old guns really make deep indents in primers, especially the mil-surp rifles and old shotguns, compared to my H&R's. If the f-pin doesnt protrude far enough for a deep seated primer or a thin shell rim, it doesnt matter how hard the hammer/spring unit slaps the frame.

[Winter Hawk]

Whoops!  I just noticed that I wrote that I got my Topper in 1958, when it was in 1985.    Fat finger typing strikes again!  That in response to Tim's post on the post 1978 models having the transfer bar.  Or was that fat fingeritis hitting you too, and it should be 1987??

-Kees-

[quickdtoo]

Kees, it may have been new, but old stock, what's the serial number prefix? Numrich shows the t-bar used on lots of older H&Rs made long before 1985.

Tim

http://www.gunpartscorp.com/catalog/Detail.aspx?pid=1139220B&catid=8099

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/everygun/GunMfgCategoryDetail.aspx?id=2101

[32 Magnum]

Because of the simularity of the H&R shotguns, it was necessary to change ALL models to "transfer bar" at one time - that was done in 1978.

[quickdtoo]

Thanks Jim, more "facts" for the FAQs. 

Tim

[Winter Hawk]

Foolishly I sold the little rifle/shotgun about 10 years later so I can't give a serial no.  It had the half cock safety  I took it all apart one day in the kitchen (learned about slave pins in a hurry!) and it was a very basic action, no transfer bar that I can remember.  They wouldn't have put one on and still had a half cock safety also, would they?

-Kees-

[quickdtoo]

You certainly wouldn't think so. I have a three modern H&Rs with the old pre-t-bar half-cock hammers on them, minus the t-bar of course, one is my 45-120 BC, it's got one of the gold tone hammers on it, the only problem is remembering to bring it back to half-cock after the shot, other than not being as safe as a t-bar, the ejector may wipe across the tip of the firing pin and ruin it. 

Tim