Just setup the press, some questions

[Gdbyrd]

I have a Lyman manual, 48th edition, all I could find locally.  Going to order something newer probably later this week.

I bought a lyman challenger kit back last July I think it was, anyhow..finally got a chance to set up the press last week so I'm anxious to start reloading.

Right now I want to reload for two calibers: 44mag in a SRH, and 460 S&W in a Encore 15".  I read the manual, and all the instructional manuals that came with the kit.  But I want to make sure I've got this process correct.

I already decapped and resized all the old brass(once fired), so the rest of this hasn't been done yet.

I need to reprime all the old cases.  using Large pistol magnum primers, CCI #350.  I have Winchester 296 for powder.  After I prime the cases, I'm then going to use the expanding die, charge the cases with a minimum charge per my manual.  Next step will be seating the bullet in and checking all my tolerances with a caliper to make sure I'm on spec wise.

Then I'm done right?

For the 460 I planned on using the same 296 powder, but I assume those primers will not do the job.  I don't have any reloading info on that caliber as my book is too old.  I wanted to know for the encore.  Can I loosely seat a bullet in an empty case and get the overall length by spacing off the rifling?  The process involves putting the empty case in my gun with the bullet out farther than normal and shutting it to see where it'll push the bullet back to..is this correct and safe?

Thanks!

[Catfish]

You can get all of the loading data on line at the powder manufactures web. pages. As for your way of findind seating depth, that is the method I use. When you do it your bullet will be seated into the lands. I usually seat the bullets alittle deeper untill the land marks are gone from the bullets. You can also play with seating deepth to find what shoots best in your gun.

[mechanic]

Yep on what Catfish said.  You can probably work up a load with the mag. primers for the 460 as well.  Since you are starting with minimums, you should be fine.  During the last primer "outage" all I could find was magnum, so I have loads worked up for about all I own.

I wouldn't load up a great big batch at one charge until you know it shoots well.  There are posts here and elsewhere that explain how to work up.  You never know where you will find the sweet spot for any particular gun....or if you will.

Have fun and be careful..

Ben

[cwlongshot]

Personally, I prime last thing before filling with powder and seating a bullet. Here is how I do it...

The cases come home form the range or hunt and go into the tumbler. If really dirty or are range brass, they get washed and dried in the oven. THEN tumbled. Once clean they get sorted for loading.

If I can use carbide dies (straight walled cases)I will, if not I lube cases, brush the necks inside with mica and re-size. Again if I had to lube they go back in the tumbler for a half hour or so to remove the lube.

Then I trim the cases.

Then I deburr the case necks inside and out.

Then I clean inside the primer pockets.

Then I deburr flash holes. Now, many will say this isn't necessary and for the most part I would agree. But seeing as I need to inspect each case for debris from the tumbler. So this is a easy way to accomplish both.

Then if its a straight wall case, I flair the case mouth.

Then I get out the primers and fill the primer hopper. I prime each case and stand them back in the loading block ready for powder. Extra/unused primers go back in the magazine.

Then I get a can of proper powder and fill the hopper in the powder measure. (It the ONLY powder on the bench.) I set up my powder measure for weight and double check. Then I charge a case with powder and seat the bullet. I like the RCBS or a REDDING powder measure. I set to the weight I want and check on my scale. Occasionally I will charge a whole line of cases. But generally I charge one case with powder and seat a bullet. I double check the powder charge after every ten shells. For my most precise loads, I'll throw a lite charge and trickle it to perfect and charge the case. All unused powder goes back into the can and the can back in the magazine.

See that primer is a possible problem. How ever infinitesimal the chances, it could ignite and if that where to happen with the case in the die it could be bad. So I don' put a primed case in a die any more then absolutely necessary.

Mag primers are pretty much required for ball powders like 296. that powder is hard to ignite and the extra flash from the mag powder is what is needed for complete ignition.

Good luck,
 CW

[Bigeasy]

On most 3 die sets, the second, de-priming die also should be adjusted to slightly expand the case mouth at the same time as de-priming.  No point going back and doing it as an extra step.  When you seat your bullets, make sure you adjust your seating die to remove the slight "bell" you put in your case mouth when you de-primed.  When using 296 / 110 powder, at least in a .44mag, you need a decent crimp for proper powder burn. I assume it would be the same with a .460.  As you look up data for the .460, you may find a more suitable powder that does not require a crimp, as bullets moving forward under recoil is not an issue in a single shot, as it would be in a revolver.

Its always a good idea to follow reliable reloading data from manufacturers, or in loading manuals when it comes to primer selection.  I do not reload for the .460, but you may find it requires a rifle primer due to its operating pressure, so, again, check.  usually I start out loading to standard OAL, then experiment with seating length if I feel accuracy could be better.  You definitely do not want the bullet jammed into the lands, or seated to deep, as each can raise pressures.

Larry

[buck460XVR]

I do not reload for the .460, but you may find it requires a rifle primer due to its operating pressure, so, again, check. 

Yep...large rifle primers for the .460. With H110/W296 I use magnum primers. I've found IMR4227 also works well in the .460 especially with long pipes. It also is my second choice for .44mag loads. I would start conservative with the .460 for the Encore. With no cylinder gap or compensator, recoil may be harsh with stout loads. My oldest had one for a while and he didn't like the same loads I shot in my revolver.

[Gdbyrd]

OK, I spent the past 2-3 hours reloading....8 cases...It's the first time I've ever reloaded on a single stage press, and it's the first time I've ever had to do my own setup.

My biggest problems were my scale, and getting bullet depth/crimping set.

The scale is the safety powder scale that came with my kit.  I swear..you can zero this thing..walk downstairs to get a coke, come up and it's lost it's zero.  It took me 30 minutes to realize my table isn't level which didn't help any.  That scale sucks so that's the first piece of equipment I will want to replace.  The powder measure that came with the kit also took some messing with..the weights it said it shoulda been at were not anywhere near.  Off by 1.3 grains.

The next issue I still sort of need help with.  How do you get the bullet seating dies set?  I did like the instructions said, but it didn't really seem to work.  I got online and googled it.  What I did: Put the die in but barely screwed in.  I then put an empty expanded case in(no powder/primer) pushed it all the way up.  Then proceeded to screw the die down until I felt the case. Backed the case out, turned the die 1 more turn, then locked it.  I then unscrewed the bullet depth way way out, dropped a bullet in the empty case and gave it a pull..checked my overall length and continued to do so until I met my goal.

But the damn crimp was hard.

I had to turn the whole die down a 1/4 turn.  Adjust the bullet depth the opposite way, and give it a pull.  I just kept doing this until I got where I am now which looks good.  The crimp is exactly on the edge.  The only issue I'm seeing is that it makes little hairlike fragments of the case as it crimps it, but the ammo looks like factory.


If you can give me some good solid advice on setting up a good crimp/bullet depth without so many attempts I'd love to get your input on it.

[cwlongshot]

Best way I can offer is to use a loaded bullet.

Put the bullet in the shell holder and run it up into the EMPTY press. Back the seater stem out of the seater die. Run the seater die body into the press until it meets resistance. This is the crimping part of the die contacting the crimped mouth of the loaded bullet. Now back it up just a quarter + turn or so and set the locking screw. Now turn in the seating stem until it gently contacts the bullet. Your die is roughly set.

Crimping in the same stroke as seating is problematic at best. Leave the die backed out a bit and seat all bullets to proper length. THEN go back and run the stem up so it cannot contact anything and run the die down to make your crimp. It's much better to do this in two steps. seat first, crimp second.

What you should do is make up a dummy round. No primer no powder. Do this for every different bullet. Use this to set up your dies.

As for the scale... if your using a lee scale, TOSS IT!!  Even the Lee supporters mostly agree Lee scales are awful!

Good luck,
 CW

[Gdbyrd]

Best way I can offer is to use a loaded bullet.

Put the bullet in the shell holder and run it up into the EMPTY press. Back the seater stem out of the seater die. Run the seater die body into the press until it meets resistance. This is the crimping part of the die contacting the crimped mouth of the loaded bullet. Now back it up just a quarter + turn or so and set the locking screw. Now turn in the seating stem until it gently contacts the bullet. Your die is roughly set.

Crimping in the same stroke as seating is problematic at best. Leave the die backed out a bit and seat all bullets to proper length. THEN go back and run the stem up so it cannot contact anything and run the die down to make your crimp. It's much better to do this in two steps. seat first, crimp second.

What you should do is make up a dummy round. No primer no powder. Do this for every different bullet. Use this to set up your dies.

As for the scale... if your using a lee scale, TOSS IT!!  Even the Lee supporters mostly agree Lee scales are awful!

Good luck,
 CW

Awesome advice, thanks.  I went ahead and made a dummy round to keep for benchmark purposes.  Should I try to drop the crimp down some so I will stop getting little brass "hairs" or is that OK? 

How does it work?  The further the die is down the further down the crimp will be?  Or the further down the harder it will be?  Does it just get more narrow as it goes up?

[cwlongshot]

As long as we are speaking of the roll crimp built into the seater die and not that worthless Lee Factory Crimp die... 

Its not going to move the crimp its going to provide a firmer crimp. How firm a crimp is up to you. Some powders require a firm crimp others a lite crimp while others sill none at all. Crimps can help with complete ignition, velocity fluctuations and keep bullets from moving in the magazine or during feeding. Again depending on the action they are fired in or the powder that's behind them... But of you can see a line forming around the case from the crimp, you are going too far.

CW

[Gdbyrd]

As long as we are speaking of the roll crimp built into the seater die and not that worthless Lee Factory Crimp die... 

Its not going to move the crimp its going to provide a firmer crimp. How firm a crimp is up to you. Some powders require a firm crimp others a lite crimp while others sill none at all. Crimps can help with complete ignition, velocity fluctuations and keep bullets from moving in the magazine or during feeding. Again depending on the action they are fired in or the powder that's behind them... But of you can see a line forming around the case from the crimp, you are going too far.

CW

I'm using the dies that come with the carbide 3 die set : /  Not sure if that's the bad one you're talking about or the one you've been describing!  I tried moving the die way down and I didn't notice any difference in crimping. 

Looking at Midway and Midsouth now for my next order.  Gonna have to get a whole mess of dies, a new scale, and a tumbler.  Cleaning this brass by hand sucks.

[Tom W.]

On most 3 die sets, the second, de-priming die also should be adjusted to slightly expand the case mouth at the same time as de-priming. 

Larry, what dies do you have? My three die sets have a resize/ deprime, a flair, and a bullet seating/ crimping die. Both the RCBS and the Hornady dies are like that.

[Dand]

Are you SURE you have a Lyman Challenger Kit?  I can only find a LEE Challenger kit online.  And this suggests an answer to one question I had - who made your scale?  I'm suspecting its a Lee Safety scale - and I have  not read many good reviews of it.  Get a Hornady (my favorite), RCBS, Redding. 

I like Lee:  factory crimp dies and use several, the Lee Pro Auto disk, Powder Through Expanding Die, Autoprime,  and even some loading dies.

If you got a Lee Challenger kit, maybe you have Lee dies too? The factory crimp is a collet type thing, a separate step and different from the roll crimp standard 3 dies sets apply.  If they are Lee dies, take some time on the Lee Precision website and you should clear things up. I don't like over crimping but with those calibers a firm crimp is wise, especially in the revolver to prevent the bullets from "backing out" Actually in recoil the case backs away from the bullet if not firmly gripped by the case.

Read the front part of that Lyman manual again - most of that info and good illustrations are there.

good to be safe.

[cwlongshot]

I described how to set up and use a standard seater/crimping die from a standard die set. A standard, three die, carbide pistol set will give you a carbide resizing/decapping die, a mouth flaring/expanding/"belling" die and a bullet seating/crimping die.

The set up for a Lee factory Crimp Die is different. From what I read, it sounds like you do not have one of these. Lee offers the FCD as a separate piece or is included with some die sets as a "extra".  As described, its a "factory" style crimp. Its powerful and is able to compress the mouth of the brass into the sides of a bullet below flush regardless of any canalure. It makes a "waist" in the middle of a bullet. IMHO there is no reason for it. A conventional roll or taper crimp is all that's ever been needed. Like I say, its a solution to a non existant problem.

I hope you find this less confusing. 

CW

[Bigeasy]

On most 3 die sets, the second, de-priming die also should be adjusted to slightly expand the case mouth at the same time as de-priming. 

Larry, what dies do you have? My three die sets have a resize/ deprime, a flair, and a bullet seating/ crimping die. Both the RCBS and the Hornady dies are like that.

You are absolutely correct - Brain fart on my end, thinking one thing, and writing something else.  Sorry to the OP if it threw you off...

[Tom W.]

You ain't the only one who has brain farts..I've been known to have to pull my foot from my mouth a time or two....

[McDerry]

Sounds like you have a lee kit with the challenger quick change press.  It is a really good press for the money.   

As you have found out balance beam scales need to be on a level solid surface to function accurately.  I actually have a Safety Scale epoxied to my work bench.  I also use a Hornady GS-1500 electronic scale, it uses the common AAA battery.

Volumetric powder measures never drop the listed charge no matter whos you buy.   


Are your dies Carbide?   If they are you don't have to invest in the tumbler if you don't mind not having shiny brass.  The reason I say if they are is because steel dies can be easily scored, but the carbides are harder then the grit and grime on the cases. 


To set my crimp dies, I leave the die backed out a full turn and adjust the seat depth rod till the bullet seats deap enough.  I then back out the rod a good 1/4"  and turn the die body in till I get the desired crimp.  I then adjust the seating rod back down tightly onto the finished round. 

[Landngroove]

You mentioned the powder measure that came with the kit. What kind of measure is this, and how are you throwing the charge ?

[McDerry]

It should be a perfect powder measure if its the challenger kit.   Pretty straight forward design and not much to monkey with once it is dialed in.

[gr8ful]

The scale he has is the Lyman xp-1000, I got the same kit and yes it is a worthless piece of chinese made junk.  If you turn it on and let it warm up for 30 min it does a little better, but if there is a fan running or florescent lights or the moon is in the wrong phase, ect, ect. calling Lyman will not result in any satisfaction, they will give you a long list of probable causes and no answers. Best bet break out the old rcbs 5-0-5 and start saving for a new RCBS digital. 

[Gdbyrd]

It should be a perfect powder measure if its the challenger kit.   Pretty straight forward design and not much to monkey with once it is dialed in.

Sorry guys been a busy busy month with work. I got my bullet seating/depth stuff figured out, so thank you there.  On to the new issues, lol:

I'm now having a lot of trouble with the powder measure from the kit.

Last night I loaded up some shells for my 460 using Win 296.

I'm having very inconsistent powder drps, like 2-4 grns difference between pulls.  If I do anything other than just turning the handle up and then down, it's way off.  If I do it forcefully or quickly or if I tap the side of it, it's always higher than the inteded dose.  I can see with tapping it as the powder would settle..but I tried tapping it everytime to see if that'd be more consistent and everytime it different.

My worry is one time I'm going to be at a max load and push or pull the handle a little harder than I did the time before and it's going to overload the case.  That's my major worry, accuray issues aside.

Would tightening up the side of the unit help at all?  I saved no time with using it as I had to measure each charge to make sure I wasn't overdoing it...sucked.

Sorry if I'm not describing this very well, some of the terminology is still new to me.  Thanks

[gr8ful]

are you still using the xp-1000? The problem could be your scale.  Mine is very inconsistent, however my powder measure is not.  It meters short grained and ball powders very well by just throwing the charge handle, longer extruded powders need a couple taps with the knocker. but make sure that you are consistent (full stroke of  the handle and two taps with the knocker each time) also make sure that everything is tight on your powder measure.  I check every tenth charge on my old balance beam scale and so far it stays about as consistent as I am.

 I deceided to get back into reloading after having everything packed away for about 15 years, and thought purchasing the Lyman Delux all in one kit from BassPro would be a good way to update my equipment.  So far I like all of the tools that came with the set except for the scale, lucky for me my old rcbs scale was located and still in good shape.

[cwlongshot]

OK,
 first off, you should NOT BE THROWING MAX LOADS!! If you want to be there, set the measure to throw a charge under max and use a powder trickler to "trickle" up to max while the powder is on the scale.

GreaTful is spot on!!  You MUST have a good scale!

Scale setup is also a critical component of your loading bench. You need good light, NO distractions. You should mount your scale at or close to the height of your head/eyes. It should be out of any breezes AND shadows. The scale needs to be stable and level. Digital is nice but a good balance beam is just fine.

When using the powder measure, it should be securely mounted to your bench or a shelf. Then fill the hopper with MORE powder then you will need. Do NOT hit or giggle the measure once the powder is in the hopper. Dump a charge and weigh it. Lift the handle as close to the same every time. If it has a knocker its to be sure all powder has dropped and isn't "bridging" in the drop tube. The trouble is every time you use it your compacting the powder in the hopper. Compacted powder will change the amounts of the drop be forcing more powder into the measured compartment. causing your weights to go up. This is part of the way that it is. Better, big name powder measures are much better than the cheapest.

Powder measures and scales are NOT places to skimp on quality.

Good luck,
 CW

[scratcherky]

If you decide to use a balance beam scale with magnetic dampening, do not use it on a metal table or a table with metal supports under it. If you do you will never get a good calibration. I almost tossed a perfectly good scale because of this.

[wncchester]

"I bought a lyman challenger kit..."

I have read this thread twice, still have no clear idea of what is being used or what isn't happening normally and wild guesses are as likely to be wrong as right.   Lyman doesn't make a Challenger kit so what do you really have???  And, what do you mean about "brass hairs?"

Speaking of the "scale that came in the kit" without clearly indentifying what it is - beam? digital? and model - leaves us without a clue to what you're experiencing.    Magnetically damped beam scales aren't influenced by steel table tops, only a strong AND  varying magentic field such as a nearby electric motor can do that.  Well, strong static charges can do it too.

We can't put "bullets" in shell holders.   

Seat handgun bullets to crimp in the cannalure and adjust the powder charge to compensate from any book OAL suggestions.  And never start a new load by going to the max on faith the books are bibles of gospel truth; they ain't.

Powder density per unit of volume varies by lots.  Therefore, no volume measure can be set to a certain point according to a chart and have the charges fall exactly as predicted; getting close to the prediction is as good as it gets; after that we must use a scale for final adjustments.  And no measure is going to drop precisely the same charge more than once in a row. 

Anyone wanting precision to a tenth will have to trickle but few reloads need to have each charge weighed so exactly, factory ammo sure isn't - pistol or rifle.  But your charge-to-charge difference of 2-4 grains is incomprehensibly huge, something is bad wrong with that measure.  Ball powders tend to measure almost a consistantly as water so that's really odd.

The Lee FCD for handguns really doesn't make a crimp differently than any other crimper.  Its the rifle FCDs that clumsy users have trouble with and that's really not the die's fault.

[scratcherky]

Magnetically dampened beam scales ARE affected by ferrous metal table tops!

[Gdbyrd]

"I bought a lyman challenger kit..."

I have read this thread twice, still have no clear idea of what is being used or what isn't happening normally and wild guesses are as likely to be wrong as right.   Lyman doesn't make a Challenger kit so what do you really have???  And, what do you mean about "brass hairs?"

Speaking of the "scale that came in the kit" without clearly indentifying what it is - beam? digital? and model - leaves us without a clue to what you're experiencing.    Magnetically damped beam scales aren't influenced by steel table tops, only a strong AND  varying magentic field such as a nearby electric motor can do that.  Well, strong static charges can do it too.

We can't put "bullets" in shell holders.   

Seat handgun bullets to crimp in the cannalure and adjust the powder charge to compensate from any book OAL suggestions.  And never start a new load by going to the max on faith the books are bibles of gospel truth; they ain't.

Powder density per unit of volume varies by lots.  Therefore, no volume measure can be set to a certain point according to a chart and have the charges fall exactly as predicted; getting close to the prediction is as good as it gets; after that we must use a scale for final adjustments.  And no measure is going to drop precisely the same charge more than once in a row. 

Anyone wanting precision to a tenth will have to trickle but few reloads need to have each charge weighed so exactly, factory ammo sure isn't - pistol or rifle.  But your charge-to-charge difference of 2-4 grains is incomprehensibly huge, something is bad wrong with that measure.  Ball powders tend to measure almost a consistantly as water so that's really odd.

The Lee FCD for handguns really doesn't make a crimp differently than any other crimper.  Its the rifle FCDs that clumsy users have trouble with and that's really not the die's fault.

I would have sworn I corrected this thread, sorry.  It's a Lee Challenger Kit, not Lyman. The scale is a beam, Lee magnetic safety scale.

The "hairs" I was referring to are small fragments of the case after I crimp them.  They look like small brass hairs.  Was asking if that's normal.

CWL made the comment about the bullets in the shell holders, I think everyone understands what he was saying.  Or at least I did.

I figured out all of my issues so far.  I think it was more familiarizing myself with the equipment and procedures. 

The powder measure has a small screw on the side of it.  I tightened that up a little and started repeating the charging process exactly each time and it is now dosing powder out very well.




Thanks for the advice on the maximum charge.  I don't really plan on doing that anytime soon.  Did the whole reloading thing for money and accuracy.

[cwlongshot]

We can't put "bullets" in shell holders. 

CWL made the comment about the bullets in the shell holders, I think everyone understands what he was saying.  Or at least I did.

Best way I can offer is to use a loaded bullet.

Put the bullet in the shell holder and run it up into the EMPTY press.

Yep, that comment was mine...and I argue, yes you can put a bullet in a shell holder.     

As most people know, the term "bullet" is universally accepted for loaded cartridge. But to a re-loader a bullet is also and more accurately called a projectile. We all know it's whats put in a firearm to make it shoot. Maybe I should have called it a cartridge, a round or a loaded round, but I called it a bullet.

My post was a response on setting up the seater die using a "BULLET" to get a starting point for a crimping/seating depth.

CW

[necchi]

"The "hairs" I was referring to are small fragments of the case after I crimp them.  They look like small brass hairs.  Was asking if that's normal."
 I was getting those too, I finally found out they was comming for my chamfer an deburr techique. I was useing too heavy a hand with the tool and cutting too much off when deburring.
 Changed to just a nice light touch and they went away. 
Actually it was the Lee tool doing the cutting during deburr of the outside neck, changed over too the Lyman tool for outside and that helped too. I don't like the Lyman tool for inside chamfer as it "chatters" when I turn it or the case. So it's Lee for inside, Lyman for outside.

[Gdbyrd]

I had another question.  When i was shooting the 460 reloads, I was noticing there was a a lot more soot like stuff on the outside of the empty cases, and there was also a ring of black on the breech.

All the .460 rounds were longer than stock shells, but I was only having the issues with the ones I reloaded.

Any ideas?