Author Topic: Custom 45LC Handi Range Report (Read 6945 times)

Dinny · « **on:** February 27, 2011, 11:39:33 AM »

My 45LC Handi is anything but normal. It has a been Duracoated in ACU Gray/Green. A gunsmith recrowned, glass and pillared bedded the forend and tuned the trigger to a crisp and glass-smooth 3lbs. I had the hammer trimmed, drilled and tapped for 8-40 threads and then a custom extension was added. The scope base and receiver were modified for 8-40 threads. This rifle should be an excellent shooter, but it's not. I have been working load development using the 250gr Hornady .452" FTX bullet and Hodgdon Lil Gun powder. I prepare the brass the same way I do rifle brass. It is trimmed to length, the primer pocket has been uniformed and the flash hole has been deburred. All my power charges are singly weighed using my RCBS Chargemaster. The OAL has been adjusted down until the action closes on the case and then I shorten just a little bit more. I use a OAL comparator to measure the length from the ogive instead of the point. According to my load notes, I started this development back in Aug 2010. I was using 17.5gr of powder and getting 1.5" groups at 50yds. Since velocity was low, I kept increasing the powder charge until today when I tried 24, 25, 25.5 and 26grs. All the cases were sooted but showed no signs of being overpressure. Groups were in the 6" range at 50yds. It seemed like every other shot went 6" low. I have since checked my scope mounts and forend. All are tight.

Any ideas?

Thanks, Dinny

jeepmann1948 · « **Reply #1 on:** February 27, 2011, 11:48:48 AM »

First I would slug the barrel . May have to go with a cast bullet of the correct size.

gomerdog · « **Reply #2 on:** February 27, 2011, 11:58:39 AM »

May have to try a different bullet. I have not have much luck with cast bullets yet in mine, but I recent loaded up some of BTB 345 gr LWNGC bullets, but have not shot them yet. I will soon hopefully. I have, however, had really decent accuracy with Hornady's 300 gr. Mag bullets loaded with a maximum charge of H110 and a mag primer.

The description of your rifle sounds interesting. Got any pics?

Good luck.

Dinny · « **Reply #3 on:** February 27, 2011, 12:06:12 PM »

Pics are coming soon, I was just out in the garage taking them with my wife's fancy new Canon EOS Rebel. I have some of those 300gr XTPs and will try them too. Before the vast majority of the work was done, the CorBon loaded 225gr Barnes XPB shot really well. It's only so so now. I have had luck in the past with cast, but they were all sized to .452". This rifle seems to have a taste for slower loads. It shoots 405gr .458" Lyman cast bullets that has been sized-down to .452" into 1/2" at 30yds, MV is 700fps.

Keep the ideas coming, I'm taking notes.

Thanks, Dinny

mechanic · « **Reply #4 on:** February 27, 2011, 01:04:44 PM »

Check the latch Dinny. My "home made" 45-70 wouldn't hit the barn from the inside until I reworked the latch. It was only touching on one side. Now it's a MOA gun.

Ben

Dinny · « **Reply #5 on:** February 27, 2011, 01:09:49 PM »

Quote from: mechanic on February 27, 2011, 01:04:44 PM

Check the latch Dinny. My "home made" 45-70 wouldn't hit the barn from the inside until I reworked the latch. It was only touching on one side. Now it's a MOA gun.
Ben

Ben,
That's a good idea that I never thought of. It was factory fitted, but as we have seen in the past, that doesn't always mean much.

Thanks, Dinny

cwlongshot · « **Reply #6 on:** February 27, 2011, 01:25:49 PM »

Dinny,
Shots impacting lower on the target is what you should see as you increase the powder and the velocity goes up.

As for the 6" groups, change something out. Either Bullet, Powder or primer. Its one load, you would be lucky to have chosen the best shooting load on the first poke!!!

Checking the latch is very good advice. Sounds like the scope should be secure. #8 are better/stronger screws. Did you de grease the holes and screws before applying lock tite to them?

Is the scope a known good one?

I'm kinda thinking the scope and base will prove OK. You just need to work on different loadings. I have found good accuracy with the FTX line of bullets thru my barrels. But that doesn't really mean anything to you. Try some other Hornady bullets like the excellent XTP line. If your not at top velocities, I have had excellent results with the Sierra 240 and Speer GD 250 grain hollow point bullets. Generally I do not like HPs for a hunting bullet from a pistol caliber ired from a rifle barrel. As the higher velocity tends to over expand and poor penetration is the result.

I have shot dozens of deer with the Speer 300 Plated SP bullet at from 1200-1700 fps. I also really like the 300 Sierra and 300 XTP bullets at 1700+ fps. I use WW296 the most for my heavy 45 Colt loadings.

I like everything I read of the Lil Gun powder... but I have yet to find a truly accurate loading with it regardless of the caliber. OH wait.. I just remembered the 22Hornet. A case full of Lil Gun and a 35G bullet nets me tiny little groups!!! LOL

Good luck,

CW

v8r · « **Reply #7 on:** February 27, 2011, 01:34:01 PM »

mine seems to like jacketed bullets lots better than lead.

Dinny · « **Reply #8 on:** February 27, 2011, 01:34:19 PM »

Pics as promised. Before anyone asks, the work was done by "The One Who Has To Remain Un-Named."

Thanks, Dinny

Sure is easy to take lottsa pictures with the new camera.

Dinny · « **Reply #9 on:** February 27, 2011, 01:45:06 PM »

CW,
I have some W296 and H110, I guess it's time to try it. I had decent luck last year with some HP jacketed muzzleloader bullets, will give them another look too.

Thanks, Dinny

Doublebass73 · « **Reply #10 on:** February 27, 2011, 02:09:11 PM »

Nice looking rifle Dinny! Like CW said, try some 300 grain jacketed. I've had good luck with the Sierra 300 grain JSP.

Dinny · « **Reply #11 on:** February 27, 2011, 02:11:49 PM »

Quote from: Doublebass73 on February 27, 2011, 02:09:11 PM

Nice looking rifle Dinny! Like CW said, try some 300 grain jacketed. I've had good luck with the Sierra 300 grain JSP.

Thank you! I still have a few little cosmetic things left to do. My Duracoater is back-logged into the next century and I'm a little concerned that since he's 69y/o, he's not gonna get much faster anytime soon.

We'll see...

Thanks, Dinny

quickdtoo · « **Reply #12 on:** February 27, 2011, 02:13:26 PM »

My money is on latch engagement/fit too.

I got good and Ok accuracy at 100yds with Lil'gun and the 250gr Speer and 250gr SST which is the same as the FTX before it was an called FTX!

The Speer was the better of the two.

Great looking Handi Dinny!

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,118881.msg1098392036.html#msg1098392036

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,124487.msg1098436387.html#msg1098436387

Dinny · « **Reply #13 on:** February 27, 2011, 02:17:57 PM »

Thanks Tim! I have a bunch of those 250gr SSTs to try.

Thanks for the suggestions everyone, you're gonna have me busy until the wee early morning hours loading for and checking my rifle.

Thanks, Dinny

Tom Threetoes · « **Reply #14 on:** February 27, 2011, 02:31:20 PM »

Good luck Dinny, I'm watching this topic with a lot of interest. I kinda have the same trouble with my CR 45. At first it was scope problems which Leupold took care of. Still it doesn't shoot to my expectations. I'm gonna try some of the ideas here as soon as the weather improves.

44 Man · « **Reply #15 on:** February 27, 2011, 05:33:40 PM »

Dinny, mine really loves my 270 gr cast swc over a load of H4227, or plinking with my pistol load of Unique over 250 gr cast bullets. I haven't found something that it didn't like yet, but I've been so happy with those, I haven't looked much farther. So I have H4227 for hunting, and Unique for fun.

44 Man

Dinny · « **Reply #16 on:** February 28, 2011, 02:04:10 PM »

Once again, you guys were right!! My latch engagement was less than 30%. I started stoning the latch last night around midnight and finished just after 0200. Now it has better than 70% engagement and shows good rub marks straight up the middle of the latch instead of on just one side/corner. I got a set of low rings in the mail today and my big fat Bushnell Trophy rifle scope still fits with the lower hammer. I will have to wait a few weeks before I can shoot it, but in the meantime I can work on my reloads for testing.

Thanks for the tips!

Thanks, Dinny

tomf52 · « **Reply #17 on:** February 28, 2011, 02:12:06 PM »

Your bullets are too small. I'm brand new to the Handi game but my newly aquired 45 Colt BC and that of a friend both slug to .453. A .452 bullet is rattling down the barrel. Get some lead with a .454 dia and I'll bet the groups tighten.

Dinny · « **Reply #18 on:** February 28, 2011, 02:16:17 PM »

Quote from: tomf52 on February 28, 2011, 02:12:06 PM

Your bullets are too small. I'm brand new to the Handi game but my newly aquired 45 Colt BC and that of a friend both slug to .453. A .452 bullet is rattling down the barrel. Get some lead with a .454 dia and I'll bet the groups tighten.

I have a few different cast bullets to try in there, but I'm almost certain they have all been sized to 452". Maybe it's time to find some other sizes.

Thanks, Dinny

tomf52 · « **Reply #19 on:** February 28, 2011, 02:22:58 PM »

Dinny - Depending on the nose and base shape of your present bullets, you could "bump" them up to a larger diameter. You need something with the same contour as the nose and base and then squeeze them in your press or even in a vise CAREFULLY to bring them up to about .456 and then size them down to .454. I know this sounds crazy but it can de done in a pinch to check if this is your problem, which I will bet it is. A friend with a lathe can cut something for you in no time.

Jimbo47 · « **Reply #20 on:** February 28, 2011, 04:24:33 PM »

Think maybe ya'll hit on the problem!

Didn't he say it shot better before the work was done, and would that have been with the longer barrel which helped stabilize the bullet a little better?

Dinny · « **Reply #21 on:** February 28, 2011, 04:57:21 PM »

Quote from: tomf52 on February 28, 2011, 02:22:58 PM

Dinny - Depending on the nose and base shape of your present bullets, you could "bump" them up to a larger diameter. You need something with the same contour as the nose and base and then squeeze them in your press or even in a vise CAREFULLY to bring them up to about .456 and then size them down to .454. I know this sounds crazy but it can be done in a pinch to check if this is your problem, which I will bet it is. A friend with a lathe can cut something for you in no time.

Although that sounds doable for someone, that someone is not me. I think I will look around a few places for some larger diameter lead cast bullets. Someone's bound to have some.

Quote from: Jimbo47 on February 28, 2011, 04:24:33 PM

Didn't he say it shot better before the work was done, and would that have been with the longer barrel which helped stabilize the bullet a little better?

It did shoot better before it was re-throated. I have no earthly idea why that is, the throats H&R cuts are more like forcing cones.

The barrel is still the original 20".

Thanks, Dinny

srussell · « **Reply #22 on:** February 28, 2011, 06:05:04 PM »

Quote from: Dinny on February 28, 2011, 04:57:21 PM

Quote from: tomf52 on February 28, 2011, 02:22:58 PM
Dinny - Depending on the nose and base shape of your present bullets, you could "bump" them up to a larger diameter. You need something with the same contour as the nose and base and then squeeze them in your press or even in a vise CAREFULLY to bring them up to about .456 and then size them down to .454. I know this sounds crazy but it can be done in a pinch to check if this is your problem, which I will bet it is. A friend with a lathe can cut something for you in no time.

Although that sounds doable for someone, that someone is not me. I think I will look around a few places for some larger diameter lead cast bullets. Someone's bound to have some.

Quote from: Jimbo47 on February 28, 2011, 04:24:33 PM
Didn't he say it shot better before the work was done, and would that have been with the longer barrel which helped stabilize the bullet a little better?

It did shoot better before it was re-throated. I have no earthly idea why that is, the throats H&R cuts are more like forcing cones. The barrel is still the original 20".
Dinny

would you like to try some 300grain LBT gas check bullets just let me know ill send you a few.

goofyoldfart · « **Reply #23 on:** March 01, 2011, 01:39:28 AM »

What I really like on GBO is how when someone has a problem with their equipment---everyone is willing to pitch in and offer help

. Not just suggestions ( that is cool though) but with equipment also

. Really Great. just my .02 worth and sorry if this is OT

. God Bless to all.

GOF aka goofyoldfart.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #24 on:** March 01, 2011, 02:23:49 AM »

Quote from: Dinny on February 27, 2011, 11:39:33 AM

I was using 17.5gr of powder and getting 1.5" groups at 50yds. Since velocity was low, I kept increasing the powder charge until today when I tried 24, 25, 25.5 and 26grs. All the cases were sooted but showed no signs of being overpressure.

In re-reading your first post I missed something I wanted to comment on... Sooted cases. This is something pretty common with the big 45. I even get it with my lighter 454 loads. Key is lighter, you see the pressurers either are not enough or do not happen quickly enough to seal off the brass in the chamber. So powder residue gets between case and chamber wall. Sometimes gets all the way out of chamber! For the most part this is sign of lower pressures. Sometimes slow building pressurers. Sometimes a better firmer crimp helps. Sometimes a mag primer. Other times simply more powder.

Lil gun isn't as problematic with liter loadings as 110/296. But in higher loads with pressure spike very rapidly. So care should be taken loading it in big cases where too much fits. This is but another reason to look for 100% density loadings.

Just my observations. Hope they inform more than confuse.

CW

Blackhawker · « **Reply #25 on:** March 01, 2011, 03:54:46 AM »

After reading through the whole thread, no one had noted the light load and the sooted cases until CW's last comment. I had the same problem with my Winchester 94 many years ago. Whenever I fired jacketed bullets from it with a moderate load (Blackhawk type load, not Colt) I'd get the worst sooted cases I'd ever seen yet when using cast bullets it was never a problem. The load in question was similar in charge but as we know, typically cast bullets develop more pressure and therefore, my cases were expanding properly in the chamber to not allow for backflow of the burning powder charge when using the cast bullet.

I'd imagine that when backflow occurs (as shown by sooted cases), it is generally inconsistent and as such, can probably be seen printed out on targets as inconsistencies as well.

Dinny, although the latch engagement is probably a bigger factor in your accuracy issue, you might check the load and try to go heavier in order to develop the right pressure so that your cases expand properly. Another option is to use a softer brand of brass OR switch to gas checked cast bullets OR, perhaps switch to a different powder. (H-110, 296, 2400) I use HS-6 in my 45 Colt loads and recently have been tinkering with 2400. The 2400 has been showing itself to be quite accurate.

By the way, that's one good lookin' carbine!

Blackhawker

fye2k · « **Reply #26 on:** March 01, 2011, 04:35:56 AM »

I don't know a lot about this, but one common suggestion seems to be missing here: did you try shooting it with the foreend removed? The pictures show that the gunsmith made some radical changes to the foreend. As much attention as we pay bedding, free-floating, pillar bedding or otherwise monkeying around with the foreend, spending two minutes to rule that out would be time well spent.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #27 on:** March 01, 2011, 05:23:03 AM »

For a powder change, I'd be using Reloder 7 after reading Paco's article.

Tim

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/45coltlevergun.htm

Dinny · « **Reply #28 on:** March 01, 2011, 06:29:14 AM »

I hope that trying different powders and/or bullets will give different results and do away with the sooting. I'm not sure how much more powder I can get in the case, I think 26grs of Lil Gun is approaching 100%. ?? The Re7 looks promising, but I need to use up some of my current powders (H110 and WW296) before I buy more.

Thanks, Dinny

quickdtoo · « **Reply #29 on:** March 01, 2011, 06:37:40 AM »

Depends on the COL you're using, I loaded mine longer than recommended to take advantage of the powder capacity and shorten freebore, 1.673" for the Speer and 1.935" for the SST, both are .010" off the lands. I also went 1gr over Hodgdon Lil'gun 250gr XTP TC/Ruger data due to the longer COL.

Tim