Author Topic: Problem with purchasing Beartooth or Cast Performance LBT bullets for trial.  (Read 3014 times)

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Offline Veral

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  For some time I've been haveing an issue nearly every time I run a batch of molds, with customers who send me a sample bullet from one of the above companies which they want me to duplicate.  They are marked with one of my designations, and these two manufactures are claiming that THEY are LBT or affiliates of LBT, but many of their bullets are from molds that were made by others.  I do not have ANY affiliation with either of them, and haven't for nearly 15 years!

  Please understand that both of these outfits do offer LBT bullet designs from molds that I made, but not all their bullets which are marked with LBT designations are of my design.  In their beginnings I set both companies up to run exclusively with LBT molds and both promised to use only LBT bullet lube, and with my sanction, they could say they were selling LBT bullets.  Both have wandered from from from their promises, and neither uses LBT lube.  They are both interlopers riding on LBT laurels, which I don't like, but could easily live with if it didn't throw mud in my face continually, demanding that I go into detailed explainations with customers who try their bullets then want a mold just like it. ---  If I make a mold with the designation they were given when they bought the bullets, they will be getting something far different than what they have 'tested'.

  Both are sources of cast bullets, with reasonable quality, but becaue neither use LBT lube, neither are selling ANYTHING that will perform to LBT standards, even the bullets of interest are of authentic LBT design!   In other words, if you want to see if an LBT bullet can make your gun work, the only sure way is to get a mold, use LBT bullet lube, and if necessary lap your gun.  You cannot get closer to guaranteed success on the first go around, and won't be wasting money on bullets that aren't what I'll be delivering if I make you a mold.  Nor bullets with iffy performance.

  So, if you should buy bullets from either in the future, go ahead and send me a sample to copy, but please keep in mind what I've just written, and make my life easy, and increase your chances of getting what you are asking for, be telling me where the sample came from when you place the order.  Give your phone number and I'll call if I see a problem and we'll have the issue under wraps in a few minutes.

   It is often said, by uninjured parties, that copying is the highest form of flattery.        Maybe so in some peoples minds, but for the person they are walking on to make their own life easy,  it sure isn't a compliment or easy to take, nor does ANY copier ever intend his theft  to be flattery, or a help to anyone but himself!

  There are several small operators around the country who are offering what they call LBT bullets, and I don't know of any of them who are not,  nor what lube they are using.  Montana Bullet works sells MANY LBT designs and uses LBT lube on them.  They also sell other designs, and I believe might be using some other lower cost lube on some, but they will tell you straight up exactly what you are gettng, and their quality is top notch.   I'm NOT bashing any other supplier other than the two above, as I have had NO other bad reports,  or similar problems copying counterfit designs from any other cast bullet dealer claiming they sell LBT designs. 

   Please understand that I'm not bashing either of these to hurt their business, as I know at least one has innocent kids to feed, and they don't deserve to set at an empty table.  Also, I'm not trying to strum up business, as I have plenty, and don't care to stack up a pile of hard earned money which I'll never need. 

Veral Smith deceased 1/19/25

Offline Terbltim

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Hey Veral,
I'm glad you raised this subject and gave it the fresh-air it needed.
I have bumped into both Beartooth and Cast Performance bullets being sold in gunshows, (usually a not-quite-full package.)
The seller had tried them and was now selling them for reasons of his own.
These guys usually say "they shoot great!"
I could never get past "the rest of the [untold] story" as to why they were being offered for sale with just a few missing from tha package. hmmm

You mentioned Montana Bullet Works which I stumbled onto a couple years ago.
Dave (owner/operator) told me when I saw the LBT designation it meant he was using molds he'd obtained from you and that he used LBT lube. That settled it for me.
His on-line catalog indicates the Mfr of the mold for each of the bullets he offers.
(I never thought to ask if he used other lube for other Mfr's bullets, never would have considered that.)
Anyway, I began using Dave's bullets as a test platform for deciding what bullet molds to get from you.
So far that has proven to be a good plan.
The only caveat being that the Nose-to-crimp (NTC) length he offers is [sometimes] a little shorter than I'd want when I order my own mold. That's not a real obstacle to deciding if I like that weight & design.
I tell the guys around here to buy from Dave if they don't want to cast their own

An aside on this subject that some of your other readers might have experienced...
My local crowd likes these LBT bullets [and lube] once they try them.
For awhile they would press me to sell them some every now and then.
But it gets to be a bit of a nuisance selling off bullets that I went to the trouble to make for my own purposes.
Here is how to bring it to a halt, almost.
I now charge what the going rate is, including the cost of the shipping!
The local guys were happy to buy up all I'd sell them ... at a substantially reduced rate.
Once there wasn't any more savings most of these guys begin to do their own homework.
I still have a couple of the faithful that think getting them locally [from me] is somehow better than buying through the mail. sigh
Lucky for us all, those are the few regular shooting buddies I have and I don't really mind now that its only a couple friends.
Casting bullets is a lot of work and my hat is off to anyone that can produce enough decent bullets to get a profit from it.
I did look into it and don't see how they do it as a primary source of income.
The public wants the bullets to be "perfect".
It takes more work than I'm willing to give it.

I'll say this about LBT bullet lube, Veral, when you're ready to quit the bussiness, we can all learn to live without a source of your molds but you've got to sell that lube formula to someone so we don't have to do without it.
Once it is tried nothing else will satisfy the cast bullet shooter.
It ain't right to get us all hooked on LBT Blue lube and then just stop offering it!
Please give that idea some thought!

Cheers!


"Stop global whining!"

Offline Veral

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  Thank you Terbitum.  I've given some thought as to how to pass my lube formula along but never came to any satisfactory way.  You see, it is very much a part of this business, which isn't a million dollar maker, but just a decent wage earner, with everything I do and sell.  So there is no way that I would sacrafice my lube formula while I'm still selling it.

  It is a very complex formula, and both of the above named crooks had the audacity to tell me that they tried to analize it so they could copy it, but both have failed, and probably others have done the same.  It took us $30,000 (30 years ago) and 6 months of full time experimentation to develop it, so there is no question that we deserve to own it, and I feel real good that some moocher hasn't been able to steal it.   I have protected the formula from duplication by the strongest method possible.  Secret, with just my wife and I knowing what's in it.  Anything of this nature that is written on paper will sooner or later be found and stolen by someone.
Veral Smith deceased 1/19/25

Offline pourboy

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I tried Beartooths bullet lube once several years ago. I was having success with another brand, but wanted to try LBT Blue, which wasn't available at the time. The stuff I got was an utter failure for me, but at least it was blue, so they got that part right.

Offline Veral

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  Very interesting, as this is the first time I've heard that Beartooth was selling bullet lube.  On the bullet samples that have come to me to copy, from both places, the lube looks exactly like Magma's commercial lube.  If you peel a bit up out of the groove with a thumnail you'll notice there is no smell and light comes through it a little bit. 

  LBT lube has a distinct smell, quite strongly of beeswax, which is  close to half the formula.  What is on their bullets is softened parifin of some sort.
Veral Smith deceased 1/19/25

Offline Terbltim

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Hey Veral,
I like hearing that someone paid good money to steal your formula and failed.
I wonder if it's wrong of me to take pleasure [on your behalf] in the idea that it might have been an expensive failure.
But I digress.
I wanted to add or emphasize that I hope you'd "sell" the formula when you quit the business.
I can't think of any good reason for you to let go of it until/unless you've decided its time to stop...if ever.
Maybe leave the formula to an heir (or something.)
No need to make any declaration about it for the public.
It's just a little scary to think we might have to go back to "brand-X" one day.
Your security of the formula is the right way to do it!
Good on you!
"Stop global whining!"

Offline crash87

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Hey Veral,
I like hearing that someone paid good money to steal your formula and failed.
I wonder if it's wrong of me to take pleasure [on your behalf] in the idea that it might have been an expensive failure.
But I digress.
I wanted to add or emphasize that I hope you'd "sell" the formula when you quit the business.
I can't think of any good reason for you to let go of it until/unless you've decided its time to stop...if ever.
Maybe leave the formula to an heir (or something.)
No need to make any declaration about it for the public.
It's just a little scary to think we might have to go back to "brand-X" one day. Your security of the formula is the right way to do it!
Good on you!

You don't have to go with brand X, Terbltim, When primers were scarce, what did people do? When certain Powder was getting tough to find, what did people do? Brass? WHEEL WEIGHTS? what did people do....................?.Start hoarding my friend, it's there for the asking  ;D Crash87

Offline Veral

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  I'm wrapping up my 70th orbit of the sun, on April 30, but my health is excellent and I don't see any reason why I'd have to stop my business for a long time yet, if natural causes were the only concern for my termination!  -- For example, saturday evening I finished up carving three large log crosses out of three 100 foot tamerack trees, with a chainsaw.  These for a local church.  I get stiffer, quicker, and get over it slower than I did 20 years ago and more, but I can still do it for more hours at a time than many men 30 years younger, and enjoy it.  (Running heavy professional sized chainsaws, that is.)  It isn't a job for the sickly!  In other words, I'm gonna have to fade a lot more before I quit running LBT!

  I see the most serious concern for us Americans is what the government is doing to bring us down to socialism, and is doing at break neck speed.  We are real close to having no trucking, business, or even capability of producing our own food.  And the demise has been very carefully planned and orchestrated for at least the last 100 years.  --  My almost 5 years in prison starting in mid 1999 was nothing more and nothing less than a facist attempt to knock a teacher out of the saddle, though they told the world I was a criminal of coarse.  Look around you.  They hate ANY small business, and especially a gun oriented one.  Four seperate government men  told me, off the record of coarse, when they let me out of the pen, that I was the #1 most wanted man in the US because of my knowledge.  Then warned me, DON"T start your business up again! That is ALL you went to prison for!    ------------    I have bad hearing though, and an awful stiff neck just below those deaf ears!   I hope to God that every one of you readers feel the same as I do and duke it out when your turn comes! 
Veral Smith deceased 1/19/25

Offline pourboy

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  Very interesting, as this is the first time I've heard that Beartooth was selling bullet lube.  On the bullet samples that have come to me to copy, from both places, the lube looks exactly like Magma's commercial lube.  If you peel a bit up out of the groove with a thumnail you'll notice there is no smell and light comes through it a little bit. 

  LBT lube has a distinct smell, quite strongly of beeswax, which is  close to half the formula.  What is on their bullets is softened parifin of some sort.

I started out as a loyal Beartooth follower, and used to chat with Marshall a bit on line through their forum.. I told him I was having issues with lube & he offered to sell me as much as  I wanted. I bought several sticks, but it just didn't work out for me. I went back to Blue Angel, where I stayed until it got way more expensive than it was worth. Now days I make my own, mostly because I'm an uncontrollable tinkerer. I plan to do more rifle work this year and will be using LBT Blue because I know my home brew isn't up to higher speed.