Author Topic: Confused about misfires (Read 1264 times)

Bullseye · « **on:** February 27, 2011, 03:42:19 PM »

Bought a used Contender last weekend. That makes frame #6. I took it out today with a barrel that I was shooting on another frame a few weeks ago. It failed to fire 4 out of 5 times. The failed to fires did not even dent the primer.

My first thought would be the lugs were not activating everything right because the gun is dirty or the lugs need work. But what confuses me is if you cock the gun and pull the trigger the safety that is in front of the hammer drops out of the way and the hammer falls all the way to frame pushing the firing pin. I always assume if the lugs did not activate everything the hammer would not fall all the way to the firing or it would partially hit and leave a light dent in the primer.

Been studying the exploded few trying to see what I am missing. Can someone enlighten me?

By the way, I know I should have tried another barrel but it started raining.

southernutah · « **Reply #1 on:** February 27, 2011, 06:10:32 PM »

do a serious cleaning, all the way down if you know how.

Keith L · « **Reply #2 on:** February 27, 2011, 11:30:32 PM »

+1 on the serious cleaning, then try another barrel. My first Contender did the same thing, then I sent it to TC. When I saw the repair they did the next barrel I got that missfired got lugs polished and problem gone. If the frame is dirty that most likely is it. If not polish the bolts and try it again.

Junior1942 · « **Reply #3 on:** February 28, 2011, 12:43:35 AM »

If you don't full-length resize the cases, then do.

Bullseye · « **Reply #4 on:** February 28, 2011, 07:11:01 AM »

Yes I can take it apart and clean it. Yes I can polish the lugs.

But my real question was:

What confuses me is if you cock the gun and pull the trigger the safety that is in front of the hammer drops out of the way and the hammer falls all the way to frame pushing the firing pin. I always assume if the lugs did not activate everything the hammer would not fall all the way to the firing or it would partially hit and leave a light dent in the primer.

I am looking for the missing peice of the puzzle for my own information about why the gun seems to be functioning properly but still not firing. Is there another mechanism other than the safety block in front of the hammer that keeps the gun from firing.? When I close the barrel without a round in it, cock the hammer, pull the trigger and let the hammer down it goes all the way to the frame and pushes the firing pin, so why would the primer not even have a small dent in it with a round in it.

I am sure a cleaning will fix the problem, just trying to fully understand the mechanism.

P.A. Myers · « **Reply #5 on:** February 28, 2011, 02:42:40 PM »

Is this a G2? Early Contenders are a bit different.

P.A.

Bullseye · « **Reply #6 on:** February 28, 2011, 03:04:23 PM »

Original Contender, Easy Open Frame. Guess that is kind of important with G2 now in the mix.

Richard P · « **Reply #7 on:** February 28, 2011, 06:13:38 PM »

Are you sure the firing pin is being pushed forward ? Firing pins do break and the springs can be compressed. If you have a selector on the hammer; is it fully in either fire position ? It isnt in neutral is it ? Is the hammer spring strong ?

Keith L · « **Reply #8 on:** February 28, 2011, 11:40:31 PM »

There are many things it could be. The most likely is that your locking bolts are not engaging fully. I can't give you chapter and verse on how or why, but the worst case with bolts is that the hammer will not cock. On several barrels my frames would cock, but I had missfires. That is the easiest thing to check, and I would go there first. The other easy check is if it has a hammer extension. If so take it off and try it. They frequently cause misfires.

David D. · « **Reply #9 on:** March 01, 2011, 01:46:27 AM »

My first guess would be locking bolts not fully engaging. Second guess would be head space not tight for the barrel frame combo.

Dezynco · « **Reply #10 on:** March 01, 2011, 01:51:18 AM »

I would check to see if the firing pin is broken. You can do this by removing the barrel. Take a pencil or something similar, use it to trip the interlock so you can cock the hammer without the barrel. The interlock is the bow-tie looking piece that the locking bolts are supposed to engage. Let the hammer down and look to see if there is indeed a firing pin peeping out of the firing pin block when the hammer is down. If the firing pin is broken, you'll need to send it out for repair, I don't think TC will send you the parts to fix it yourself anymore.

If the firing pin is not broken, then you probably have a problem with the locking bolts not fully engaging the interlock. Clean the frame around the interlock to make sure there's not any grime. Then give the locking lugs of the barrel you are using a good cleaning. Lightly oil everyting.

If this does not solve the problem, then you might have to stone the locking bolts a bit to make them fully engage. I'll bet that you might have the same problem with other barrels as well. I don't think you have a headspace issue, that will usually affect accuracy, not cause the gun to misfire completely.

P.A. Myers · « **Reply #11 on:** March 01, 2011, 06:19:32 AM »

Changing firing pins is a bitch, usually requires a tool to knock it out. If you dont know how old your hammer spring is , replace it. They break. Surface 'C' can cause mis-fires by not allowing the hammer to fully seat.

HHI-7420 · « **Reply #12 on:** March 02, 2011, 07:00:18 AM »

This may pee someone off, but read what the guy is saying. It cocks-lug problem doubtful. He say safety on front of hammer drops out of the way-HUH? How? That makes no sense to me. Seems like a headspace or firing pin problem only. Pat
Please don't throw rocks-I live in a glass house.

Curtis · « **Reply #13 on:** March 02, 2011, 10:38:47 AM »

HH I'm not throwing any rocks here, but anyone who has formed brass and gotten the shoulder a bit too far forward has experienced exactly what Bullseye has described because of incomplete lockup. Poor barrel to frame match can also cause it. The locking bolt not fully engaging the little "butterfly" safety will cause light primer strikes or failure to fire with all other functions of the gun being normal. It's one of those "Contender" things that we all learn sooner or later.

It could very well be a different problem, but don't dismiss incomplete lockup out of hand. Stoning the bolts as mentioned will correct the problem most of the time.

Curtis

HHI-7420 · « **Reply #14 on:** March 03, 2011, 07:34:24 AM »

Curtis, once the hammer is cocked, shouldn't the hit on the primer be controled by the spring pushing the hammer (unless there is gunk in the action slowing down the hammer)? I understand the action closing bit-forgot about it at the time. Pat

Curtis · « **Reply #15 on:** March 03, 2011, 10:17:16 AM »

Shoot, now you got me wondering if my memory is playing tricks on me. I'm just trying to relay what I've experienced, I don't have a Contender schematic in my head

. I'm working 12 hour days this week, but I may be curious enough now to get a frame out when I get home this evening and play around. Maybe I can duplicate the problem and clear my own mind (not to mention my earlier post).

Curtis

Bullseye · « **Reply #16 on:** March 03, 2011, 02:48:42 PM »

Well I fixed it.

The answer to my main question was found in One Good Shot, the TCA magazine. And that was that the only safety is the hammer block, which as I said was functioning fine when cocking the gun and letting the hammer down slowly. Now to determine why it was failing to fire.

The barrel I first used that started this post was a 45 Colt that I bought used a few months ago and had shot about 10 times on another frame. I tried 7 other barrels on the frame tonight and they all fired. So now forget cleaning the frame and look at the lugs on the 45 Colt. I just happened to have a spare set of lugs laying on the bench so I decided to change them. Took the old out and when I put the new ones in they bound up tight enough that one would not move. Measured both and they were only .003 different. Started playing with the old ones and they would bind up also. This is an old hi-luster barrel but looks like new other than light frame marks and a couple edges on the lug are rough like the barrel was drug across something ruff. There was a burr on the edge that was binding the lugs SOMETIMES. Run a file across it a couple times and they now slide smooth.

This is why it fired once on the frame. It is also why when I was playing with it the hammer interlock was falling and the hammer pushing the firing pin (which was not broke). It was also why it fired on the other frame. It caused a problem when the lugs stuck but the next time you opened and close it they might have broke free an then it worked fine.

Moral of the story is, sometimes it pays to know how something works before you just randomly stone lugs, tear apart and clean or change parts. The problem might not be what you think is the obvious.

Curtis · « **Reply #17 on:** March 03, 2011, 02:53:41 PM »

Well, my tests were inconclusive. By inserting ever increasing thickness feeler guages in the barrel to frame gap and closing the action I was able to cause a misfire by incomplete lockup. However it was because the hammer block failed to fall and this does not duplicate the original poster's symptoms. Bullseye said his hammer block was falling but he still got failure to fire or even dent the primer. hmmmmmmm. $:-\$

Curtis

P.S. Glad youi got it Bullseye.

Dezynco · « **Reply #18 on:** March 04, 2011, 01:08:48 AM »

Glad you got it fixed Bullseye! I hope we were of some help, or at least got you headed in the right direction. That barrel-to-frame lockup can cause you to pull you hair out. If you continue shooting and collecting Contenders and barrels, you will eventually run into this problem again, I'll guarantee it! It's just one of those little glitches that we've all come to know about and deal with. I've run into the locking bolt problem about 5 times, especially when using older barrels on G2 frames. Simple fix if you know what the problem is.

BTW, don't throw those locking bolts away, you still might polish them and use them someday! Look at the sticky at the top of the forum for more information about this. It's such a common problem that the Moderator made it a sticky!

Bullseye · « **Reply #19 on:** March 04, 2011, 02:05:10 AM »

I have been very lucky with lug problems. I have probably had 30 barrels and 7 frames over the years and only had issues with mixing and matching stuff twice.

This was one time, with the burr on the lug. Not sure I even count this since I did not need to do anything to the lug other than make it work smoothly.

The other was with my one G2 frame. Any of the new barrels with what I refer to as the G2 lug would work and none of my 7 others would not. Rather than stone the lug I ordered a new G2 lug from T/C to put in the one older barrel I use on that frame and it cured the problem (ordering a new one vs stoning was more of a test than anything). I guess my beef with this is they are supposed to be interchangeable but my 7 older barrels will not work on that frame without stoning or changing the lug. That is not really interchangeable in my opinion and 7 out 7 is not even partial interchangeability.

The lug thing is an issue though and since I have so many of these things I obviously like them so you just deal with the problem and go on.

Bullseye · « **Reply #20 on:** March 04, 2011, 02:35:18 AM »

Was just thinking that the problem with this barrel almost had to cause some problems for the previous owner. Maybe that is why I got a straight 45 Colt barrel for less than it should have been and way less than I sold my last one for. I always regretted selling it which is why I bought another. I am not going to hot load this one which is what got me disgruntled with my other one. Just going to enjoy normal level colt loads in it and get the bigger stuff out if I need something more.

Curtis · « **Reply #21 on:** March 04, 2011, 07:15:27 AM »

Three of my frames are manufactured around '79 to '80 and are pre easy-open. My only stainless easy-open frame is dedicated to carbine duty only. This is my method for avoiding lock-up problems and has worked well so far.

My older frames will accept any barrel that I have tried on them and functioned flawlessly, whether solid locking bolt or split locking bolt. Not so, my stainless frame. I had to whack it with a rubber hammer to get it to release a 10" solid lug 22lr barrel.

Like you said, I love my Contenders so having to stick with a work-around does not put me off.

Curtis