Author Topic: The Judge Handgun... Good Self Defense Handgun or Not??  (Read 31577 times)

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Offline reliquary

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Re: The Judge Handgun... Good Self Defense Handgun or Not??
« Reply #150 on: February 17, 2012, 12:05:07 PM »
I don't remember what I posted, or where, and am too lazy to search for it. 
 
I bought one of the early Tracker .410/.45s, the 4410 IIRC, in 6.5".  It was horribly loud in .410, even outdoors, punished my antique hands, and the few times I tried it with .45 loads, it was woefully inaccurate with anything I tried in it.  Maybe 8" groups at 20 yards?  After I realized that I could do better with snake loads in an ASM birdshead for upclose varmints, I sold the Tracker.
 
A year or so ago, I bought the Smith Governor.  Haven't shot any .410s in it but love it with the Colt and ACP loads; I got it for the fact that I can shoot both or either without changing the cylinder.  It does 3-4" groups at 20-25 yards over a rest and I'm okay with that.
 
Does anyone know if there's been a side-by-side comparison of the Judge and Governor?
 
 

Offline S.B.

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Re: The Judge Handgun... Good Self Defense Handgun or Not??
« Reply #151 on: February 17, 2012, 03:23:23 PM »
reliquary, So for you anyhow, manufacter makes a difference?
Steve
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Offline PAHUnter04

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Re: The Judge Handgun... Good Self Defense Handgun or Not??
« Reply #152 on: February 17, 2012, 05:17:58 PM »
Reliquary:
 
Take a look at the March 2012 issue of American Rifleman. On page 44 there is a nice review of the S&W Governor.
 
As per SB... I must be a Joker because I own a Taurus Judge. And for you guys saying why shoot a pattern of 5 inches rather than a single bullet. Well because you have (4) single bullets spread across a chest cavity with a four to one chance of doing vital damage to your opponent, with ONE SHOT.
 
Now remember this Governor S&W revolver ONLY has a 2.5 in barrel. On page 46 it will give you the ballistics of the Federal .410 ...000 Buckshot (4) Pellets I have been talking about. At 12 feet these were measured with an Oehler 35P Chrony at 1,198 FPS Average...Energy FT Lbs was 930.... These are .36 caliber brass plated balls.  Average spread at 5 yards, 15 feet was 4 inches. Like I stated at 7 yards, as per FBI statistics 95% of all gunfights are 7 yards or less. The spread is like five inches. Oh by the way, they have less penetration inside a home than lets say a 9mm or .45 ACP.
 
Oh wait...getting hit with this load is just a joke. Not t mention my 45 Colt handloads of a 200 grain hard cast SWC at 1000 FPS would surely get a chuckle when being hit mid ship.
 
The Remington 000 Buck is a little bit faster 1212 FPS ..953 EFT lbs. and a 8 in. spread at 5 yards.
 
I use mine mainly as a camping gun. It can be used for mountain rattlers #4 Shot, black bear defense in a pinch .45 Colt, or two legged vermin, 000 Buckshot. Most of the time it is loaded with two rounds of Federal Buckshot and three rounds of Colt .45's
 
Is the Judge heavy, yeah...is it semi ugly...yeah, is it fun to shoot ....hell yeah.
 
Let your wallet and your conscious be your guide..
 
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Offline williamlayton

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Re: The Judge Handgun... Good Self Defense Handgun or Not??
« Reply #153 on: February 18, 2012, 12:41:42 AM »
I have stayed out of this frey---well, until now.
I have no problem with a Judge, Govenor or any .410 handgun for self defense---it will be in an instance and who cares what happens in an instance--if it is not to you.
On a pratical standpoint is my thought.
My daughter--if you have read here enough, you will be reading old news--bare with me--was advised by a police officer to get a Judge.
We looked and it was big and heavy--she did not like it---I got her a .327mag S&W.
Now she had never shot ANYTHING--liberal girl--and we went shooting. She took to shooting like a duck to water---I was amazed--AMAZED--your results may vary.
She shot the little .327 anc could hit the pie plate at 20 yards (after shooting a box of K-22) and then on to the .327. Rcoil and sound did not distract her. that was amazing in itself as the .327 is LOUD.
Then she shot the M28 .357 and loved it--too much--now there are two  :( .
I would not mind if she owned a Judge, at this point. You be the judge (pun intended), it is yourownself that is responsible for yourownself.
I like everything I own in a push comes to shove situation.
For plinking/range work I would stay away from it or the snubbies or pocket pistola's---they are not fun for me.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline saddlebum

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Re: The Judge Handgun... Good Self Defense Handgun or Not??
« Reply #154 on: February 18, 2012, 03:17:38 AM »
Just the fact that there are a mulitude threads/disscussions/articles out there about the Judge's effectiveness as a self defense or practical handgun, raises an eyebrow or two. Why all the disscussion if it is not "questionable"? Why do so many people have to defend the Judge as a practical alternative for a self defense weapon? Why does it's usefulness even come into question in the first place if it's not limited in it's usefulness and effectiveness or practicality? I'll just stick with guns and calibers that there is no question as to their practicality and usefulness and spend more time shooting, with confidence, instead of wasting time arguing the effectiveness of my choice of weapon and trying to prove to someone that I made the right choice. Or trying to come up with or defend the nitch catagory it falls into.
But to each his own..................
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Offline reliquary

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Re: The Judge Handgun... Good Self Defense Handgun or Not??
« Reply #155 on: February 18, 2012, 06:53:43 AM »
S.B.:
 
No, manufacturer makes no difference to me.  I got the Governor for its versatility...shooting both the Colt and ACP loads out of the same cylinder. Those are the two pistol rounds that I load for. It also turns out to be twice as accurate as the Tracker thing I had, which is even better.  I may never put a .410 through it, although it could conceivably turn out to be a good survival choice.
 
Smith, via email, told me they had no intention of fielding longer barrels for the Gov.  May have to cobble one up. 
 
I live on a medium-sized public lake and am plagued with snakes.  The .410 idea sounded good but didn't work out in practice.  My SA clone with homemade snake loads, or even CCI, works well enough for what I need, and is easier to carry.
 
What I really wanted was a Smith 25/625/Mountain Gun with interchangeable Colt and ACP cylinders, but I didn't/don't have that much money.  I got a good deal on the Governor and other than the fact that it looks clunky, I love it.  It isn't my first choice for self-defense.
 
 

Offline PAHUnter04

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Re: The Judge Handgun... Good Self Defense Handgun or Not??
« Reply #156 on: February 18, 2012, 01:03:48 PM »
Hi Guys:
 
Great input as usual.  ;) William I am glad your daughter is doing so well with that revolver. My wife went with a .38 Colt Detective Special and that is her favorite. My daughter is asking to learn to shoot but I don't know how serious she is. She wants a .380 auto with a crimson trace laser on it, but wants Dad to buy it....LOL We'll see. I tease her and say when she said I DO... to her husband...I said I'm done... just kidding of course.
 
My grandsons at age 12 and 10 are all ready shooting my two .22 cal Ruger handguns. One Super Single Six and my old Ruger Mark II. I took the oldest, Christian, deer hunting this year and he bagged an eight point buck .  ;D I don't know who was more excited me or the kid.
 
I guess you can say I am defending the Judge a bit, only because it is a unique handgun in a sense. I don't own another Taurus handgun so I really can't comment on service and other wise reliability.
 
Sometimes unique weapons get a bad rap from people with just opinions that never owned or fired the handgun. :P
 
Thanks Guys... Be ready and shoot straight.
 
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Offline Mike in Virginia

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Re: The Judge Handgun... Good Self Defense Handgun or Not??
« Reply #157 on: February 20, 2012, 01:59:33 PM »
I'm certain the Judge was marketed toward hunters who wanted to shoot sick rabbits up close.  I think that information is printed on the barrel.  "For Use Against Sick  or Elderly Rabbits--Maximum  Effective Range, Five Feet." 

Offline PAHUnter04

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Re: The Judge Handgun... Good Self Defense Handgun or Not??
« Reply #158 on: February 20, 2012, 03:27:13 PM »
I don't know about sick or elderly rabbits, but I took the head off a six foot mountain rattler last year at 8 feet. Also a copper head that was to close for cumfort.  :P
 
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Offline reliquary

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Re: The Judge Handgun... Good Self Defense Handgun or Not??
« Reply #159 on: February 21, 2012, 04:15:23 AM »
As I said, my purpose in buying the "pre-Judge" Tracker was to use it for snakes.  We bought a lot on a medium-sized public lake and I had to clear out over 300' of brush, weeds, reeds, snags, and debris from the shoreline. At times I was waist-deep and stuck it in an old shoulder-holster...lotta barrel hanging out the bottom. It accompanied me on several of those expeditions and was really effective on cottonmouths, out to about 10'.
 
It was chambered for the 2 1/2" shells. I used #6 and #7 1/2 because I had some of each on hand.  I never did a test-pattern, didn't count the holes in the snakes, and don't remember how many I killed before I concocted some loads for a .45 SA clone.  The .45 was (and still is) just about as effective, not nearly as loud, and a lot easier on the hand.
 
 I sold the Tracker to a neighbor who wanted it for HIS snake problem, who then sold it to someone else for THEIR snake problem...do we see a pattern here?...I hope it doesn't find its way back home.   8) 
 
There are niches for the Judge.  Some will be happy with it, others unhappy.  If you don't like it, don't get one; if it gets you out of a tight spot, then it's a good thing.

Offline 1895gunner

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Re: The Judge Handgun... Good Self Defense Handgun or Not??
« Reply #160 on: June 10, 2012, 02:19:11 AM »
Guess I'm a joke also for owning a judge. I read some of your posts and think what kind of forum did I join? I hunt Florida where rattle snakes and water moccasins are everywhere you step. Would I also use it for home defense, absolutely.
 
Why the haters? I'm not here to judge anyone else, geeez.
 
1895gunner
 

Offline Lonegun1894

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Re: The Judge Handgun... Good Self Defense Handgun or Not??
« Reply #161 on: June 10, 2012, 03:45:15 AM »
I know this will start a firestorm, but here is my opinion.  I think the folks at Taurus got drunk and decided to design a handgun which took all the weaknesses of a shotgun and a handgun and combined them in the Judge.  Let me explain.  The weakness of a handgun is the generally weaker ammo it fires when compared to a rifle or shotgun.  The weakness of most shotguns is the decreased range capability as compared to rifles.  Due to federal laws, they were limited to a caliber of .50 or smaller, and since they were designing a handgun, the law requiring them to rifle the thing also applies, so they followed it as any of us would.  Here is the problem, the only common shotgun shell they could chamber it for is .410, which is a gauge generally reserved for good shooters and even then for small game, not man size threats.  Strike one.  Next, the rifling.  Anyone here who has fired birdshot or buckshot through a rifled shotgun knows the sorry excuse for patterns that are achieved with such a contraption.  These guns require slugs to work well, not shot.  So with birdshot, these guns are useless except for the snake that you almost stepped on or maybe a rat/mouse at 5-10 yds.  Buckshot improves on this range, but still opens up to patterns big enough that I wouldn't trust it to stay on a human silhouette out past 5yds due to concerns of shooting innocents who may be on the other side.  For a slug, well, you may as well load with a .45 Colt, right?  The .45 Colt case is just over an inch, with the chambers on these guns being either 2.5" or 3", leaving us with a bullet that has to jump at least an inch before it gets to the rifling after it leaves the case, and that is assuming you have a 2.5" chambered gun which would be the better of the two options in this case at least as far as shooting .45 Colt goes IF you're interested in accuracy.  Please dont get me wrong, .45 Colt is one of my favorite calibers, but only if chambered in a firearm that allows it to reach ots potential, which the Judge doesn't due to being limited to low pressure loads and the LOOOONG bullet jump in the chamber which causes it to lose more power due to the jump and blowby.
 
So you have a very interesting contraption which is by design inaccurate, weak powered, and too bulky to make it worthwhile for anything other than the "neat" factor.  And that is before you get to the matter of almost every single one I have seen epople bring to the range locking up for some reason while the shooter was trying to shoot it after a few shots.  I am hoping Taurus has addressed the locking up issue as it is a reliability problem, but I won't be buying one to find out.  I figure each of us needs to decide if we want a handgun or a shotgun, or even better, buy one of each for the things that each is excellent for--but quit trying to think we will get both out of one gun.  I would like to have both capabilities in one as much as anyone, but Taurus attempted to tackle an impossible project and very obviously failed as expected.  To be fair, they were handicapped by several non-sense laws, but they should have been smart enough to figure out that they were going for an impossible goal and not put it out on the market where it will do more harm than good.  Now if the law changes and they come out with a smoothbore version with a choke, I might be interested in it as a .410 only use gun, or even more if they were to come out with a 20ga smoothbore version, but due to the current laws, that isn't going to happen.

Offline Savage

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Re: The Judge Handgun... Good Self Defense Handgun or Not??
« Reply #162 on: June 10, 2012, 05:30:52 AM »
Not a fan of the Judge, but apparently there are multitudes of them. If the design engineers at Taurus were drunk when they designed the pistol, they should drink more often. As it turns out, the Judge is one hot seller for Taurus.  Seeing the success of the Judge,  S&W came out with their own shotgun/pistol, which is very similar to the Taurus. Seems there's enough market to warrant significant investment in the product. That doesn't happen unless there's demand . I say, the more the merrier!
Savage
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Offline Swampman

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Re: The Judge Handgun... Good Self Defense Handgun or Not??
« Reply #163 on: June 10, 2012, 08:48:58 AM »
My personal experience in several instances is that all Taurus products are junk.  The Judge is too big & too heavy for anything much.  It's a novelty and there's no accounting for taste.  I'd buy a S&W if I had to have one.  At least it won't fall to pieces in your hand as I witnessed recently.
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: The Judge Handgun... Good Self Defense Handgun or Not??
« Reply #164 on: June 11, 2012, 08:52:48 AM »
My personal experience in several insyances is that all Taurus products are junk.  The Judge is too big & too heavy for anything much.  It's a novelty and there's no accounting for taste.  I'd buy a S&W if I had to have one.  At least it won't fall to pieces in your hand as I witnessed recently.

good post !
And would add the easy way to tie up a revolver someone is trying to shoot you with is grab the cyl. ( note the judge is a close range weapon like in car jackings) and hold it . Why get a gun with twice the size cyl of useful guns ? to make it easy to stop your shot ?
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline PAHUnter04

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Re: The Judge Handgun... Good Self Defense Handgun or Not??
« Reply #165 on: June 27, 2012, 02:17:46 PM »
Hi Guys:
 
Well the tale of the tape for this post so far is 8,900 Views, 165 replies, and six pages long. You have to admit that there is some kind of love, hate affair going on with these handguns.  ::)
 
So for sale just for YOU GUYS who might sorta want one of these Taurus handguns, check out the Firearms For sale Section. The Taurus new Public Defender Ultra lite Stainless steel.
 
PAH
 
 
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Offline 1911crazy

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Re: The Judge Handgun... Good Self Defense Handgun or Not??
« Reply #166 on: June 28, 2012, 08:13:11 AM »
I'm not sure where i read it nor who offers it but it got my attention when they said its in 45 long colt,  454 casull and 410 shotgun too.  If it can shoot the 454 casull it gets my vote as a small carry gun in the wilds hiking for sure. But it looks like the cylinder grew up and the frame did not??
This isn't a novelty item this is some serious stuff
Its called he raging judge # M513SS3 or the raging judge magnum and its in 45long colt, 454 casull and 410 shotgun, with its  $1,000 price tag.

Offline 1911crazy

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Re: The Judge Handgun... Good Self Defense Handgun or Not??
« Reply #167 on: June 28, 2012, 08:26:27 AM »
Guess I'm a joke also for owning a judge. I read some of your posts and think what kind of forum did I join? I hunt Florida where rattle snakes and water moccasins are everywhere you step. Would I also use it for home defense, absolutely.
 
Why the haters? I'm not here to judge anyone else, geeez.
 
1895gunner
No way at all.  I think this is one serious revolver for personal protection in any situation. No hater here.....its different and will take time to adjust to its looks.
William;  No one but my oldest son is into shooting like i am.  Now all of a sudden my youngest son and wife want to shoot.  There all getting there CCW permits too.  The wife resfused to go for years and now she wants to go everytime i mention it.   Go figure.  Bill

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: The Judge Handgun... Good Self Defense Handgun or Not??
« Reply #168 on: July 09, 2012, 01:17:05 AM »
the OP ? was "GOOD" SD handgun or not. To that end all aspects of the gun needs to be looked at . One it shoots a short range load in shot gun mode . In bullet mode it lacks accuracy at distance. Both limit the effective range. Second is size it is a horse revolver ( todat a truckor car gun) . Weight , HEAVY. It holds 6 , maybe enough maybe not in areas with gangs . In all reality if defense is the goal then isn't a Glock more cost effective ? more weather resistant for a truck gun ? lower price and no speical high priced shells to make it effective ?
I think people think it will give them the SAWED OFF SHOTGUN that takes a stamp to own with out the paper work. Its a novelty gun .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Savage

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Re: The Judge Handgun... Good Self Defense Handgun or Not??
« Reply #169 on: July 09, 2012, 05:16:06 AM »
the OP ? was "GOOD" SD handgun or not. To that end all aspects of the gun needs to be looked at . One it shoots a short range load in shot gun mode . In bullet mode it lacks accuracy at distance. Both limit the effective range. Second is size it is a horse revolver ( todat a truckor car gun) . Weight , HEAVY. It holds 6 , maybe enough maybe not in areas with gangs . In all reality if defense is the goal then isn't a Glock more cost effective ? more weather resistant for a truck gun ? lower price and no speical high priced shells to make it effective ?
I think people think it will give them the SAWED OFF SHOTGUN that takes a stamp to own with out the paper work. Its a novelty gun .

Can't argue wtih that logic.

Savage
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Offline PAHUnter04

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Re: The Judge Handgun... Good Self Defense Handgun or Not??
« Reply #170 on: July 10, 2012, 02:56:45 PM »
the OP ? was "GOOD" SD handgun or not. To that end all aspects of the gun needs to be looked at . One it shoots a short range load in shot gun mode . In bullet mode it lacks accuracy at distance. Both limit the effective range. Second is size it is a horse revolver ( todat a truckor car gun) . Weight , HEAVY. It holds 6 , maybe enough maybe not in areas with gangs . In all reality if defense is the goal then isn't a Glock more cost effective ? more weather resistant for a truck gun ? lower price and no speical high priced shells to make it effective ?
I think people think it will give them the SAWED OFF SHOTGUN that takes a stamp to own with out the paper work. Its a novelty gun .

Well lets look at that reasoning. Why yes YES it shoots a shotgun load 4 pellets of Buckshot accurately at 15 yards in about 5 in circle. Each 32 caliber pellet traveling around 900 FPS. Who said it isn't accurate at distance? At 25 yards 45 LC 200 grain bullet traveling 1000 fps I can keep all five shots in the kill zone on a silhouette target. Heavy ...depends on which one you are talking about. The Public Defender SS 2in. is like 24 oz. and can be concealed easy. Some people don't like semi's or Glocks. Some people just like revolvers. And yes sadly to say some people like Taurus The Judge, Public Defender, and other name .410/.45 revolvers...
 
And the beat goes on.... the beat goes on...
 
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Offline evidrine

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Re: The Judge Handgun... Good Self Defense Handgun or Not??
« Reply #171 on: July 11, 2012, 02:58:23 AM »
well said.  ;)

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: The Judge Handgun... Good Self Defense Handgun or Not??
« Reply #172 on: July 11, 2012, 11:58:08 PM »
I for one don't care to carry a 24 oz gun PLUS ammo both shot gun shell or 45 Colt both being heavy on my person not to mention a larger gun takes a heavier holster. Being able to do something and it being realistic is two very different considerations. If this were not true then why the rush from ever gun maker to down size and make guns with less weight ? Besides IMHO one should carry the same year round if at all possible. And in many places a guin as big as you mention will not work with what most wear to be comfortable.
I see nothing a 357 mag can't do that a load of shot from a very short bbl 410 cant do. ( yes I have tried these loads and they are weak compared to being shot out a a 20 inch bbl 410 shotgun. Also the 45 Colt had a 60 year head start on the 357 mag. and the 357 mag still holds a better record for ONE SHOT STOPS , just saying if you are in a situation where you may only get one shot wouldn't you want the deck stacked in your favor ? I DO and carry a 357 mag. One other point is with a light 357 mag say a 340 PD one can carry two , 12 oz + 12 oz is the same as the big gun at the same weight hummmm. It (they) also carry better ammo , concele better and in two locations on the body allow load distribution. And the biggie is you can have one at hand while driving and one secured on person incase you find it nessary to bail out and lose the one gun. And a second gun is a faster reload. Then the bad thing about a larger gun is often if the attacker can get his hand on the gun he often has better leverage with the cyl. ( and your pick has one of the longest cyl.) and bbl. than you do holding the grip. That is a real consideration in many cases . Don't even think you can shoot all the time because in most cases your first warning of attack is often getting hit or such.
Its important to understand the gun is but part of your defense , it must mesh with you dress , lifestyle , climate , need etc to name but a few considerations . After about 12 years of carry and going from a steel 1911 to a 12 oz 357 and several others in between  due to weight and modes of carry that fit my lifestyle I offer the above from personal experince. Would add here flashing your gun is enough to get it and lic to carry taken away so it is important to blance the rig between hiding it and enough power to do the job.
I still see nothing with the 410/45Colts of any manf.that would offer me any advantages that would change my mind.
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Brett

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Re: The Judge Handgun... Good Self Defense Handgun or Not??
« Reply #173 on: July 12, 2012, 03:42:10 AM »
Different strokes for different folks as they used to say.   The Judge definitely is not on my short list of CC weapons but if it works for someone else more power to 'm.
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: The Judge Handgun... Good Self Defense Handgun or Not??
« Reply #174 on: July 12, 2012, 09:33:21 AM »
working and being a "good" choice is quite different . just saying.............
 
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Redhawk1

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Re: The Judge Handgun... Good Self Defense Handgun or Not??
« Reply #175 on: July 17, 2012, 11:13:02 PM »
Some people just keep beating this dead horse.. If you don't like the gun, don't buy one. If you like it, go buy one. I don't listen to anyone else, I find out for myself. Some people only like certain guns and that is it. So  if you like them great, if not, oh well!  ::)
If  you're going to make a hole, make it a big one.
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: The Judge Handgun... Good Self Defense Handgun or Not??
« Reply #176 on: July 18, 2012, 03:28:44 AM »
The op ask ,
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Redhawk1

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Re: The Judge Handgun... Good Self Defense Handgun or Not??
« Reply #177 on: July 18, 2012, 11:16:04 AM »
The op ask ,

And how many times are you going to keep saying the same thing over and over?  We all know you don't like the Judge, we heard you the first time.  ;) ;D
If  you're going to make a hole, make it a big one.
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Jesus Christ and the American G. I.
One died for your soul, the other for your freedom

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Offline stolivar

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Re: The Judge Handgun... Good Self Defense Handgun or Not??
« Reply #178 on: July 24, 2012, 04:36:16 PM »
I have the S&W Governor. Very accurate with 410 and 45 acp. I can hit 12 inch gone all day long at 100  yards with 45 acp.


I would say that is pretty accurate. I also can keep Fed 410 SD loads within 7 inches at 20 yards. I have the same accuracy as this guy.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_iJ34EHuQs




steve






Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: The Judge Handgun... Good Self Defense Handgun or Not??
« Reply #179 on: July 25, 2012, 12:28:35 AM »
The op ask ,

And how many times are you going to keep saying the same thing over and over?  We all know you don't like the Judge, we heard you the first time.  ;) ;D
As long as I care to ,  ;)  maybe it will keep some new shooter from IMHO wasting hard earned $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
 
If ya can see it ya can hit it !