Author Topic: The Judge Handgun... Good Self Defense Handgun or Not?? (Read 28793 times)

1911crazy · « **Reply #120 on:** January 10, 2012, 02:10:55 PM »

When i purchased my ruger vaquero in 45 long colt i grabbed some hornady 300grs to go with it. I wonder how the judge can handle them.
For a hand held shotgun i been thinking of a 12ga auto with an 18'' or 16'' barrel.

yellowtail3 · « **Reply #121 on:** January 10, 2012, 02:52:38 PM »

I had someone point one of those Judges at me once. It looked big, from my vantage.

dakotashooter2 · « **Reply #122 on:** February 03, 2012, 11:05:13 AM »

The thing that bothers me is that if a guy thinks he is gonna miss with a standard cartridge round what make him think he is not gonna miss with a buckshot load? At self defense ranges you are only gaining a couple inches in the spread of a buckshot load vs a single projectile. My point is, the chances of hitting center of mass are not tha much greater with a Judge.The buckshot load may get a hit if you miss you target by an inch but if you miss by 6" neither is gonna do any good. If your living by the attitude that any hit is good your are setting yourself up for trouble. Somebody mentioned "a face full of #4". Sorry but self defense training ALWAYS emphasizes center of mass, the largest target area, to insure the greatest chances of a hit.. Many a bad guy has fought on with multiple rounds from a good quality bullet and I'm not about to pin my hopes on a few buckshot pellets being as good as a quality bullet. I'm not sure I want to trust my life on theory and wishfull thinking. I'm not saying they are not capable of being used for SD, just that 99 times out of 100 a standard revolver or semi auto is going to serve you better.

I do have to admit ... if you shoot all your ammo and the bad guy is still coming they would make one heck of a club.............

evidrine · « **Reply #123 on:** February 03, 2012, 11:18:23 AM »

I would like to see the guy who keeps on coming after a close up face full of #4!!! lol

Majority of the time its not a take a stance and take aim kind of situation. I think the judge comes into play when you are in a scuffle and blindly pull off a couple rounds towards your attacker with shot loads and then follow by something you can take center mass on. If you have time to pick your shot I think buck shot, slug, or .45lc will do just as good and anything else coming from a snubby.

I think the real advantage here is home use self defence. Across a room you can easily cover a door way in a hurry with shot loads and follow them up with anything you want. The key here is avoiding room to room penatration. After all, there are a lot of us who still have young children at home to think of.

bilmac · « **Reply #124 on:** February 03, 2012, 11:47:28 AM »

It looks to me like shooting someone in the face with a load of #4s is a good way to get sued what with the crazy way our legal system works today.

williamlayton · « **Reply #125 on:** February 03, 2012, 12:26:45 PM »

He/she might have a tough time IDing you.
Blessings

Swampman · « **Reply #126 on:** February 03, 2012, 01:15:34 PM »

Anyone I shoot will have a tough time doing anything else after that point.

dakotashooter2 · « **Reply #127 on:** February 13, 2012, 11:21:17 AM »

So you are not sure you can make a body (14"-18" wide) shot with a handgun cartridge but you can make a head (6"-8" wide and moving) shot with a 410? See, this is the kind of self defeating logic that surrounds support for this gun.

Who is going to take a face full of shot? Well first based on above we can probably rule out a dead center hit in favor of a glancing hit so I would suggest the guy who is stoked full of Oxycodone and can't feel his face to start with. That is your common home invader these days. I want a round that's going to disrupt the CNS or bleed him out as fast as possible. A partial load of birdshot in the face has a lot less a chance of doing that than a bullet, properly or improperly placed in or near the chest.

We are talking about across the room shots here. 10'-12' if we are talking the average bedroom. At that range even pointing and shooting is going to give you a high percentage of body hits with a handgun round. As many as with a Judge.

It does have one major advantage..... no rifling marks on the buckshot or birdshot............

Quote from: evidrine on February 03, 2012, 11:18:23 AM

I would like to see the guy who keeps on coming after a close up face full of #4!!! lol

Majority of the time its not a take a stance and take aim kind of situation. I think the judge comes into play when you are in a scuffle and blindly pull off a couple rounds towards your attacker with shot loads and then follow by something you can take center mass on. If you have time to pick your shot I think buck shot, slug, or .45lc will do just as good and anything else coming from a snubby.

I think the real advantage here is home use self defence. Across a room you can easily cover a door way in a hurry with shot loads and follow them up with anything you want. The key here is avoiding room to room penatration. After all, there are a lot of us who still have young children at home to think of.

bilmac · « **Reply #128 on:** February 13, 2012, 11:32:43 AM »

I've always been skeptical of any shotgun for self defense, even a 12ga. They only offer an advantage at certain ranges. Too close and the shot swarm is no bigger than a bullet. Too far and they lack real power. So if I'm not sold on a 12ga, I really have problems with a 410 popgun.

Savage · « **Reply #129 on:** February 13, 2012, 01:08:09 PM »

Quote from: dakotashooter2 on February 13, 2012, 11:21:17 AM

So you are not sure you can make a body (14"-18" wide) shot with a handgun cartridge but you can make a head (6"-8" wide and moving) shot with a 410? See, this is the kind of self defeating logic that surrounds support for this gun.

Who is going to take a face full of shot? Well first based on above we can probably rule out a dead center hit in favor of a glancing hit so I would suggest the guy who is stoked full of Oxycodone and can't feel his face to start with. That is your common home invader these days. I want a round that's going to disrupt the CNS or bleed him out as fast as possible. A partial load of birdshot in the face has a lot less a chance of doing that than a bullet, properly or improperly placed in or near the chest.

We are talking about across the room shots here. 10'-12' if we are talking the average bedroom. At that range even pointing and shooting is going to give you a high percentage of body hits with a handgun round. As many as with a Judge.

It does have one major advantage..... no rifling marks on the buckshot or birdshot............

Best post on the usefulness of the Judge I've seen! Well Done!

Savage

evidrine · « **Reply #130 on:** February 14, 2012, 03:17:33 AM »

My "shot to the face" comment was meant for the previous post before mine.

My main concern in a "Home invasion" is hitting target in the dark with enough folow up rounds of your choice to finnish the job without harming anyone in any other room in the house. If you think you are going to ask the guy the take a few steps to the right because he is in line with your childrens bedroom, you seriously have a problem. Not sure about some of you, but I wouldnt take the shot. This is my reasoning for preferring a shotgun type firearm for "home defence". PP carry I tend to go with something esle, but anything else would be off of the subject at hand.

Intruders hopped up on drugs are extremely tough, but not that tough. You are not shooting at zombies or somthing out of x-files. If you stun and immediately follow up with something more deadly you will stop your untruder.

Empty Quiver · « **Reply #131 on:** February 14, 2012, 04:31:02 AM »

Face full of #4's or face full of 180gr Gold Dot? I'll take the #4's Alex.

If the shot shell gives you confidence go for it. Worst case scenario you are just as dead as you would have been had you used your car keys to defend yourself. Best case you drive away the perpetrator, either killing or maiming enough to require a trip to ER where he gets arrested.

I would not be caught dead with a judge in my hand... then again, ain't that the idea.

evidrine · « **Reply #132 on:** February 14, 2012, 04:54:58 AM »

Rather than get startled awake, trying whipe the sleep from my eyes and focus in on a head or center mass shot of someone who has already got you in his sights and has already begun to pull the trigger, I like to be able to send a load of #4 or buck shot directly towards the black shadow standing in the corner of my room knowing somthing is going to make contact and probably throwing him off guard following immediately with .45lc directly into the target that I have now aquired and am confident I can take out.

I can easily see how it is only a matter of preference here. I honestly dont see how someone can completely disregard it all together. If its not your cup of tea, thats find and dandy. There is no reason why someone should not be confident with this gun as a home defence weapon. It is very capable.

Once again I will state that for myself personally, room to room penetration is very high on my list of things to avoid. I will not chance it with my children.

Empty Quiver · « **Reply #133 on:** February 14, 2012, 06:51:22 AM »

Exactly what is the shot spread at 7'? Will the shot have even left the shot cup? I haven't investigated but perhaps this is what the special Judge ammo addresses.

I'll be honest with you , I'd be hell pressed to find more than a couple places in my house where I would encounter someone at over 7' distant. If you are talking inside a vehicle range I find it hard to believe the shot will have left the shot cup at all. When it is all said and done bird shot at indoor distances is little more than a cut shell.

I'm not going to prevent someone from getting one, but I think they should be honest with themselves about what the real world usefulness is.

I drive a convertible Mustang, talk about a poster child for useless, but I like it and enjoy driving it. I'm glad the choice is available. I don't try to defend my choice with the logic that I can haul stupid huge boxes by dropping the top, or that driven sensibly it gets 28mpg, or that I have reduced my need for Vitamin D supplements. It's small it rattles it is fairly cheaply built the paint has faded far more than it should have, but I enjoy the thing.

Mike in Virginia · « **Reply #134 on:** February 14, 2012, 01:10:08 PM »

They are a gimmick. A whole lot of bulk to carry on the assumption your attacker will be very close to you. I'd rather have a baseball bat or a rock or an attack poodle. Still, they've sold well, which goes to show you how ignorant people can be. Whoever called a novelty was being kind.

evidrine · « **Reply #135 on:** February 15, 2012, 03:28:52 AM »

Well, you go ahead and put your baseball bat, rock, and attack poodle against an intruder with a gun and see who comes out on top. I dont think you can get more ignorant than a coment like that.

saddlebum · « **Reply #136 on:** February 15, 2012, 03:41:16 AM »

Quote from: evidrine on February 15, 2012, 03:28:52 AM

Well, you go ahead and put your baseball bat, rock, and attack poodle against an intruder with a gun and see who comes out on top. I dont think you can get more ignorant than a coment like that.

And then there are some that are too ignorant to realize it was a joke. Just like the Judge is a joke, and anyone who owns one thinking he has a proper self defense machine in his hand.

Same as with the joke about the attack poodle above, some of us took one look at the Judge and got a good laugh out of it. Others took it seriously and bought one. So whether or not you own a Judge, you bought one here, (so to speak)..................

gypsyman · « **Reply #137 on:** February 15, 2012, 05:50:53 AM »

Back in the early 90's, my brother wanted what is now the Judge. Back then it was called the Thunder-5. Only shot it one time, and I was not impressed. We got some 410 slugs, some 4 shot, and went out to a friends farm, to aireate a refrigerator. Unless you were real close, the 4 shot just dimpled the outside of the refer, and the slugs kicked like a mule out of that handgun. I guess it would be better than a knife, but in all honesty, I would rather have a .380. At least with a small gun like a .380, it would be much easier to carry for ccw. If all you wanted was to have a gun around a house for protection, I guess so. Just don't be fooled into thinking that all you have to do is point it in the general direction and pull the trigger. At the distance that you have in a house, you'll have to be just as good a shot as with a handgun in a normal caliber. gypsyman

evidrine · « **Reply #138 on:** February 15, 2012, 06:08:05 AM »

Well, either way. I try my hardest to not throw opinions around. I usually always try to keep my coments at an experience level. "Experience level" not meaning I have shot someone with one

, but have shot one a lot. With the right ammo (keep in mind you have 5 rounds at your leisure) you do have a very reliable self defence handgun. I think everyones first thoughts are always the reliabillity of throwing bird shot around, there are many more opitons than just that. I doubt you would see anyone giving a guy a hard time for wanting to carry a .45lc snubby around. The judge would not be my first choice, yet from expereince I would not disregard it. Having young children at home I would always go with a shotgun type home defence weapon versus anything that will penetrate from room to room.

jimster · « **Reply #139 on:** February 15, 2012, 10:09:22 AM »

If you already own a revolver in 45 colt you can reload or even buy shotshells for it for whatever reason you need shot shells. Not saying yes or no to the Judge or commenting on shot shells for defense, just saying your 45 colt revolver has another option you might not have looked at close enough and you might not need another revolver if you have a 45 Colt.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuYInjR3DGg
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/648570/cci-shotshell-ammunition-45-colt-long-colt-150-grain-9-shot-box-of-10

Savage · « **Reply #140 on:** February 15, 2012, 10:54:32 AM »

Another thing to consider, if #4 shot out of a Judge doesn't penetrate wallboard, it's unlikely to penetrate clothing or tissue enough to be effective. That would seem to make that loading pretty useless beyond a few feet. I would think buckshot or slugs out of the Judge would penetrate at least a couple of layers of drywall with enough energy left to cause injury. If over penetration is a serious concern, the 5.56 with lightly constructed bullets certainly penetrate less than buckshot or slugs.
Savage

PAHUnter04 · « **Reply #141 on:** February 15, 2012, 12:15:25 PM »

I have a Judge and I don't think it is a joke. And I don't think I am in the minority. Especially shooting the new breed of ammo that all the companies came out with. Again, The Federal brass plated Buckshot, 4 pellets, Personal Defence hits hard. At 7 yards...21 feet it is like a five to six inch spread. I went out and shot an old abandoned piece of sheet metal, at that distance, the Buck Shot blew right through it.

And if you guys think that everyone who has a pistol or revolver for home defense goes out and pratice and knows how to use it you are sadly mistaken.

And let me tell you, there is NO shot shell capsule, even for the 44 Mag that can equal the #4 shot from a .410 Judge. Get real.

PAH

Empty Quiver · « **Reply #142 on:** February 15, 2012, 10:39:49 PM »

Quote from: PAHUnter04 on February 15, 2012, 12:15:25 PM

I have a Judge and I don't think it is a joke. And I don't think I am in the minority. Especially shooting the new breed of ammo that all the companies came out with. Again, The Federal brass plated Buckshot, 4 pellets, Personal Defence hits hard. At 7 yards...21 feet it is like a five to six inch spread. I went out and shot an old abandoned piece of sheet metal, at that distance, the Buck Shot blew right through it.

And if you guys think that everyone who has a pistol or revolver for home defense goes out and pratice and knows how to use it you are sadly mistaken.

And let me tell you, there is NO shot shell capsule, even for the 44 Mag that can equal the #4 shot from a .410 Judge. Get real.

PAH

What is that spread like at 7 feet? My point is that you have to aim the thing as accurately as any single projectile handgun. Too much Hollywood action film think goes into the Judge. Gun enthusiasts understand what I'm talking about. The casual owner will not understand that they are not holding a Phalanx weapon, it's not going to throw a wall of lead that encompasses an entire hallway. A grapefruit size pattern at 21 feet? I'm thinking you oughta go ahead and aim anyway.

evidrine · « **Reply #143 on:** February 16, 2012, 03:13:58 AM »

At about 15ft a load of no.6 will spread about 3-4ft span. No.4 a little tighter. Perfect for a first round stunner and could deff be deadly if closer than that. Follow that up with whatever you want.

evidrine · « **Reply #144 on:** February 16, 2012, 03:16:01 AM »

Something like a light bird shot will easily cover a very large spread at a very close range.

Empty Quiver · « **Reply #145 on:** February 16, 2012, 04:04:53 AM »

Quote from: evidrine on February 16, 2012, 03:13:58 AM

At about 15ft a load of no.6 will spread about 3-4ft span. No.4 a little tighter. Perfect for a first round stunner and could deff be deadly if closer than that. Follow that up with whatever you want.

Why does it do that from the Judge and not a shotgun? Does it have some sort of wad stopper? I'm serious here, and mean no flame on you. Is the rifling causing it?

evidrine · « **Reply #146 on:** February 16, 2012, 04:27:40 AM »

Combination of short barrel and rifleing.

S.B. · « **Reply #147 on:** February 16, 2012, 06:39:27 AM »

Quote from: Mikey on March 01, 2011, 01:36:24 AM

PAHunter: There are some new personal defense loads out for the 410 that contain both a slug and 3 (I think) #4 or 00 buck pellets and that would give you the best of both worlds, shot and ball so to speak. I would be a bit leery of just basing my defense on #4 shot as #4 buck is a better and heavier load but I'm not sure it is available in 410. Right now the are a whole bunch of 410 loads available for the Judge, S&B, Golden Bear (3"), and for handguns Federal Premium '410 for Handguns carries 4 000 buck pellets listed at 1200'/sec - that's pretty darn good for the 410. You might also be able to get slug loads for the 410 that fit the handgun but, you are chambered for the 45 colt as well, so you have many choices.

If you live, hunt or work in snake country or where you might encounter a venomous snake, violent individuals or politicians, the Judge would be a good choice. HTH.

Wouldn't slugs pass through a wall just as easily as a solikd bullet? Wondering about over penetration.
Steve

evidrine · « **Reply #148 on:** February 16, 2012, 06:46:34 AM »

Make sure your first round is one that will not over penetrate then follow up with something you can focus in!

temmi · « **Reply #149 on:** February 17, 2012, 06:59:23 AM »

Quote from: dakotashooter2 on February 03, 2012, 11:05:13 AM

The thing that bothers me is that if a guy thinks he is gonna miss with a standard cartridge round what make him think he is not gonna miss with a buckshot load? ....
...

Exactly