30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)

[scootrd]

Guys this is tongue and Cheek so lets not get all combative and such.

Found this very interesting (because it was stated so well and so concise).  This is why I hung up my mod 70 30-06 for my Remmy Mod Seven 7mm-08. In my opinion the 7mm-08 140gr is the Greatest all around Whitetail Deer cartridge/caliber ever developed for most hunting environments and terrains... yes dare I say it.... You bet ... even better than a 30-06.......

But Then again I'm a Mccoy !!!   

Rifle Recoil Tables gives these numbers for the 7mm-08 and the .30-06,
in both cases for an eight pound rifle, which shows much less recoil energy
using a 7mm-08 and less recoil velocity hence less Abrupt Blow to the shoulder.


   Cartridge (Wb@MV)      Recoil energy   Recoil velocity
   --------------------   -------------   ---------------
   7mm-08 (140 at 2860)   12.6            10.1
   .30-06   (150 at 2910)   17.6            11.9

Of course we're comparing a 140 grain bullet at 2860 ft/sec to a 150 grain bullet at 2910,
but consider this: for a bullet that's 7% heavier traveling 2% faster the 30-06 has a recoil
energy 40% greater. That's a lot. Finally, consider the relative ballistics of the two cartridges.
According to Remington's ballistic tables:

   Cartridge Information
   Cartridge  Type               Ballistic Coefficient
   ---------- ------------------ ---------------------
   7mm-08 140 AccuTip™ Boat Tail        0.486
   .30-06   150 AccuTip™ Boat Tail        0.415

   Velocity (ft/sec)
   Cartridge   Muzzle  100    200    300    400    500
   ----------  ------  ----   ----   ----   ----   ----
   7mm-08 140  2860    2670   2489   2314   2146   1986
   .30-06   150  2910    2686   2473   2270   2077   1893

   Energy (ft-lbs)
   Cartridge   Muzzle  100    200    300    400    500
   ----------  ------  ----   ----   ----   ----   ----
   7mm-08 140  2542    2216   1925   1664   1432   1225
   .30-06   150  2820    2403   2037   1716   1436   1193

   Long-Range Trajectory
   Cartridge   100  150  200    250   300   400    500
   ----------  ---  ---  ----  ----  ----  -----  -----
   7mm-08 140  1.7  1.5  zero  -2.9  -7.3  -21.1  -42.5
   .30-06   150  1.7  1.5  zero  -2.9  -7.4  -21.5  -43.7

The 7mm-08, being a smaller diameter, has a higher ballistic coefficient, that retains its velocity and energy longer. The .30-06 starts out 50 ft/sec faster, but out at 200 yards it's slowed to 2473 while the 7mm-08 is still traveling at 2489. The heavier 150 grain .30-06 starts out with 300 ft-lbs more energy but out at 400 yards they pack the same punch. And the long-range trajectory of the two rounds is virtually identical.

[hillbill]

those are both prob 2 of the best north american big game rounds for anything short of grizzer bears.i like the 06 for better selection of components and rifles and just cuz of the history related to the round.i have always thought tho that if a wanted a new deer gun that wasnt a 06 or a 6.5x55, the 7mmx08 would be on the top of the list.

[james]

If I hunted in the Rockies I would use my 06 but here in the south my choice of the two would be the 7-08.  If I had to pick one, I would have to vote for the 7mm-08 because I mostly shoot whitetails, coyotes and antelope.    I have both and it has been about five years since I carried either.  I used a Rem BDL 06 on an elk hunt in MT but didn't get a shot at an elk.  I did use my Rem 788 .308 back up rifle to take a nice mulie on that trip.
I had the TC custom shop make me a 7mm08 -24" ss heavy barrel for my Encore and took it hunting a couple of times before I picked up a 6.5x55 barrel for the encore.   Since then I have taken 6 antelope, 4 coyotes, and several deer with the Swede caliber and the 7-08 stayed in the safe.

[JW/OK]

In my opinion the 7mm-08 140gr is the Greatest all around Whitetail Deer cartridge/caliber ever developed for most hunting environments and terrains...

I want to be carrying the greatest all around whiteail deer cartridge ever developed for all hunting environments and terrains. Thats why the 7mm-08 takes a back seat to the bigger 7mm's. But I would take the 30-06 in this game.

I do have a question for experienced reloaders... which of the two choices can achieve the biggest gains in performance through handloading?

  JW

[Swampman]

There's no real comparison.  The 7mm-08 is a light deer round.  The .30-06 is an everything round.  Having owned quite a few of both I sold my last 7mm-08 some weeks ago.  In fact I even prefer the .270 over the 7mm-08.

[cole k]

Scootrd, I'd bet that you have not chrono' that cartridge from your rifle. If you would do little more research, you will find that to get that velocity from a 7-08 you need a 24” or 26” barrel.

I've kill deer with  a lot of different cartridges; .30-30, 35 Rem, .38-55, .45-70, .308 Win, .257 Roberts, 7x57, 8x57, 9.3x62, .25-06 Rem, .270 Win, .30-06, plus a few magnums.

I can a sure you that any deer shot within the cartridge's range limitation in your rifle the deer will never know the difference.

It's all about your recoil tolerance and shot placement.

The 6.5 Swede, 7.62x57, 9.3x57m and .35 Whelen are on my bucket list.

[scootrd]

Scootrd, I'd bet that you have not chrono' that cartridge from your rifle. If you would do little more research, you will find that to get that velocity from a 7-08 you need a 24” or 26” barrel.

I've kill deer with  a lot of different cartridges; .30-30, 35 Rem, .38-55, .45-70, .308 Win, .257 Roberts, 7x57, 8x57, 9.3x62, .25-06 Rem, .270 Win, .30-06, plus a few magnums.

I can a sure you that any deer shot within the cartridge's range limitation in your rifle the deer will never know the difference.

It's all about your recoil tolerance and shot placement.

The 6.5 Swede, 7.62x57, 9.3x57m and .35 Whelen are on my bucket list.

It's a nit  My Remmy has 22' barrel  - so I maybe lose 50 -100 FPS  -  Deer don't seem to know

And my Remmy is shorter, lighter , more compact,  with less recoil and a joy to carry all day long than my old Mod 70 .
140GR are true deerslayers , What's not to love.

Unless your Swampy and hunt Itty bitty swamp deer .. Cause then you would need a big 'ol 30-06. 
Don't get bent out of shape  swampman- just pokin fun!!! Also,  I didn't say an everything round , I said 7mm-08 was the Greatest all around Whitetail round. (at least for me). 

Having owned quite a few of both I sold my last 7mm-08 some weeks ago.

Swampman I thought you told me a year ago you only owned only one 7mm-08 before , you tried it and didn't like the caliber so you got rid of it. ?

[roper]

scootrd, I don't hunt whitetail deer but I find your ballistic between the 7-08 and 30-06 interesting.

Why don't you give us the ballistic and loading data from your 7-08 and then you can give us what you got with your model 70 30-06.  Nothing like real world data.

Anyone can copy ballistic tables.  I understand the model 7 is lighter than a model 70 30-06 your not talking apples and apples.  I won't brag too much on your model 7 my wife shoot a ULA 280AI model 24 it weight 3/4 lb less than your Model 7 so I think there been some interest in light weight rifles long before you ever decide to get one.

I'm sure them 7-08 is a good caliber.

[scootrd]

scootrd, I don't hunt whitetail deer but I find your ballistic between the 7-08 and 30-06 interesting.

Why don't you give us the ballistic and loading data from your 7-08 and then you can give us what you got with your model 70 30-06.  Nothing like real world data.

Anyone can copy ballistic tables.  I understand the model 7 is lighter than a model 70 30-06 your not talking apples and apples.  I won't brag too much on your model 7 my wife shoot a ULA 280AI model 24 it weight 3/4 lb less than your Model 7 so I think there been some interest in light weight rifles long before you ever decide to get one.

I'm sure them 7-08 is a good caliber.

The actual weight of my Remmy mod 7 weighs in a little over 7 lbs Scoped (Burris 4.5X-14-32mm, Ballistic Plex compact scope mounted low), slung and loaded. Not wippy at all,  and wonderfully balanced. I just found it interesting how well the general ballistics stacked up to the 30-06 with much less recoil lighter package and equivalent trajectory.

I think the Remmy Mod Seven / 7mm-08 140GR in an awesome  whitetail combination especially for the steep terrain / mixed woods and high field areas I hunt, and makes for a great dedicated Whitetail Rig. 

I just love it - again this was just a tongue and cheek poke at the 30-06 for use on whitetails.

Heres a pic of mine when I had the Bushnell 2-7x32 on her.
I use Lever-lok Rings and weaver 2 steel bases to interchange scopes quickly and they work great.

[HogFan]

I have hunted the south and the Rockies in MT. I never felt under gunned with my 7mm-08, and it dropped several mule deer. Also, it was TC Encore, and I never needed more than 1 shot with it. Granted I did not elk hunt with it, but I carried  a .280 when I did and even for bear.

[charles p]

Killed many deer with both rifles.  Mine are both 22" barrels and I shoot 140 and 150 grain bullets as well.  Hard to argue the numbers but my 06 just hits harder and would be my favorite above 200 yds.  Both are excellent rounds.

The voloume of powder and gas is also a factor in recoil.

[Silvertp]

Scootrd...

Independently I have pondered the very same question that you pose, including several other calibers as well. 

For hunting white-tailed deer, in all their environments, Swampman is right.  There is no comparison. 

However, I'd take the 7mm-08 in the Model 7 everyday of the week.  Not only is the cartridge near perfect for deer sized game, the Model 7 is a joy to carry and lightening quick in the deer woods. 

Truth is I traded off my pre-64 Win '06 and currently pack a Model 7 in 7-08.  No need to ever look back...

Silvertp

[hillbill]

if your a short action model seven fan,it will be hard to convince yu different,the rem model seven is a rifle that is hard to beat.as a all around rifle id have to take it over most all other guns for game less than 400 lbs.

[Cabin4]

30-06. There's really no comparison. The 06 has it on versatility and scalability.

[diggler1833]

Apples to oranges comparrison IMO.

[Empty Quiver]

I would say that if you are limiting yourself to those loads the 7-08 is just as good if not in fact better. But you are comparing the "best" 08 load to an average 06 load.

But since there are proviso's, being the game, and the load I will agree with the 7mm08 being superior. I believe both are more than capable of the task at hand and why beat yourself up to kill a simple deer?

[parkergunshop]

I have killed deer with 7x57's  7mm-08, 7mm Remington Mag and just about every bore size upto a .458 Winchester Mag also a .257 Ackley Improved Roberts.

Here on the East Coast, my two most used guns have been an 8x57 mannlicher Mauser with the old Norma 196 grain softpoint or a 35 Whelen with a 200 grain Speer, long range is not needed.   However if I were to hunt out west on the range, my .308 Norma Mag or .338 Winchester Mag would be the gun of choice on deer or mule deer.

The 7x57 in a good modern rifle out classes the 7mm-08 if you handload lol.

[Lloyd Smale]

amen to that. If all your hunting is deer and recoil is a big consern why not drop down to a 257 or even a 243 both will drop any deer and have much less recoil then even the 708. Personaly i dont think recoil is even worth discussing in the 06.  In the real world an o6 can shoot a 150 to 2900fps and ive shot loads that did 3000 and i doubt if most short barreled 708s will get much over 2700 with a 140. Plus if you ever have a chance to hunt something bigger like elk the 06 can eaisly handle 180s. dont get me wrong i have nothign against the 708. Its a great little round that is chambered in handly little whitetail guns but it will never be an 06.

30-06. There's really no comparison. The 06 has it on versatility and scalability.

[longwinters]

I like both.  Told my oldest son to buy an 06.  The other to buy a 270.  I use a 280, 308 and 7m-08.  No arguments especially for whitetail.  It is hard to debate when it really only boils down to preference.

Long

[Doe]

Nice set up there(scootrd) you'er not going to get any arguement with me on this one, I've been wanting a 7-08mm bolt for awhile now.

[tjf76]

I live in W Montana and hunt deer/elk with my 7mm08. I use 140gr Nosler Partitions and have never had a problem with putting meat in the freezer. Where the 06 out shines the 708 would be when the 06 is loaded with 180gr bullets.  Just my 2cents

[parkergunshop]

I just took the time to look up my 7MM/08 loads and 7X57 loads.

1909 Peru Mauser,  Douglas Barrel 7MM/08 barrel 22 inches long.

At 100 yards for three shots:   Velocity readings at 10 ft.

130 grain speer xx grains H380 group size .719, velocity 2770 FPS
145 grain speer xx grains H380 group size .616 velocity 2620 FPS.
145 grain speer xx grains H380 group size .466 velocity 2704 FPS.
145 grain speer xx grains H380 group size .566 velocity 2704 FPS.

1908 DWM Mauser Douglas Barrel 7X57 barrel 26 inches long.

At 100 yards for 3 shots:

145 grain speer xx grains H380 group size .406 velocity 2709 FPS.
145 grain speer xx grains W785 group size .750 velocity 2880 FPS.
145 grain speer xx grains W785 group size . 862 velocity 2939 FPS Compressed load
145 grain speer xx grains H4831 group size .419 velocity 2776 FPs.
145 grain speer xx grains N204   not shot for group velocity 3037 FPS.
154 grain Hornady xx grains W785 group size .763 velocity 2923 FPS.

Most accurate loads in both was H380 which just happens to the the best powder in my .308 Winchester.

By comparison:

.308 Winchester, Remington 700 Action, Mcmillan Stock, Hart barrel.

165 grain sierra, xx grains H380, group size .350 velocity 2600 FPS

[Nudge6771]

WOW.  I see this thread is long stale, but being both new to the forum, and that the only two high powered rifles I own are in these calibers...I really want to weigh in.

To begin with, I have to say it's refreshing to see a thread where the primary verbiage around the 7mm-08 doesn't include the words "women" and "youth."  Not that it isn't a great high-powered for them, as it is.  But often when I see it characterized this way, it's done so implicating that the 7-08 is somehow NOT a big time hunting caliber.  And THAT, is patently false.

Going back to what I own:  Remington 700 CDL DM 7MM-08 and Remington 700 BDL DM .30-06.

The question the original poster proposes is 100% valid when comparing the 140 gr 7mm-08 vs. the 150 gr. '06.  What you get for that extra casing is essentially just more in the shoulder (more powder = more velocity).  But the on-game performance is practically the same.  So if one needs only 140 grains, because the primary purpose of the gun is deer, antelope, etc...then one need not require any more gun than the 7mm-08. 

Mine is so accurate...it's scary.  Using even factory cheap Prvi Partizan PSP at the range, the gun shoots tiny groups.  The gun isn't a fan of 120 gr ammo, which I find no problem with, because it seems 139/140 gr is tailor-made for this diameter in this size case.  If anyone wonders WHY, you need only to look at the BC's the bullets offer.

So, the broader point I wish to make is that in that (very fair) comparison limited to 140 vs. 150, I will ALWAYS pick up the 7mm-08 for work requiring that bullet weight.

That said...

What is WONDEROUS about the .30-06, even after 100+ years, is the bullet variety it can deliver.  I've always felt (and ballistics tables demonstrate) that 180 gr. is the sweet-spot for it, and this is how I use it -- my Elk gun.

The beauty of the '06 though, is that it can also go from 110-240 grainers with ease.  One need only maintain their own 'dope' book for the scope adjustments, and the old joke about only needing one gun is ABSOLUTELY TRUE.  IF one were so inclined, you really could just have an '06, using 110's for varmints, 150's for deer and others of similar size and makeup, 180-200's for Elk/Moose/Black bear, and 220-240's for Grizzly/polar bears.

Is it the BEST choice in each bullet weight and game category?  Of course not.  I can hear the brown bear hunters screaming about their 338's already...  But it is COMPETANT in all, and FANTASTIC in others?  You betcha.

So...

As long as I can afford to own two high-powered's, I'll use my 7MM-08 for very enjoyable, light-recoiling, hard hitting deer work.  And I keep the '06 zero'd at 200 yds with my favorite 180 gr load.

Outside of that, the only other thing one needs is a .22LR of some kind, and you've got every base in the animal kingdom covered (in N. America).

One more thing.  Chuck Hawks -- whose sight is probably familiar to many, as he does lots of great articles -- refers to the .270 Win and .30-06 as the "perfect pair" of rifles to cover just about anything (again, other than the .22LR).  No disrespect to the .270 (another great round!!!)...but for my money I think that pair is the &mm-08 and .30-06, in part because it's nice to have the shorter action on the 7, and in part because the .270 doesn't REALLY offer a big enough improvement in ballistics over the 7 to warrant the extra recoil.

I would wager, were he alive today, the &mm-08 just might make Jack O'Conner adjust his allegiences.

Oh one more thing.  CorBon offers a FACTORY LOAD featuring 168 Berger VLD's for the 7MM-08.  The BC is a whopping .617 (!)  that is still pushing the bullet at more than 1,000 lb. feet of energy BEYOND 800 yards!!!  I have obnly ever seen ONE .308 Win (it's parent) load that could barely match that ballistic performance, and it was another Berger VLD of 185 gr. weight.

[Swampman]

The 7mm-08 is my least favorite cartridge.  The .30-06 is my second favorite.

[Nudge6771]

Swampman,

O....K.  Ya mind qualifying that?    Least favorite cartridge for...what?  Hunting what?  And why?  On the basis of ballistics, or bullet selection...?    (It's a great performer in both those areas, by the way.)

I'm just curious as to why you say that, kind of without explanation.

[Bart Solo]

There are so many personal preferences in this topic all I can say is that either will kill whitetail deer with great efficiency.  If you are simply talking about hunting, recoil is irrelevant.  A 30-06's recoil is about the same as a 12 gauge pump or double gun shooting field loads.  Stiff but no big whoop. 
 
If you are shooting the rifle repeatedly at the range the 7MM-08s milder recoil might be a real attraction.  As an aside if you are shooting your hunting rifle that often at the range, you might want to consider buying a dedicated target rifle.  Punching paper bores me to tears, but some people love it.  Mostly those people have special target rifles.
 
I like and own the 30-06 because it is the most versatile of small caliber rifles and because of the availability of ammunition everywhere you go. 

[Nudge6771]

Bart,

1.  Recoil, as a consideration, is based on how much it affects your aim...NOT how much it hurts.  So with regard to hunting, it ABSOLUTELY matters.  This is precisely why people correctly say "bring as much gun as you can effectively shoot."  Because bigger bang that misses is just a bang.

2.  I'm going to laugh along at what was clearly meant to be a joke...that the .30-06 is a "small caliber" rifle.  Good one!

[Swampman]

I've owned 2 rifles in 7mm-08 and neither were accurate.  It was a misreable deer killer in my case.  I'll never own another.  I've never owned an inaccurate .30-06 and I've never had an inhumane kill with it.  Your mileage may vary.

[Nudge6771]

Swampman,

1.  What models were your 2 MM08's?

2.  What do you consider accurate?  As in, what MOA at what range?

- Nudge

[Swampman]

Remington stainless Model 7 and a CRF Model 70 Winchester Featherweight.
The Remington would shoot about 1.5" at 100 yards on a good day, and the Winchester wouldn't do better than 3 to 4 inches at 100 yards.
A boltgun should do a lot better than that without having to tinker with it..