Author Topic: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)  (Read 13076 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Bart Solo

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 706
  • Gender: Male
Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #30 on: March 13, 2012, 03:31:40 PM »
Bart,

1.  Recoil, as a consideration, is based on how much it affects your aim...NOT how much it hurts.  So with regard to hunting, it ABSOLUTELY matters.  This is precisely why people correctly say "bring as much gun as you can effectively shoot."  Because bigger bang that misses is just a bang.

2.  I'm going to laugh along at what was clearly meant to be a joke...that the .30-06 is a "small caliber" rifle.  Good one!

1. I respectfully disagree.  Recoil doesn't have much affect on your aim unless you flinch.  Flinching is a learned response to the pain inflicted by recoil.  People flinch out of fear of the pain.  If you don't learn to flinch you won't.  People learn to flinch at the range where they are wasting hunting ammunition shooting from a bench.  I read an article by Chuck Hawks talking about his techniques for shooting heavier recoil rifles.  Essentially he doesn't shoot them very much at any one setting.  If the recoil begins to hurt he stops.  He just doesn't want to learn to flinch.
 
2. Technically the 30-06 is considered a small caliber rifle.  Look it up.   
 
UPDATED:  Just to clarify, technically small caliber rifles are those up to 32 caliber, rifles in 33 to 39 caliber are considered medium caliber and rifles bores 40 caliber and above are considered large caliber.   I realize that there is a greater difference between a 30-06 and a 22 rim-fire than between a 30-06 and say a 338, but the brackets are very well established.

Offline Nudge6771

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 36
Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #31 on: March 13, 2012, 03:33:57 PM »
Uh...I'm gonna take the other side of part of that.  1.5 MOA is solid out of any gun, despite all the "sub-MOA guarantees" bandied about these days.  And that's PARTICULARLY true of middling guns like Rem 7 (a solid mid-price gun) and the Win 70 (a decent Japanese gun trading on the famous name of what it ONCE was).

My Rem 700 shoots about 1 MOA, be it 100 or 300 yards.  with a Saturday afternoon's worth of work pillar and glass bedding it, my sense is that could be improved. 

But this isn't what we should even be talking about.

You commented that the 7MM-08 was your least favorite caliber...CALIBER...which has little to do with the fact that you owned two guns of middling quality which didn't shoot it to your expectation.  You do realize that says nothing about the caliber, right?  It MIGHT not even say anything about those guns in general, as you may simply have had lesser examples.
If you've owned guns a long time, then you KNOW that they all have personalities, and that even top models like Rem 700, Ruger M77, Savage 110, etc...have their 'lemons.'

What does that ever say about the "caliber" though?

If you owned a Mustang GT that didn't run as fast as you expected...would you then say that V8's were terrible engines?

Offline Swampman

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (44)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16518
  • Gender: Male
Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #32 on: March 13, 2012, 03:48:55 PM »
An American made Model 70 (they have never been and aren't currently made in Japan)is generally accepted to be a very good rifle.  A Remington is the finest production rifle you can buy IMO.  I should have said cartridge.  It's my least favorite cartridge.  The worst Model 700 I've ever seen shot 1" groups right out of the box.  Mine will shoot 1/2" groups on a bad day.  The 7mm-08 suck for several reasons including terminal effects.  I do my best to discourage foks from buying one when I can.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Nudge6771

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 36
Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #33 on: March 13, 2012, 04:08:50 PM »
Regarding Win 70, if the new ones aren't made in Japan, I stand corrected.
Regarding Rem 700, IMO they are the finest factory rifle one can buy...period.  That's why the only two I own are 700's.

However YOU said Rem Model 7...and that ain't the same animal, especially where the breech end of the receiver is concerned.

As for "terminal effects" of the caliber...yer gonna have to help me out with a little more info.  I've taken many deer with mine, most with 140 gr. Nosler AccuBond's, and others with Hornady GMX's.  Never have I had to track with the Noslers...partial expansion was exactly as expected.  The GMX's were large hole pass-through's (except for one lodged in a far-side rib), and they all ran less than 100 yards while gushing horror movie amounts of blood out the quarter-sized exit wounds, with litle meat damage.  I don't recall any not being a 'clean kill.'

As with any caliber, it's basically a conversation about diameter, weight, and velocity.  So, which of the three do you take issue with in your assessment?

Offline Zachary

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3713
Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #34 on: March 13, 2012, 04:19:01 PM »
Back to the op topic of .30-06 v. 7mm-08 (regardless of make), I own both, and have taken whitetail deer with both, so I can also provide my personal experience.  Most of my hunting has been in Texas with shots out to about 100 yards.  Also, deer in Texas are not as large are deer up north.  Under these particular circumstances, I prefer the 7mm-08 with 140 grain bullets and, honestly, you really don't need more power than that.  (Actually, my favorite load is a Hornady 139 Light Magnum.)   Under these circumstances, a 7mm-08 will harvest a deer just as well as a .30-06.  Put another way, under these circumstances, a .30-06 won't kill a whitetail any "deader" than a 7mm-08

Getting a little off the subject, I own a 7mm-08 in the following makes: Remington M70 BDL SS with detachable magazine, Tikka WH SS, and Sako M75 SS.  I love all three of these guns.  In .30-06, I know for sure that I own one in Remington M70 BDL SS with a fixed floor plate, and I'm pretty sure that I own it in another make, but I honestly can't remember which one. lol.

Offline bajabill

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (5)
  • A Real Regular
  • *****
  • Posts: 712
Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #35 on: March 14, 2012, 04:04:58 AM »
If a 7-08 sucks at 100 yards, then a 280 sucks at 200 yards and a 7remmag sucks at 250 :o
 
this comparison is odd to me, seems the more similar chamberings to compare would be 7-08 vs 308, or 280 vs 30-06
 
I also noticed in the first post, recoil comparisons were made with equal weight guns, then one benefit of the 7-08 was the lighter weight guns  ???
 
I have always been a 30-06 proponent, still am, but used a slightly lighter 7-08 gun last year, took one of my larger deer at 100yds fine, but the benefit was lugging the gun around.  I suppose I could build a 30-06 almost as light also and go back from the dark side.

Offline mcwoodduck

  • Trade Count: (11)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7983
  • Gender: Male
Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #36 on: March 14, 2012, 04:19:35 AM »
Hey since a few have claimed that the 30-06 and the 7-08 are the best Deer hunting ctg made.
Lets comprmise and take the 7-08 and short lighter action and neck it up to the the same bullet of the 30-06 and make the absolute best deer hunting round ever made .308 Win.    ::)

Offline Swampman

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (44)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16518
  • Gender: Male
Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #37 on: March 14, 2012, 04:27:02 AM »
If a 7-08 sucks at 100 yards, then a 280 sucks at 200 yards and a 7remmag sucks at 250 :o 

I agree...
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Nudge6771

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 36
Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #38 on: March 14, 2012, 07:47:38 AM »
Hey since a few have claimed that the 30-06 and the 7-08 are the best Deer hunting ctg made.
Lets comprmise and take the 7-08 and short lighter action and neck it up to the the same bullet of the 30-06 and make the absolute best deer hunting round ever made .308 Win.    ::)

See, as a HUNTING round, I never could abide by the .308 Win.  Not that it isn't great round...because it is.  But the REASON it's a great round is because it's a "compromise" round.  They wanted to stay as close to the .30-06 as they could, in terms of 150-165 gr energy, while at the same time coming up with a round that would cycle better in the newly adopted semi-auto duty rifles.

And for THOSE TWO purposes...the .308 Win does it's job admirably. But as a HUNTING round, it's kind of the fat kid who can punch, but can never catch up to anyone. 

The 7MM-08 delivers 90% of the energy of the .308, with 30% less recoil (which equals better accuracy).  So for deer sized game, all you're doing with the .308 is making a bigger boom...but not better ballistics.

AND...if you want to hunt bigger game, nobody owning both a .30-06 AND a .308 would grab the latter.  Because blasting 180 grains out of a .308 is REALLY stretching it's abilities.  Out of the '06...it's the SWEET spot, and isn't itself getting stretched until you get to 240 grains.

SO.  While the .308 makes a great tactical compromise for sniping or murdering paper targets...it is NOT a satisfactory compromise for hunting.  Better to own the other two calibers. 8)

Online Lloyd Smale

  • Moderators
  • Trade Count: (32)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18262
Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #39 on: March 14, 2012, 09:46:28 AM »
couldnt have said it better myself.
There's no real comparison.  The 7mm-08 is a light deer round.  The .30-06 is an everything round.  Having owned quite a few of both I sold my last 7mm-08 some weeks ago.  In fact I even prefer the .270 over the 7mm-08.
blue lives matter

Offline mcwoodduck

  • Trade Count: (11)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7983
  • Gender: Male
Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #40 on: March 14, 2012, 10:58:39 AM »
Hey since a few have claimed that the 30-06 and the 7-08 are the best Deer hunting ctg made.
Lets comprmise and take the 7-08 and short lighter action and neck it up to the the same bullet of the 30-06 and make the absolute best deer hunting round ever made .308 Win.    ::)

See, as a HUNTING round, I never could abide by the .308 Win.  Not that it isn't great round...because it is.  But the REASON it's a great round is because it's a "compromise" round.  They wanted to stay as close to the .30-06 as they could, in terms of 150-165 gr energy, while at the same time coming up with a round that would cycle better in the newly adopted semi-auto duty rifles.

And for THOSE TWO purposes...the .308 Win does it's job admirably. But as a HUNTING round, it's kind of the fat kid who can punch, but can never catch up to anyone. 

The 7MM-08 delivers 90% of the energy of the .308, with 30% less recoil (which equals better accuracy).  So for deer sized game, all you're doing with the .308 is making a bigger boom...but not better ballistics.

AND...if you want to hunt bigger game, nobody owning both a .30-06 AND a .308 would grab the latter.  Because blasting 180 grains out of a .308 is REALLY stretching it's abilities.  Out of the '06...it's the SWEET spot, and isn't itself getting stretched until you get to 240 grains.

SO.  While the .308 makes a great tactical compromise for sniping or murdering paper targets...it is NOT a satisfactory compromise for hunting.  Better to own the other two calibers. 8)
So far all the white tails and the one Mule deer I have shot with the 308 have taken one round.
The Pig I shot with it was DRT.
I have a loading manual that has the 308 moving 165 grain bullets faster than the 30-06 loads are moving the same bullet.
But I shoot 180 grain bullets out of mine for White tail and have had no problems with Bang Flop.  So far all the Deer have taken a single shot from My rifle.  The Mulre deer stood up and took a step and my buddy shot him in the neck with his 257 but the 165 grain 308 hit both lungs, nicked the heart and if he ran it was not going to be far.
And I do Own both a 308 and a 30-06 and if I am hunting the 308 goes with me.
If I need bigger I go to my 338 but that is a different post.
And hey if you like 7-08 that is fine.  It is just 7X57 mauser on a short action like 308 is 30-06 on a short action.
 

Offline Bart Solo

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 706
  • Gender: Male
Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #41 on: March 14, 2012, 11:59:15 AM »
I have been thinking that a discussion of the relative merits of the 270 and the 7MM-08 would be more interesting.

Offline Swampman

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (44)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16518
  • Gender: Male
Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #42 on: March 14, 2012, 12:05:14 PM »
I see no reason to give up the power of the .270 for a puny newcomer.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Dave in WV

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2162
Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #43 on: March 14, 2012, 02:38:59 PM »
This deer may know the difference. The rest prolly don't. ::)
Setting an example is not the main means of influencing others; it is the only means
--Albert Einstein

Offline Dave in WV

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2162
Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #44 on: March 14, 2012, 02:44:47 PM »
I own both and I can't tell a difference other than my 30-06 has less felt recoil at the bench. :o
The 7-08 is a Rem 7600 and the 30-06 is a M70 stainless classic with a laminated stock.
Setting an example is not the main means of influencing others; it is the only means
--Albert Einstein

Offline scootrd

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2745
Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #45 on: March 14, 2012, 04:49:00 PM »
I see no reason to give up the power of the .270 for a puny newcomer.

I wouldn't consider the 7mm-08 a newcomer. It;s been around since the late 50's , commercialized in 1980.
For whitetails I achieve matched '06 performance with a more compact setup. Does everything my ole '06
did on NE whitetails , just does it more efficiently with less recoil and it's a true deerslayer . 

Here is one man's version of an ideal Maine deer rifle. I happen to agree with his cartridge selection (7mm-08) for the the terrain he hunts, which is similar to the terrain I hunt where most shots are within 50 -150 yards.

http://www.sportingjournal.com/main79.shtml (Bart you may enjoy reading)

If you feel you need a heavier bullet for those monstrous super think skinned swamp deer stick with your '06. :)
Just pokin fun.

But in NE a Remmy mod seven partnered with a 7mm-08 140gr core-loKt is a package that is pretty tough to beat.

But again, to each his own.if someone has a rig that works for 'em stick with it. As for me and my needs the 7mm-08 made more sense over my old '06 which now hangs over my mantle nowdays retired in honor.
"if your old flathead doesn't leak you are out of oil"
"I have strong feelings about gun control. If there is a gun around I want to be controlling it." - Clint Eastwood
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjaman Franklin
"It's better to be hated for who you are , then loved for who your not." - Van Zant

Offline Bart Solo

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 706
  • Gender: Male
Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #46 on: March 14, 2012, 04:53:24 PM »
I see no reason to give up the power of the .270 for a puny newcomer.
I am not going to argue with you, but the two rounds do seem to share the same space.  Comparing them seems to make more sense than comparing the 7MM 08 with the 30-06. 

The best whitetail hunter I know personally uses a Remington 700 in  270 when he isn't shooting black powder.  He laughs at his brother and me with our 30-06s.  He says the 270 is all the gun he needs for just about everything.   
 

Offline Nudge6771

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 36
Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #47 on: March 14, 2012, 05:04:28 PM »
 Bart Solo: 

.270 Win is a GREAT ole round.  As Chuck Hawks says, it is THE STANDARD by which all other long-range calibers are judged.
 
 But in the Northeast, given both the shooting distances, and the modest size of the whitetails here, I give the 7MM-08 the edge.  And that, while fully acknowledging the .270 Win gives superior ballistic performance.  Why?  Because ripping that 130 gr .277 pill at sub-150 yard distances has resulted in more than a few exploding bullets, and/or deer that appear to have been grenade stricken.
 
 So, the 7MM-08 flinging 140's at moderate velocities...no problem.  ANd if the '06 got the nod that day...well, at least you're moving a heavier .308 diameter bullet at high velocity, instead of lighter .277 diameter.  Bigger wound channel, greater likelihood the bullet performs as advertized, etc.
 McWood:

I'm gonna have to challenge the ".308 Win spits faster than the .30-06" comment.  I have yet to see a SINGLE identical bullet load perform even closely in the Win.  It's a simple matter of cubic inches and carburator, really.  The 12mm longer case is the cubic inches...the extra power is the carburator.

Offline Nudge6771

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 36
Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #48 on: March 14, 2012, 05:06:20 PM »
(edit)

"...extra powder..."

Offline bajabill

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (5)
  • A Real Regular
  • *****
  • Posts: 712
Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #49 on: March 14, 2012, 06:29:47 PM »
Some of this is getting off the deep end.

So I might add that hodgdon has youth loads that will make the 3006 every bit as effective as the 708

Mcwood, what do you really think about that 1 data point showing more energy for a 308 than a 3006? I really think you know.

Offline LanceR

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 420
Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #50 on: March 15, 2012, 04:07:34 AM »
Some of this is getting off the deep end.


A little? 

The OP didn't claim any to offer any definitive be-all declarations he offered an opinion.  It might be worth it to g back and read his hypothesis. 

For "most hunting environments and terrains" it doesn't matter if your rifle is a .260 Remington or a .458 Winchester Magnum for deer hunting as long as you choose an appropriate bullet and put it in a vital area.

The considerable majority of deer taken anywhere in the US or Canada are taken at less than 100 yards and numerous surveys by magazines, governmental agencies etc have repeatedly come to that same conclusion for decades.  In the Eastern US that number drops to 65 yards.

Since the original hypothesis was about "most hunting environments and terrains" the issue of what happens at long range is somewhat moot for the majority of us.  Pole vault over mouse turds all you want but deer are pretty fragile as big game goes and just don't need all that much killing.  Besides, I dare anyone to prove that a few more pounds of energy or a few feet per second ever makes all that much difference in the long run. 

After all, have you ever heard someone who after muffing a shot at the deer of a lifetime claimed something like "Gee, if I'd just had 37 more FPS on the bullet I'd have had him!" or how about "Dag-nab it!  If I'd had 63 more pounds or energy in that bullet that buck would be on the wall!"  or maybe "Geez, if my trajectory had been 3/4" flatter at 150 yards I'd have made that 230 yard shot!"

Most of us shoot better with less recoil.  The 7mm-08 is one of several cartridges that offer the significant majority of us all the energy and other attributes we'll ever need when deer hunting and they do it in what are usually more compact and lighter rifles than a 30-06, 270 or 7mm Magnum.

As for rifle weight, most short action rifles weigh a half pound or less under the weight of the similar make and model of long action rifle.  When taking a half pound of weight difference and using typical power charges for the original loads cited there is still a 20% or so recoil reduction when going from the -06 to the -08 so if all other things remain equal the recoil reduction is still worth considering.  For what it is worth, despite catalog weights a bigger drop in bore diameter to say, .243, wipes out a good chunk of the weight drop since the barrel blank is the same size but it now has a considerably smaller hole in it and the result is a heavier barrel.  Try putting similar long action rifle and short action one on a scale and you might be surprised how little weight difference there is and the closer the weights are the more the 7mm-08 offers in recoil reduction.

Felt recoil is a whole different critter and is usually pretty dependent on stock shape, facial shape, neck length etc.  What I feel at 6'4" and 235 pounds with a long neck and wide face is going to be different from a person with a different body shape even with the same load and gun.  My block head does not like high combs in heavy recoil guns much since it often means that I get slap in the cheekbone.  I also prefer the feel of a wide butt over a skinny butt since I perceive it as being more comfortable.  While some folks like the feel of a slender stock and wrist I have big ol' mitts and like a fairly full wrist and forearm.  To me stock shape and profile have more to do with felt recoil than the actual amount or velocity of the recoil.

One thing is for sure.  Each of us is responsible for choosing a cartridge and bullet combination that will be effective for the purpose and we are responsible to put that bullet in the right place.  There are a lot of combinations that will get that done and since it is an individual choice none of us is qualified to make blanket declarations of suitability but only to give opinions-like the OP did.

Lance

Offline mannyrock

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2081
Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #51 on: March 15, 2012, 04:58:38 AM »
 
    In all seriousness, as a prior poster has said, splitting the difference between these two cartridges gives you the finest deer hunting round at any range, and that is the .308 Winchester.   All of the advantages of both rounds, with none of the disadvantages of either.  And again, we are talking deer hunting here, not elk or grizzly.
 
   Regards, Mannyrock

Offline Nudge6771

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 36
Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #52 on: March 15, 2012, 05:50:28 AM »
LanceR said:
"I also prefer the feel of a wide butt over a skinny butt since I perceive it as being more comfortable."

I won't argue with you there buddy.  I won't say it was the ONLY reason I married my wife, but it certainly was part of the equation.

- Nudge

Online Lloyd Smale

  • Moderators
  • Trade Count: (32)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18262
Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #53 on: March 16, 2012, 12:45:12 AM »
ill argue this a bit. Dont know your idea of what a middling gun is but for most guns in this catagory are all they can afford and are great guns. As to the new 70s trading on a name ill say this. Go and buy one and youll find its hands down the best fit and finished winchester bolt gun ever made PERIOD. Much nicer then a pre 64 gun and they will hands down outshoot a pre 64 gun to boot. As to swampys 270/7o8 compartison. Load 130s in both and theres very littel differnce in power and NO deer would know the differnce in which hit it. that been said im not a big fan of either. the 708 to me belongs in a nice compact 20 inch or shorter gun and for what i use those types of guns for the 308 serves me better. It hits hard and shoots plenty flat for 250 yards. The 7o8 does nothing better and to be real honest more times then not if im hunting in a short range area ill have a 257 roberts or 250 savage on me. To If im hunting an area that could give me 300 or more yard shots id at least want 2506 or  a 22 inch barreled gun in 280 or 06 and would probably grab a mag of some kind. As to the 270 i detest it and do for some stupid reasons but there my reasons. I much prefer the 280 and o6. Funny how some guns just trigger a love and some dont. Ive got nothing against a 708. It will definately get the job done. Ive never owned one but wouldnt be beyond trying one someday. there has NEVER been a 270 in my safe and there NEVER will be. Again it will get the job done and ive shot deer with other guys 270s but it just doesnt trip my trigger. 
Uh...I'm gonna take the other side of part of that.  1.5 MOA is solid out of any gun, despite all the "sub-MOA guarantees" bandied about these days.  And that's PARTICULARLY true of middling guns like Rem 7 (a solid mid-price gun) and the Win 70 (a decent Japanese gun trading on the famous name of what it ONCE was).

My Rem 700 shoots about 1 MOA, be it 100 or 300 yards.  with a Saturday afternoon's worth of work pillar and glass bedding it, my sense is that could be improved. 

But this isn't what we should even be talking about.

You commented that the 7MM-08 was your least favorite caliber...CALIBER...which has little to do with the fact that you owned two guns of middling quality which didn't shoot it to your expectation.  You do realize that says nothing about the caliber, right?  It MIGHT not even say anything about those guns in general, as you may simply have had lesser examples.
If you've owned guns a long time, then you KNOW that they all have personalities, and that even top models like Rem 700, Ruger M77, Savage 110, etc...have their 'lemons.'

What does that ever say about the "caliber" though?

If you owned a Mustang GT that didn't run as fast as you expected...would you then say that V8's were terrible engines?
blue lives matter

Offline scootrd

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2745
Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #54 on: March 17, 2012, 02:14:52 PM »

    In all seriousness, as a prior poster has said, splitting the difference between these two cartridges gives you the finest deer hunting round at any range, and that is the .308 Winchester.   All of the advantages of both rounds, with none of the disadvantages of either.  And again, we are talking deer hunting here, not elk or grizzly.
 
   Regards, Mannyrock

Manny,
Your thoughts regarding this article comparing 7mm-08 vs .308 ? The author took the opposite opinion regarding advantages/disadvantages - 

http://www.accurateshooter.com/cartridge-guides/7mm/#7mm08

excerpt...

With the exception of neck diameter, the 7mm-08 is virtually the same dimensionally. But when you compare heavy bullets, grain for grain, the 7mm-08 offers better ballistics. In other words a 168-grainer fired from a 7mm-08 will exhibit less drop and less windage than a 168gr bullet fired from a .308 Win. The 7mm-08 enjoys most of the advantages of the .308 (inherent accuracy, long barrel life, excellent terminal performance) while offering better ballistics grain for grain. (and I would add less recoil).

can the .270, .308, 30-06 kill whitetails ? You bet , been doing it for years.

My own opinion, I still conclude the 30-06 is overkill for whitetails.
In the steep NE terrain I hunt  -  a compact lightweight rig
paired with a 7mm-08 140gr core-lokt cartridge
is more efficient than any of the above mentioned and makes the perfect
whitetail getter. 
"if your old flathead doesn't leak you are out of oil"
"I have strong feelings about gun control. If there is a gun around I want to be controlling it." - Clint Eastwood
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjaman Franklin
"It's better to be hated for who you are , then loved for who your not." - Van Zant

Offline Swampman

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (44)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16518
  • Gender: Male
Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #55 on: March 17, 2012, 03:08:46 PM »
There's no such thing as overkill.  Dead is dead.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline scootrd

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2745
Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #56 on: March 17, 2012, 03:23:09 PM »
There's no such thing as overkill.  Dead is dead.

Of course there is.
I define overkill as excessive cartridge need required to put a whitetail down between 50-150 yards effectively.
You can define as your terrain requirements dictate.
"if your old flathead doesn't leak you are out of oil"
"I have strong feelings about gun control. If there is a gun around I want to be controlling it." - Clint Eastwood
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjaman Franklin
"It's better to be hated for who you are , then loved for who your not." - Van Zant

Offline Swampman

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (44)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16518
  • Gender: Male
Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #57 on: March 17, 2012, 03:35:30 PM »
Dead is dead....
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline mcbammer

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2249
  • Gender: Male
Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #58 on: March 17, 2012, 03:48:10 PM »
When   ole   uncle   arthor  itis   hits   you   young   guys   youll leave   the  06er   in   the   closet   and   pick  up   the   08 . 

Offline Nudge6771

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 36
Re: 30-06 (Hatfield) VS 7MM-08 (McCoy) -Let the feud begin :)
« Reply #59 on: March 17, 2012, 05:07:13 PM »
ScootRD:

The piece on AccurateShooter is essentially the same as what's on "6br," as well as comments in Boston's Gun Bible (a VERY good publication written by a VERY well respected guy, who wrote it under a pseudonym).  ALL agree, and ballistics and harvest data have pretty much proven, that not only is the 7MM-08 as good or better in hunting scenarios...but is what the military SHOULD have gone to in the 1950's.  Boston, in particular, lays out a host of technical reasons why this is the case.

Swampman:

Your comments are puzzling.  Are you a killer?  Or a hunter? ???   Because a HUNTER wants (a) to harvest the animal ethically (meaning, use ENOUGH gun to make a clean kill so you aren't tracking a deer hit by a quartering shot from a puny .223 or something), but at the same time (b) WANTS TO EAT THE MEAT (meaning not SO MUCH gun that he's going to bloodshot and tear up the meat). 

Blowing the living daylights out of anything should NOT be one's goal if they want to fill their freezer with the maximum amount of meat.


If I run into another knuckle-dragging idiot (ALWAYS a visitor...never a local) here in the Adirondacks sitting at the edge of a 100 yard field holding a .300 RUM he intends to "hunt" a 130-180 lb whitetail with, I'm going to explode...  Well, I MIGHT explode...the deer definitely will.

Why is it that THAT GUY is always 5'7", 130 lbs, wearing "tactical gear," and has a nervous twitch and a goatee??