Caribou with a 22 hornet

[SHOOTALL]

In F&S this issue there is a story about hunting gray wolf way up north. In the process of the hunt the guide ask if shooting a Caribou would be ok with the hunters. All agreeded and the guide pulls out a 22 hornet and takes a Caribou. Cut it open and eats liver and some of the stomach contents . These guys know how to survive . I have also read about guides using 22 mags to take moose. Maybe the 223 isn't such a bad choice ( can't believe I said that , mouse gun and all  ).

[Shu]

Not my first choice for big game but if a hunter takes there time and can make that first shot count. The problem is most don't want to wait for the perfect shot or have the discipline to make it.

I have heard of those Alaskans using some awfully small calibers. Maybe they do know something.

[Bugflipper]

I believe if I were up there I would load for bear and it really wouldn't matter if I was fox hunting or what. Read too many stories on here about bear at close distances and all they had were varmint rounds. Also remember some of the AK members complaining of Eskimos using 22lr for poaching moose along the shore. I imagine anything is possible with a well placed or lucky shot. I just like my hide better than being in bear country with varmint rounds.

[bigbird09]

Them folks are a different breed up there.  One thing that they have that most down here don't is the ability to survive,  for them its their way of life.

[Pat/Rick]

 Wouldn't be my choice but...........

[SHOOTALL]

Them folks are a different breed up there.  One thing that they have that most down here don't is the ability to survive,  for them its their way of life.

my point , When they hunt they have to carry everything they need in a harsh enviroment. They carry a light rifle and ammo that gives more bangs per pound . They understand where they live and its critters. Many here offer that a M-4 set up in 5.56 would fill the survival rifle bill nicely . I always offer a M1-A would be better. Here we can't hunt deer with a 223/5.56 so I tried a 6.8 AR and it was ok . By ok i mean it carried well and worked well .No a 5.56 may not kill as fast as a 308 on game but in a survival time will we care ? The critter may take a while to die but the extra ammo will offer more critters . I guess that's a taste of their world.

[pastorp]

One of the bigest reasons for native peoples using light calibers in artic Alaska is the cost of air freight to their villages. 

Regards,

[mcwoodduck]

In the book the Last Ivory Hunter, by Peter Capstick, Walley Johnson talks about his son's friend from boarding school comming to hunt with him and bringing a 22 Hornet,  Walley thought it would be good for smaller antelope and saw the kid shoot a running cape buffalo and in his words pile him up.  From what I remember it was a neck hit.
I think with the right bullets it is capable of taking larger game than you normally think.
I have seen a deer shot with the little hornet.  The 46 grain bullet entered the chest cavity and came apart on a rib and turned into shrapnel and shreaded the lungs from about 60 to 70 yards away.
But as with any center fire 22 for big game, shot placement and bullet construction are the iussue.
Varmint bullets may not enter the chest cavity.  After all they are made for maximum effect on animals up to 35 pounds with light skin and hits with even pistol ctgs would penetrate but the varmint rounds would just blow a base ball sized hole in a shoulder.
I think the 22 hornet and other 22 center fires for big game are for experienced shooters, where legal.
But as many say shoot the largest caliber you can well.  I think a wider heavier bullet is always better.  But that is why there are so many different options that are all correct.

[SHOOTALL]

One of the bigest reasons for native peoples using light calibers in artic Alaska is the cost of air freight to their villages. 

Regards,

No doubt true. In a survival situation wouldn't we all be in a similar situation ie if you don't have it you might not get it ? with a 223/5.56 barter with soilders might be an option as well as getting ammo off ones not in need of it any more.

[bigbird09]

308 on game but in a survival time will we care

Actually this could go both ways,  the longer it takes for that animal to expire, the farther he might be traveling in the wrong direction,  which mean you burn more energy packing meat and hide back to camp.

[don heath]

I have seen a .22 Hornit used on buffalo...one lad read that Bell had used it on buff and wanted to try (Bell used a .22 Savage). He shot five buffalo on the one cull with his trusty .22 Hornit. Killed 2 and left three wounded ones to be followed up by others. I was one of the others and nearly got squashed.

My whole life I have been one of the 'small bore' group of Professional Hunters using a 9,3x62 and a .375 for everything where most PH's use a .416 and up. I have killed elephant with a 7x57 and a .308 win and taken buffalo with  a .308 win on control operations. There is a point though of diminishing returns. Every buff I have taken with a .308 has needed more than one shot. No buff I have shot with my 9,3 has ever needed more than one round.  My point is- it is possible to go 'too light'. In a survival situation you want food- and the ability to take a shot from any angle, not limited to perfect broadside or neck shots only. When I have had 'unscheduled' wilderness stops care of my 1946 Piper or 1964 landrover my 9,3 or semi auto .308 have taken small game (guinea fowl to impala) very nicely thank you, while at the same time providing a comfortable insurance against bad people and dangerous animals.

[Lloyd Smale]

ive shot deer with the hornet. Im sure a hornet to the brain buck of a caribou would kill it with no problem. Now would i shot a cape buffalo with one. NOT THIS GUY! I also wouldnt go out hunting even deer and take out a hornet. Like Don said it might get the job done on a perfect shot but a perfect shot is not allways an option. I think alot of so called experts get carried away with the bs when it comes to telling a guy what power level of a gun is needed for something like deer elk or caribou but theres a limit to how low a guy should go and when it comes to something that can bite back or stomp you that limit really goes up. Also like Don said in a survival situation you want meat on the ground and dont want to expend energy chasing around wounded animals. My guess is that guy probalbly had only one gun and it was probably given to him by his dad and its probably all he can afford. He made due with what he had but id bet a dime to a dollar that he would have traded it for a good o6 in a second if the opportunity presented itself.

[pastorp]

Lloyd, I really doubt he would trade, have you ever been in a artic village and priced the ammo in one. Actually the 223 is curently the most popular caliber in the artic. Partly because of the mini-14, and partly because of free ammo through the national guard units there.   

Regards,

[SHOOTALL]

The thought I had is amount of ammo you can carry and chance of resupply . Also most would shoot small game first as it is more efficent when on the move .

[Shu]

I understand the need to pack light in artic conditions because of the amount of gear needed to survive. A day spent without shelter could easily be fatal. In the lower 48 it could be uncomfortable. Those "crazy" Alaskans have to pack extra clothing, some type of fuel for heat, extra food (you burn alot more calories), first aid supplies etc. so a small caliber rifle would make sense.  Cost, survival gear, weight vs comfort.
I don't advocate going light on caliber for game. Shot placement is still critical, I would guess mostly head shots.
Seems in Alaska while hunting you have plenty of time, and you do need to pack extra gear. How often does the wind chill get to 50 below in the lower 48. Survival at that temp would be short.

[SHOOTALL]

I don't see it as temp. alone . If I had to walk I doubt carrying a heavy load would work long. My eng. bag has a change of clothes , a extra pair of socks, pocho and liner, First aid , lighters and matches , canteen and cup , Leatherman tool , knife , small sharpner , food etc smaller rounds mean more rounds .

[Spanky]

I shoot deer with my 22 Hornets. It kills 'em dead every time. I take heart/lung shots and that little bullet knocks the stuffing out of 'em.



Spanky

[XD40SC]

Caribou aren't that hard to kill.I'd be reluctant to use it on a moose. Some of my relatives were in the butchering business. They killed alot of steers and pigs with a .22, but that was up close in the head. Distance and shot placement would be critical with that caliber.

[Justin10mm]

As some have said ammo weight is a big issue up north, but we are also talking the open expanses of the arctic, not to many trees for the animals to hide behind. So what if a wounded animal runs a couple hundred yards before expiring, you just hop on your snowmobile and go get it.

At least that is my take on why small centerfires are so popular with native hunters.

[351 power]

every situation is so specific that it's hard to compare one to another. how can you compare cape buff hunting to hunting migrating caribou? when i worked north above the tree line they went out to the migration track and shot what they wanted to eat. with light rifles taking only the best shots wiating for good chances and passing up others. never heard any concerns of bears or stopping power. can i hunt like that here at home. no i hunt the rut in season not a migration. can ph's hunt the rut? not necessarily i guess. it's paying customers that call the when and force the circumstances

[SHOOTALL]

Not talking PH's guiding hunters here the idea is long term with little chance od resupply of ammo. The hunter would not take low percent shots as it would be a waste of ammo .

[Drilling Man]

  From what i have personally witnessed myself, the natives shoot caribou and anything else that walks with a .223, usally a mini 14.  If it falls, they go get it, if it runs off wounded, they go look for something easier.  I've seen quite a few caribou run off gut shot by natives that empty 30 round mags into herds of caribou.

  This isn't the natives of yester-year!  They don't give a rip like the old natives did...

  As for shipping.  Did you know we subsidize that?  I saw a native send cement blocks through the mail to the bush, as they have a cheap max post office rate.  He sent enough to build a building at tax payers expense!  It just took a long time, as he could only send 2 or 3 at a time...

  DM

[Rex in OTZ]

Ive lived on the NW Arctic Coast for a while, a guy notices what the other fellas around you use and why, allot of what is said is like a local rumor thers a grain of truth to some it,
 I do know of a few guys useing the Ruger Mini -14, mainly for shooting wolves ($400 with legs) primarly hunted for the money and the chase, wolverene and Lynx secondary, they may shoot a fat caribou if one happen's to be around & they have room on the sled the
 I'd say the most used round here is the .243 Winchester,
with polar bears sticking to the sea Ice (what ther is of it) staying by ther food source, and the other two types denned up for winter ther is no call to pack heavy artillary till they come out there dens, by then pelts arnt much and the snow's punchy so ya go ice fishing instead
there was a fella in Noatak that used only a .22mag (H&K300) took allot of caribou, a 870 Remington 12ga was all he needed, he claimed the .243 was a little light on bear.
Allot carry the smaller calibers because there more concerned with accuracy than power.
they rather shoot 2-3 .223 rounds in vitals than mess with recoil of a 30-06 or 270,
 these guy's make do with what they have, a box of .223 Rem is $28, a box of 30-06 $43, gasoline is $6.40 a gallon at the pump, 2-cycle mix oil is $15 a quart, 70% the regions households have only one breadwinner or seasonal source of income, most folks are in some sort of Govt assistance program of one type or another (WIK, Heating Assistance, Quest Card)
Ive seen allot of .22Hornet on the shelf (50 count box for $65) and .17Rem but these are mainly used for seal hunting not caribou.

[BBF]

As some have said ammo weight is a big issue up north,...................So what if a wounded animal runs a couple hundred yards before expiring,
 
 
                                 you just hop on your snowmobile and go get it. ...............

So ammo weight really isn't the problem!

[bilmac]

I read an old article in "The Rifleman", may have been from the 40s or maybe the 50s. This was from the time when a lot of the eskimos were still using dogsleds. The author who was up there for a hunting trip said that a lot of the natives used hornets. The reason they told him was that they reloaded with a tong tool, and the tools and components for a hornet were about the most light weight and compact that they could carry. Yup, there are a lot of bad actors amongst them now, but some of them are still good ol' boys just like us.