Robert Lewis Dabney

[littlecanoe]

I have read just a bit of R L Dabney's writings.  I know that many within Presbyterian circles, well, reformed circles in America revere him as a great and insightful theologian.  I was surprised, pleasantly, a few years ago, to find that he was Stonewall Jackson's chaplain.  Have any of you researched him and his contributions or do you have any stories concerning his time with Jackson during the war?

lc

[williamlayton]

Stonewall. What a Christian.
Blessings

[SouthernByGrace]

I haven't lc. If you can get some details on him, I would love to read about him.

SBG

[littlecanoe]

I haven't read any Bio on Dabney.  Just some of his writings.

I wish Oldtimer posted here.  He seemed to be up on reading on such things.
Haven't seen him around for a while.

[williamlayton]

Give OT a ring.
HUMMMMM--Dabney is an interesting study. I only know of him in association with Jackson. A very learned man, DD in the Presbyterian Church---Old School Presbyterian---which is a whole nother discussion, this old and new.
He and Jackson were a fit---pre-ordained fit.
Where could this conversation go if given the freedom?
OH WELL!
Blessings

[Oldtimer]

OK so here I am.  Dabney was married the second time to one of Stonewall Jackson's cousins, so there was a family connection.  He spent a considerable amount of time in and around Hampden-Sidney College, as student, professor, and pastor.  The school still exists today as a men's college, one of the few men's single-sex colleges in the US.  He was quite renowned as a pastor and theologian in the US and turned down important positions in the North because of his pro-slavery views.  He continued to expound these after the Civil War.  He lost three of his eight children in three weeks due to an outbreak of diphtheria ( which nearly killed my mother, also).  Here is an example of his pro-slavery writings: http://www.portagepub.com/products/causouth/dabney-virginia.html

Here is a site that has an interesting biography, filled with Civil War anecdotes about him.  Jackson made him an officer, and he was spectacularly unsuited to the job, even carrying an umbrella instead of a saber:  http://www.knowsouthernhistory.net/Biographies/RL_Dabney/

For his theological positions, here is another good site:  http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/dabney.htm

Enjoy!

[williamlayton]

It is difficult but, one must be able to separate the Christianity from the slavery issue.
Slavery and the thought is a learned behavior and to subject it otherwise is not logical. One must believe that all the folklore about subjugation of another race is true---the learned part.
The hard part is understanding that it is not true, by any means of testing.
Dabney's ancestor, well one of them, was tried in a Presbyterian Church hearing because he favored Universialism---some thought.
That is about all that I know about him.
Stonewall's detractors---and there were many---claimed, with some amount of accuracy, that he preferred a good Presbyterian Lt. over a good Lt.
Blessings

[williamlayton]

OT
Thanks for those links. I am not much on studying detail from the net--perhaps, after the last two days I might reconsider that position.
I enjoyed the study---might have questions I would like to ask in person---and insight into the contradictions of man. We all are contradictory, even though we would deny it to the grave.
On studying from the net:
There is a tendency to seek answers that we want to hear, that confirm our ego and mind, rather than listen to what is said in contradiction to our leanings.
Youcan not grow thru reinforcement of the mind but by challenging yourownself to see if the magic of your own mind can stand to the challenge.
I enjoyed.
Blessings

[littlecanoe]

Thanks for the links OT.
When life is a bit calmer I'll give them a look.
I do hope to read a bit of Dabney in the future.

WL,  I'm reminded of David who was called a "man after God's heart" and we know his short comings.  And Jacob the heel grasper. 
I believe that if we consider Hebrews 11 and those listed there we will see these same tendencies and shortcomings.
If we are then honest with ourselves, we will see that we fit right in to that family portrait.
Consider the Anabaptists (sp) complaints against Calvin.

[williamlayton]

YUP.
Blessings

[williamlayton]

LC & OT
Thanks a lot for causing me a great headache.
I am a bit confused by Dabney. On the one hand he speaks in Calvineese and at the turn speaks in Free willingness.
I think he get the cart before the horse when exampling man's consciousness as a prelude to faith. Man's will allowing faith to come about.
I think you go back, prior to consciousness, to find the Ears unfettered by God's enlightenment.
I am reminded about a Conversation that Einstein had with another pysics professor. They were in the midst of WWII and feverishly trying to split the atom. The theory was sound but the how to was not found at the time. This physics professor explained his thoughts in detail to Einstein and a light came to einstein who responded simply--"I never thought of that."
Such is the way of salvation. It is not a light we allow but a light we are allowed.
What do you think?
Blessings

[Oklahoma Lefty]

Here is an interesting DVD to watch on the subject "Warriors of Honor: Robert E. Lee & Stonewall Jackson"

And a book you might enjoy Life and Campaigns of Stonewall Jackson (Battlefield Evangelism) [Hardcover]
Robert Lewis Dabney

[williamlayton]

Thanks lefty. Might look into the book.
It certainly is not a suprising marriage between these two Christians, if you look at it pragmatically.
The people who scan history might scoff at them being called Christians, being involved in such a bloody conflict, and, one that would, on the surface, try and define a Christian by who would defend slavery and who would be fighting to end it.
I don't think that Slavery was a mainforce in most who participated--those who actually took part--not the ones who sat on the sidelines and urged the war for a pro or con view of slavery.
I also don't think that slavery--pro or con--defines one as being a Christian or not.
It is evident, to those who investigate, that these two were Christians.
I have heard some say that God favored the anti-slavery bunch and it is obvious because they won. God had a plan, He was not caught off guard by this episode. He was surely not punishing either of these two men because the war did not go in their favor or that Stonewall was killed.
That is humanistic thinking.
I am more than convienced that Stonewall did cross the river to rest in the shade on the other side.
Blessings

[Oklahoma Lefty]

I also believe that about Thomas (Stonewall Jackson. His history is one really worth reading.

[williamlayton]

Thanks for the discussion LEFTY. It is uplifting.
Blessings
Bill

[Oklahoma Lefty]

You are very welcome, I have enjoyed this post as well

Here is a side of Stonewall that many don't know, he taught and supported black Sunday school class.

"In my tent last night, after a fatiguing day's service, I remembered that I failed to send a contribution for our colored Sunday school. Enclosed you will find a check for that object, which please acknowledge at your earliest convenience and oblige yours faithfully". (Lt. General Thomas Jackson, in a letter to his Pastor)

Soli Deo Gloria

[williamlayton]

Yes, he did do that.
It is very complex.
Blessings

[ironfoot]

I think a lot of the Bible describes historical events without expressly endorsing or condemning. Just because the Bible mentions slavery doesn't mean slavery is endorsed. Jesus gave us  two broad instructions to guide our conduct:
‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbour as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

http://www.prayerguide.org.uk/Bible%20Verses/bible13.htm

Those commandments set a pretty high bar, and none of us live up to them fully.
Jesus didn't give a list of does and don'ts but it seems to me that the Golden Rule does not endorse slavery.

OK, I'll quit preaching now.

[littlecanoe]

Sorry to have been away and neglect this thread.
We moved and were without convenient Internet for about 7 weeks.

WL,
Can you reference your observation of Dabney from your March 9 post? 
The issue of free will in light of the bondage of the will, what the natural will is capable of is likely at play there.
I've been reading "The Cost of Discipleship" by Deitrich Bonhoeffer.  He discusses the interaction of obedience and faith in one chapter.  Your observation reminds me of his discussion.

Ironfoot, you make a good point about the two commands.  It's made the more difficult when we realize that the Greek states Agape as the verb in both!  Wow.

It is definitely interesting to consider these deeper issues of character and belief as we look at the history of the War.  I believe that, by nature, we tend to consider ourselves right for the most part and fail to see the conflicts within our own views of faith, religion, civil duty etc.  If we really study these fella's we will see a reflection of ourselves.  In Stonewall and Dabney I am encouraged as I see two men strong in faith and commitment to God standing at odds to my views of slavery.  In this I am reminded of Grace and my inabilities. 

As OL said.  Soli Deo Gloria!

[williamlayton]

Bonhoeffer? Why do you read them German thoughts---they give me headaches?
He tries--in my view--to put it in human understanding.
I cannot put faith into understanding--well human understanding. I understand we are talking between humans here, but it is at a level above human understanding.
See, I am an old Hippie, and the term "be real" means something--it is beyond understanding--it is real.
These old boys had an advantage we don't, today, "real" was an everyday occurance and it didn't take alot of conversation--much less, explaining. We want things explained.
Dabney---from my one grain of sand study--was not burdened by understanding. It was.
At the same instance, he can't understand that folks don't understand.
His is from a black/white perspective---his black/white. I think he to be correct it is just that he doesn't stop to think that what he says is contradictory for those who don't know what the heck he is taliking about. he expects everyone to be on the same page--his page.
You got the place sold-huh? Where are you---someplace where you can start your own community? Seems like you are well on your way, all by yourownselves.
How is everybody--that girl of yours is a woman by now, I expect.
We are gettin older--and loving it. The Lord is more real everyday.
Blessings
Bill

[Swampman]

History can only be judged in an historical context.  The Bible in no wise condemns slavery.  I'm not saying it's right mind you.

Great post...

[Oklahoma Lefty]

Pro 18:17  The first to plead his case seems right, Until another comes and examines him.

As proverbs says, it may all look right until another come along with more information, this indeed is a complex issue and as Swampman said it must be looked at in the historical context, context is king when it come to understanding. Now Dietrich Bonhoeffer, that is a whole new can of worms and his stand against Hitler, for which he died. All this sure gives you something to think about.

Carpe diem!

[williamlayton]

Carpe diem---them things use to sell for more than that an, you could buy mor'n one at a time.
Blessings

[littlecanoe]

Almost 17 and learning to drive Bill!  I'm watching the sun set down the field from the new house as I type.  House in town for sale if you want a summer home! :-)
Definitely on our way but likely finished.......................

WL there are definitely points of tension that we cannot join together.  I see more of them the more I attempt to learn and understand.  On the one level they make no sense then on the other................WOW

There are definitely comparisons with the civil and spiritual struggles that Bonnhoeffer saw and fought against.  There is nothing new under the sun!

[williamlayton]

Germans, as a culture, are anal. The best story I have to illustrate this point is the great German golfer, Bernard langer, it was told to me by his long time caddy.
On the golf course one day they were in the hunt and it was close to the end--Bernard needed birdies. The caddy was getting the yardage--to the front, the pin and the side. He said to Bernard as they stood by a sprinkler head they were using to calculate, he said it was 123 yards to the sprinkler. Bernard asked---is that to the front or back of the sprinkler?
I sometimes fall into that chasm. Wanting exactness--correctness. It is a terrible disease for there are no answers.
Blessings

[Oklahoma Lefty]

Guys,

I recommended a great DVD on Stonewall Jackson and Robert E. Lee a while back,

WARRIORS OF HONOR
T H E  F A I T H  &  L E G A C Y  O F
ROBERT E. LEE AND STONEWALL JACKSON 

it is on sale for $5.00 if anyone is interested, I ordered a copy myself, mine has been loaned out. It is a very interesting Documentary. Here is the link,

http://store.nicenecouncil.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=117%20

Hope you all have a great day

[ironfoot]

Littlecanoe, you said: "It is definitely interesting to consider these deeper issues of character and belief as we look at the history of the War.  I believe that, by nature, we tend to consider ourselves right for the most part and fail to see the conflicts within our own views of faith, religion, civil duty etc.  If we really study these fella's we will see a reflection of ourselves.......  In this I am reminded of Grace and my inabilities."

Well said, and same for me. 

[williamlayton]

The amazeing thing about grace is the ability to allow God to show us ourownselves in the fullness of our falabilities---To see how pitiful we really are and how great Grace really is.
We all fall so pitifully short.
Blessings

[Oklahoma Lefty]

Littlecanoe said,

"In this I am reminded of Grace and my inabilities."

It really drives home what Paul said, in Ephesians 2:1-8

Ephesians 2:1-8 (NASB)
1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,   
2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.   
3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.   
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,   
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),   
6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,   
7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.   
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;   

It is all grace!

[williamlayton]

Thank God.
Blessings