Newbie hand loading - .38 Special and .357 Magnum with unanticipated problem

[schuetzen]

I am a newbie at hand loading and have (finally) accumulated the equipment and supplies to start reloading soon.  I anticipated loading .38 Specials to begin with and then later .357 Magnums after I developed some skill.

The first bullets I ordered were Remington 125gr. Semi-Jacketed Hollow Point:
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=1601186739

Not knowing any better, I anticipated that they would likely be exactly as that used in the Remington .38 Special 125gr. Semi-Jacketed Hollow Point ammo that I recently purchased locally.  I also initially obtained .38 Special brass for reloading.

When I received the bullets, I noticed that the cannelure on the jacketed bullets was not in the same location as that used on the factory Remington .38 Special ammo.  Later, after I obtained some .357 Magnum brass, I then realized that these bullets were designed for .357 Mag not .38 Special.

On the following photo (sorry for the blurriness) the items shown, left to right:

A. Remington factory .38 Special ammo 125 gr Semi-Jacketed Hollow Point.
B. Remington factory bullet 125 gr Semi-Jacketed Hollow Point purchased from MidwayUSA.
C. Example of .38 Special case with bullet at a specification of 1.550" overall length.
D. Example of .357 Magnum case with bullet at a specification of 1.590" overall length.
E. Example of .38 Special with Rainier LeadSafe Bullet (no cannelure).
F. Example of .357 Magnum with Rainier LeadSafe Bullet (no cannelure).

Questions:

1. Can these Remington bullets with the higher placed cannelure be used with .38 Special loads?

2. If used with .38 Specials, should the bullet placement be lowered to make use of the cannelure or should the cannelure be ignored?

3. Wouldn't lowering the bullet placement cause unknown changed in pressures?

I am kind of disappointed that the cannelure location is not specified when purchasing as meant for .357 Magnum or .38 Special.  I may avoid buying them in the future with cannelures.

The Rainier LeadSafe Bullets, I ordered later, don't have cannelures, load using lead bullet loading data and are also more economical.  They are lead swaged bullets, not cast lead, and are electroplated copper instead of jacketed.  The manufacturer recommends using cast lead bullet loading data.

http://www.rainierballistics.com

[helotaxi]

1.550" is the MAX OAL for the .38 spl.  That bullet is meant to be loaded shorter than that.  Seat it to the cannelure.  I just looked in my collection of manuals, and while none of them listed that bullet, they all had 125gn JHP loaded right at 1.450".  Yes, that is a full 0.1" shorter than the max.

For the bullets without a cannelure, I would seat them to the length listed for the specific load data that you're using for starters.

ETA:  I've only seen a couple of bullets that are specifically for either the .38spl or the .357mag.  In those cases it has nothing to do with cannelure placement (you can seat to the cannelure for either/both with any suitable bullet) but rather is based on the bullet construction.  The 110gn Gold Dot, for example is designed specifically for the .38spl and the bullet might come apart in the bore at .357 pressures.  The 110gn UniCore on the other hand can be used with either and is seated to the cannelure with both.

[schuetzen]

1.550" is the MAX OAL for the .38 spl.  That bullet is meant to be loaded shorter than that. 

Thanks for pointing that out.  I have been overlooking the MIN OAL the load manuals.  I haven't come across a recipe for this exact bullet, but something similar by another manufacturer will probably do and I will intend to load them on the suggested starting grains.

[helotaxi]

I will intend to load them on the suggested starting grains.

Smart decision.  As far as length goes, for .38/.357 seat to the cannelure if the bullet has one every time.  With the .357, crimp into the cannelure as well.

[buck460XVR]

I will intend to load them on the suggested starting grains.

Smart decision.  As far as length goes, for .38/.357 seat to the cannelure if the bullet has one every time.  With the .357, crimp into the cannelure as well.

yep.......most of the time with revolver ammo, you seat the bullet to roll crimp into the center of the cannelure. OAL is not that important as long as the cartridge fits the chamber. The load  info given in manuals is probably relevant to the remmy bullet available to reloaders and not the bullet used for factory ammo. Factory ammo many times uses specific powders and other components not available to handloaders. Small differences in seating depth that change  case capacity is one reason reloaders always start low and works their way up when developing a load with new components.

[SHOOTALL]

I would bet that bullet is made to be pushed to +p+ or 357 mag speeds . In a revolver a good crimp is needed to keep the bullet from jumping the crimp and tieing up the action. This happens more with a hard kicking gun shooting lighter bullets. You will see some 357 mag J frames warning to not use light bullets and some Rugers because of cyl length. Making sure the bullet can be loaded into all cyl. lengths may be the reason for the bullet you have.
I find a good crimp helps accy also. I like a profile crimp better than a roll.

[McDerry]

A cannelure is not a crimp groove, its a weakend spot in the jacket wall to ensure proper expansion.  People just seem to like to use it as a crimping groove.  Ignore the cannelure and seat to someplace between minimal case over all length and the end of your cylinder,  if the cannelure is located some place between these two points obviously take advantage of it. 

[helotaxi]

A cannelure is not a crimp groove, its a weakend spot in the jacket wall to ensure proper expansion.

Reference?  Expansion scoring is skiving.  The cannelure does nothing for expansion, is pretty much always present on bullets meant to be crimped and absent on bullets meant for rounds that don't use a crimp.  The only other purpose with some rounds is to help the jacket and core stay together with expanding rounds like the Hornady Interlock and Remington Core-loc bullets.

From the Corbin bullet swaging website:

A cannelure - pronounced like "CAN-a-lure" - is a knurled groove impressed in a ring around the bullet. It is used to hold grease lubricant, as a crimping ring for the case neck, for identification, to help the jacket hold the core from shifting forward on impact, and as a guide in seating the bullet to the right depth in the case neck.

Compare this to "skiving."

http://www.wordnik.com/words/skiving

[McDerry]

A cannelure is not a crimp groove, its a weakend spot in the jacket wall to ensure proper expansion.

Reference?  Expansion scoring is skiving.  The cannelure does nothing for expansion, is pretty much always present on bullets meant to be crimped and absent on bullets meant for rounds that don't use a crimp.  The only other purpose with some rounds is to help the jacket and core stay together with expanding rounds like the Hornady Interlock and Remington Core-loc bullets.

From the Corbin bullet swaging website:

A cannelure - pronounced like "CAN-a-lure" - is a knurled groove impressed in a ring around the bullet. It is used to hold grease lubricant, as a crimping ring for the case neck, for identification, to help the jacket hold the core from shifting forward on impact, and as a guide in seating the bullet to the right depth in the case neck.

Compare this to "skiving."

http://www.wordnik.com/words/skiving

First off you using a reference that is creating its own definitions to use as a glossary(Corbin).  While they do mention it as a groove for crimping they also mention it as a guide for seating depth not as the seating depth.   If it is not in the right location we cant crimp into it now can we?   They also mention it is used to hold the core inplace on impact; if the soft core gets free of the jacket it will drastically over expand, inturn improper expansion as it is now shedding mass.

Cannelure is simply the french word for any canal/flute like object around the center of a cylinder (every acredited dictionary in the world), it just sounds better then "a groove".   As far as bullets go, it predates the repeating firearm and inturn does not facilitiate crimping directly as a firm crimp is not needed on a singleshot.  On a secondary note bullets without a cannelure are able to be crimped as well, but apparently our military doesn't seem to have a preference as we have used both options over the years for the 5.56 nato.

You also gave an example of how they ensure proper expansion on a jacketed bullet.  Over expansion and under expansion are both improper expansion.  The cannelure is a buckle point in the jacket, the vast majority of jacketed bullets with a cannelure when recovered will not have had petal expansion beyond the cannelure.  A stress riser in concept.

On another note, foresic science teaches to use the measurements of the relative cannelure location to the rest of the remaining bullet to help identify the bullet manufacture and inturn the available factory loadings.  Hence how they come to suspect the murder weapon was a .38 special instead of a 9mm.  Apparently there is no standardized location for the cannelure on bullets of similiar length shape and diameter, or other wise you could not determine its origins. This indirectly implies that they do not specify a directly given seating depth as the same  125gr .357 bullet can be used in a .357 magnum, a .38 special, a plain jane .38 smith, a .357 maximium or even a 9mm Luger, all with obviously different seating requirements.

The cannelure is not a crimp groove it is just handy to use it as such.   

[SHOOTALL]

Actually the word goes back to latin , The definition dosen't prove or dis prove the intended use the bullet maker had in mind when he applied the grove . As evidence I offer that Hornady puts double groves on some bullets to allow use in different cylinders of different revolvers and lever action rifles and states so in their lititure. As for predating jacketed bullets it was for lube on lead bullets and ease of loading to name but 2 Again why have a crimp grove on a muzzle loader ?, and post dating jacketed bullets its for copper to move into as the rifling interact with solid copper bullets . I don't believe the grove on a 9mm bullet vs a 357 bullet would ID the larger or smaller bullet that is much like writing down the height of 2 horses so you could always tell the white horse was taller than the brown one and know which was which. The idea that obsolete rounds can be used to discredit the grove placement because they fit by dia means little really.
 In reality bullets have groves for different reasons . Now the groves on 357 mag and 38 spl cases is to ID bullet weight and load used in the factory loading. Check it out Winchester are good at this.

[dks7895]

I have recently started reloading .357M as well.  I have a Marlin 1894C and a Ruger Blackhawk and wanted a cartridge that worked well in both, as these will be used for vermin and 50 yard shots on deer.  I decided on the following;

Hornady XTP 158gr
H110 - 15gr
CCI 550 primer
OAL - 1.580"

I have not loaded any .38SPL.  But you may want to look at the Hornady XTP 125gr.  Follow the specs in the load book and fine tune your load from there.  I always keep my loads within published specs.