Can we clarify "collective bargaining" please ?

[ironglow]

  I hear a lot of whining about Gov Walker wanting to end or outlaw "collective bargaining", is this true or just more spin ?  I have not read the bill, but perhaps someone here has; so I ask... 

   A) Does the bill actually say that collective bargaining shall be outlawed ?  Does it say that unions will no longer be listened to when they want to  negotiate a contract ?
 
     B) Or, does it merely give new hires a CHOICE if they want to join a union or not ? 
 Something was said this morning about one provision which allows the union members to choose each year if they wish to continue in the union. 


    So, does the actual situation match  A) or is it like B) ?
 
    If it is like A) that's pretty strong..   If it's like B), I think CHOICE is a good thing... don't have enough of it these days !

  OK..so mwhat is the position

[billy_56081]

OOPS IG I think you have exposed another of the parasites lies.

[lakota]

This is my understanding of it and it may be wrong:
State employees would no longer be able to bargain over wages or benefits. They would be punished for walking out(strike). They could not take the state to binding arrbitration. And it seems I read somewhere that wage increases would no longer be automatic but would be based on ...gasp!...MERIT!
 And of course the evil man wants them to contribute a little more towards their retirement and healthcare.
This bill wouldnt affect private sector unions in the slightest.

I may be getting some of the elements of the Wisconsin bill and Ohio's mixed up. I hear so much about both its hard to keep them striaght.

[Buckskin]

Yep, if you are a conserative you will no longer be FORCED to pay your dues and have the union fill the pockets of the liberals...

How dare they....  Merit pay, come on Hitler!!!   

That Hilter comparison of Walker to Hilter cracks me up....  Hitler a guy who got his country so in debt that it pushed them into a WW compared to a guy who is trying to balance his states budget...

[mirage1988]

The way I understand it is that they will still be able to bargain for wages but not for pension or healthcare benefits. It was written that way to prevent another temper tantrum when the next contract is up. That is why the AP keeps screaming about "stripping most collective bargaining rights".

[burntmuch]

The Gov of Michigan is coming at the police & fire unions.. Now to be honest I dont know any of the issues with the teachers. But as far as our Fire fighter union, Weve already taken a beating. Pay freezes for the last 3 years, Then a pretty substantial pay cut. Right around 15 -20 % Now we,re looking at another pretty big paycut.. As far as health benefits. I have descent insurance, I dont pay into. But We gave up something to get that. I understand us evil unions have to give up some. We already have. But without collective bargaining whatever city or township you work for will be able to take whatever they want. Still proud to be a Union Firefighter/Paramedic. . We,ve lost man power as well

[Buckskin]

And when you get done with all that stuff TM7 mention you get things like this:

Union in Racine county (Wisconsin)  is filing a grievance with the city because during our last blizzard most of the city workers were allowed to stay home and got a paid day off.  The snowplowers are filing a grievance because the had to come in and didn't get their day off!  And they are also filing a grievance because there was so much snow the city had to hire private plows to keep up, thereby cutting into the union workers overtime!!! 

That is just a snapshot of the junk that unions pull everyday and why Walker wants to give municipalities the power to actually make decisions without the union mucking things up...  Good riddance.

'Collective bargaining' is process in which both parties (actually a state workers and state workers, nobody on the behalf of the tax payer) of a contract meet and establish the conditons of the contract to include conditons of work, safety, benefits, pay, probations (tenure), required skill levels (=pay scale where everyone is of same value no matter work ethic or practice), time of work (don't forget coffee breaks and can't work over 8 hrs), other pay (benefits on top of benefits), violations of contract from either party (meaning the ones who pay the bills), and all the various details (illegal strikes) of working for the Corp. The State of Wisconsin is a corporation (which would have gone under if it were a public corp, due to the union greed).

[jimster]

The Gov of Michigan is coming at the police & fire unions.. Now to be honest I dont know any of the issues with the teachers. But as far as our Fire fighter union, Weve already taken a beating. Pay freezes for the last 3 years, Then a pretty substantial pay cut. Right around 15 -20 % Now we,re looking at another pretty big paycut.. As far as health benefits. I have descent insurance, I dont pay into. But We gave up something to get that. I understand us evil unions have to give up some. We already have. But without collective bargaining whatever city or township you work for will be able to take whatever they want. Still proud to be a Union Firefighter/Paramedic. . We,ve lost man power as well

I am also from Michigan, I have a lot of respect for what you do.  Pehaps if you were to tell your union you could use the money they were sending to a political party you would gain a lot of support from both sides.  It would be neat to see us all ban together to stop corruption,
your union gives the money to you instead dumping it into elections, it would send a great message.  I don't know how to explain to you good folks that protect us that my money going to elect people makes me feel less free, and I'm sure you feel the same way about how this works, you just can't stop it either. You need that money your union is using for elections, and the private sector is plum broke, no more tax money.

The stim package was a prime example of union employees getting it all, private sector nothing, if your from Michigan you know the money went to the unions here, they stuck a bunch of ugly poles in the middle of the express ways (infrastructure), made some signs bragging about getting the money, could not spend it fast enough, kept some teachers, police and fireman on the payrolls for another year, but no budgeting, they would worry about that next year. Now it's next year. 

As much as I respect all you do, your union is hurting both of us with taking money out of your check, and mine (I am not even a member!) and sending it to a political party so they can get you more of my money.  Been going on for years.

That ain't right. 

[burntmuch]

jimster I agree with all that you said. Ive been against Us being political since I started.

[jimster]

If the unions can do what they want with the money they pull out of employee paychecks, then I guess it should not be mandatory, employees should be able to say no to their money going to a political party, or not have it taken from them. 

union member's donations

I doubt many people working for the unions consider that mandatory dues are donations. 

All in all it sounds to me like the unions are just another form of government, and corrupt at that.  They have hurt the very people they say they stand for. 

[Buckskin]

If the unions can do what they want with the money they pull out of employee paychecks, then I guess it should not be mandatory, employees should be able to say no to their money going to a political party, or not have it taken from them. 

union member's donations

I doubt many people working for the unions consider that mandatory dues are donations. 

All in all it sounds to me like the unions are just another form of government, and corrupt at that.  They have hurt the very people they say they stand for.

any hinderance to their operation would be unlawful or uncontitutional just as it would be for any other incorporated entity.



..TM7
.

We'll see...  By hinderance do you mean voluntary membership, because that is where it is headed and my guess is that most forced members of today would rather keep their dues in their pockets...

[jimster]

We'll see...  By hinderance do you mean voluntary membership, because that is where it is headed and my guess is that most forced members of today would rather keep their dues in their pockets...

Obviously, they want more of their own money in their pockets instead of going to a political party, just ask them.
So what it boils down to, the union is like another government, it takes money out of people's paychecks, spends it to get people elected, nobody thinks it's a good idea, but everyone is just stuck with it because...I guess just because.  LOL!!

Well, I guess I'm stuck with beating back the unions if at all possible, and I'm sure some people that work for them also would like a choice on keeping that money in their checks as well.  If I get this right...the unions are responsible for hurting their own people with politics and corruption, the dems are responsible for corrupting the very willing unions...and we all live happily ever after in a bargaining frame of mind, with nothing to bargin for anymore...all per the constitution and all for the hard working people of America.   

Thanks God for the unions and the democrats I guess.

[Lost Farmboy]

I thought collective bargaining might be a Borg assimilation program.    Resistance is futile.  Or was that a democrat assimilation program?

[billy_56081]

And TM who pays the bills at this "unbiased" sharedprosperity.org link you supplied?

[Cabin4]

Ending collective barganing means an end to unfair Union pay negotiation with corrupt politicians who take pay-offs from the same Unions.......

In other words, its means at least a partical end to an immoral, corrupt and unethical practice of "over leverage" to one party in the process over the tax payers.

The Tax Payers win and the corrupt politicians and unions lose some ability to be corrupt.

[Buckskin]

I know lots of tradesmen who hate their union and their sheep mentality of which pay scale is based on years worked not work worked.  But if you want to work in a trade, you are in a union....  I know plenty of teachers who feel the same way, my sister-in-law included who has the commonsense that some of you are greatly lacking....

[ironglow]

  Yes, if union members want their union to support partisan politics with their dues, rather that put it into a retirement plan that's OK, but they should know ahead of time that the taxpayers will not be paying the retirement plan for them..while members who would rather their dues be placed in their own retirement account, should have that choice also.

  It should only be right that anyone whose campaign got funds from the union, should recuse himself from voting upon any issues involving that union.
  ...And before you say it, anyone receiving campaign money from Corp X ..should recuse himself from voting for/against Corp X.

[carbineman]

If I understand this correctly, the State also has to collect union dues from the public union employee and forward them to the union. What kind of racket is that? And yet this adds another layer of beauracracy that we the taxpayers have to pay for.

Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but why don't the union workers take care of this themselves? Send in your own freaking union dues. Or do you already do this?  Are these union dues deducted from before or after tax dollars are paid?

Jeez, the more you look at this the more corrupt the system is. Remember what Ricky Ricardo said, "Lucy you have some splaining to do."

Seriously, If you really look at this system completely, it appears unfathomable, unfixable and should be flushed down the privy and we start over. That's the view from here.

[Cabin4]

Yes that is correct Carbineman. The process of collective bargaining for government workers is corrupt, immoral and unethical. But that’s what happens when you take politicians in power and put them in a room to negotiate with the unions. The very unions that line those politicians pockets. Those union dues are forced on the workers and given to the union thug leadership so they can hand it to the politicians. In the private sector, we would call this a conflict of interest. In state capitols, the union thugs and receiving politicians call this fair.

[ironglow]

Carbineman, cabin4..

    It was discovered long ago that if the state or some fee collecting agency demands a large,lump sum payment, they will experience a much greater reaction than if they kill their victim with "the death of a thousand cuts"..thus, payroll deduction and other hidden taxes, such as the Al Gore tax on your phone bill.
      A move was made some time ago, to stop witholding tax and just make each pay the tax in a lump sum.....congress wouldn't listen to that.  If each wage earner were told that he must render a $2,000, $7,000 or $57,000 check in April, you can be sure taxpayers would watch more closely where their taxes were being spent.
   Here in the blue state of New York (where everyone is in a "blue" mood over taxes and fees) an accounting agency has concluded that considering all taxes..state, local, sales etc..the average worker works into the first week of July before he stops earning for taxes and starts earning for himself.  Perhaps if that were simply collected in one lump.. (e.g., no pay until July 7), people would probably be better watchdogs of such funds.

[ironglow]

  Unions are cutting their own throats.  Here we see an example of how "reasonable" they really are...
   http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/20110305_heco_strike_1300_workers_walk_off_the_job_amid_outages.html

        First, they make an unreasonable demand..while states are going broke, these greed merchants demand that they be allowed to retire at 60 instead of 62  ...with full benefits !
  When the state resists, the union waits until an emergency arises, then disregarding public safety, they desert the people at a time when they are most needed..   
     As Democrats like to say;   " never fail to take advantage of a good crisis"!

   Who here believes that this is an honorable tactic ?  Is it any surprise that people are getting weary of union "demands" ?

  I honestly believe that many, many people are ready to say, " Let's dump these greedy leeches..and the Boss Hoggs who lead them" !

[Cabin4]

  Unions are cutting their own throats.  Here we see an example of how "reasonable" they really are...
   http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/20110305_heco_strike_1300_workers_walk_off_the_job_amid_outages.html

        First, they make an unreasonable demand..while states are going broke, these greed merchants demand that they be allowed to retire at 60 instead of 62  ...with full benefits !
  When the state resists, the union waits until an emergency arises, then deserts the people..   As Democrats like to say;
  " never fail to take advantage of a good crisis".

   Who here believes that this is an honorable tactic ?  Is it any surprise that people are getting weary of union "demands" ?

  I honestly believe that many, many people are ready to say, " Let's dump these greedy leeches..and the Boss Hoggs who lead them" !

.
More stigmanati spin and attack rhetoric and polemics.

Dues to unions are after tax payroll deductions..payroll departments easily handle this admin.

If I was a union worker in Wisconsin, there is no way I would want to turn over my HC and retiremnet benefits to control by a Walker/Koch governmnet of elite special interests after seeing how these types have gutted workers in the private sector who have degraded HC and pay a fortune for it, and who just have lousey IRA and 401(k),,,now pretty much devalued and skimmed.

...TM7
.

Imagine that. Walker has been gov for 2 months, yet he has managed to somehow retroactively gut the pay, pensions and HC for Wisconsin workers even know, no bill has passed. Yet, Jim Doyle, the former Gov for 8 years and the democrat controlled legislature of that same time, had nothing to do with anything. Even President Obama, has nothing to do with anything thats hurting our country. It’s all Walker. The guy must be a magician who can control time like in the movie Back to the Future.

[magooch]

As I have stated before, I was a member of a labor union for more than 37 years.  During those years, I was a very active member and in fact held a few positions in the local.  I assure everyone that I never voted for a Dumycrat in my life and I never will.  And I was not alone; at least 40% of our members were conservative.  There were times when the conservative members had control of our local and it just drove the Dumycrats crazy.  We were able to squelch many of the Dumycrat's efforts to extract money for their pet political efforts, but not all of them.

One of the problems with the way that union dues are handled is that a few members at any given union meeting can vote to give a contribution to this, or that political candidate.  The average union meeting is not widely attended, so when the Dumycrats wanted to stack a meeting, it wasn't difficult.  But there is a provision and I think it is federal, that if a union member does not agree with political donations, he/she can request a rebate from the union on that portion of their dues that was used for politcal contributions.  I got those rebates every year.  However, not many members would bother with it, because it usually didn't amount to more than a few bucks.  I did it out of principle.

This issue could easily be solved with a law that would not allow politcal donations to come from dues, but only from in person donations.  We often passed the hat to raise money for various causes.  That is the way it should be done with all organizations and even with business.  I realize that will probably never happen, because of the Supreme Court ruling about donations from corporations and other business entities as being "free speech."

The problem with public sector unions being able to finance the campaigns of those who will be on the management side of negotiations isn't that hard to understand.  I can't believe the media is having such a hard time informing the public of this distorted process.  Well, actually yes I can; it's the lame stream media propagandizing, rather than informing.

[carbineman]

TM7 wrote, <<Dues to unions are after tax payroll deductions..payroll departments easily handle this admin.>>> End of quoted text.

You finally answered a question, looks like you are making progress in our discussion.


TM7 wrote<<<If I was a union worker in Wisconsin, there is no way I would want to turn over my HC and retiremnet benefits to control by a Walker/Koch governmnet of elite special interests after seeing how these types have gutted workers in the private sector who have degraded HC and pay a fortune for it, and who just have lousey IRA and 401(k),,,now pretty much devalued and skimmed.>>>End of quoted text


Right now TM, as a Walker voter, I am patiently waiting for my secret decoder ring that I'll use to decode the encrytption in all the Walker talking points, so Scott, myself and other Tea Party Storm Troopers can continue to defund the government union employee treasure chest, as planned by Scott when he was a youngster growing up following Joe McCarthy here in Cheeseville.

[Cabin4]

Its all typical Union thuggery tactics.
1. Claim the guy proposing the solution is evil at heart.
2. Blame him for all all historical problems even if he was not in a position to do so
3. Claim there are boat loads of cash stored in secret warehouses in order to create the illusion that there are no financial problems.
4. Protect the status quo on union dues and the obvious conflict of interest at all costs.
5. Claim the unions are here to save all the people, not just the union
6. Claim union workers are under paid and have lower benefits than the typical worker in the private sector.
All a lie and all an illusion.
 

[billy_56081]

Once again it goes back to the open eyes of folks who have worked around union and non union shops. I have seen first hand how much lower the quality of labor and productivity is in union shops. Unions are a huge cause in infation, union labor = more pay for less work.

[billy_56081]

Old TM if you only knew the hours I put in. I do have a bit of travel time between jobs. How is your 4000 watt death ray working?

[Cabin4]

Unions represent the workers. Politicians are suppose to represent the tax payer. How about some balance for once. Unions have too much power and there is no balance. Proof, look at thier salaries, benefits and pensions compared to non-union equvilants. Look at the condition of the state budget deficit. Its time the union and thier workers gave it so the tax payers can have some satisfaction in the process.

[billy_56081]

You are correct cabin and when the poiticians are boughtand paid for by the unions, there is no one there to represent the taxpayer. That is how we got where we are.

[Buckskin]

Collective bargaining = the soon to be old way of raping the tax payer...  Now the slackers will have to prove their worth just like the real working people of America.

Public unions will be casterated and won't be able to buy donkeys anymore.... How sad.