CR 45LC any one shooting black powder loads?

[diddlyv]

Have been to the range a couple of times with my CR 45 LC.  It shot really well with the 45 Winchester Cowboy ammo

Tried it today with black powder.  It was OK at 50.  Moved the target out to 100 and I could not put consecutive shots less than 12 inches a part and some went from being a foot High and to the Left to being a foot low and to the right.  Was shooting 35 grains of FFg Sheutzen.  Was using black Dog black powder bullets

Next go around will work with 20 - 35 grains of FFFg.

[mechanic]

Just remember to use a case full or use a filler.  That air gap will get you.

Ben

[keith44]

 

STOP!!!

Successful black powder cartridge shooting has more to do with how the round is assembled, and proper lubrication, with very soft lead bullets.  Cast bullet alloys of 1:30 or 1:40 tin lead are best (top BPCR shooters use one of these depending on the preference of the individual gun).  3F powder is too generic a term.  KiK, Goex, Swiss, and others I do not recall at the moment all have different "energy" levels due to slightly different makeup of the same ingredients, the wood that the charcoal is made from even has a bearing on how the powder performs.  Powder trickled slowly into the case gives more consistant results than just dumping a case full in.  A wad and/or grease cookie under the bullet will tighten group sizes.  Use only a lube intended for black powder, both on the bullet and as a grease cookie, use another wad to keep the grease cookie from migrating into the powder.  Strictly for consistency use magnum primers, these light more of the powder and cause a higher pressure and more heat to help burn off and expell more of what will not burn.

You can have alot of fun with black, infact I shoot more black powder and old recipies for black and smokeless duplex loads than smokeless powders   Above all the case must be so full that the powder and wad and grease cookie are compressed, to prevent any air gaps which will destroy a gun much stronger than these Handi's we all like so much.

Please if you are going to go black, research this fun field carefully.  A couple books will help, One of my favorites is "loading the black powder cartridge rifle, by Mike Venturino.  It will cover the basics and saftey concerns without being a total snooze.

[bikerbeans]

did,

Good primer for getting into BPCRs.

BB

[quickdtoo]

Here's a great article from our FAQs on shooting BP in an H&R 45-70.

Tim

http://www.castbullet.com/shooting/1871.htm

[gcrank1]

In my experience (not inconsiderable) the biggest problem in getting cast bullet accuracy, regardless of the propellant used, is using a bullet that does not fit the throat.
In the old days a lot of cartridges used the pure soft lead bullet to fit the miriad of bore/groove dimensions used by gun manufacturers. With the boot of the full black powder charge that bullet would quickly 'bump-up' and seal off the accuracy killing gas cutting of the bullet base.
Take one of your fully fire-formed cases from that test and put one of those bullets into the case mouth. If it is a drop in fit, it is just plain too small a diameter.

[keith44]

 
gcrank is correct, but with black powder you also must use a soft lube, and lots of it to keep the fouling soft.  If you can match the groove diameter with the bullet diameter you can use a harder alloy with black powder.  The old British BP Express rifles usually shoot very well with bullets cast of Linotype, and Lyman number 2 alloy.  But the guns were built and bored and rifled to shoot one very specific load, especially the old doubles.

[rockshooter]

Not exactly BP, but I use a slightly compressed case full of 777 behind a soft-cast 454190 sized to .454. I use Tamarack 50/50 as a lube. Accuracy is on the order of 2" at 70 yards with a Williams receiver rear and Lyman globe front. I find I need to clean the chamber about every dozen rounds to chamber easily. This is  fun for plinking.
Loren

[sabbatus]

the whole have to use magnum primers thing is not necessarily true.  even though many books say that they are needed there are many that say just the opposite.   one of my best 45-70 loads uses a standard primer with a single layer of news paper covering the primer before the powder.    this helps to cool off the primer some and not move the bullet into the barrel before the powder completely ignites.(again this is just a different school of thought)  in the glory days of b.p. loads there were no magnum primers, and those guys shot amazing groups at sometimes very long ranges.  I am not necessarily recommending that you load this way,  definitely do your research, and try the different ways to reach the intended goal.   what works in one rifle  doesnt always work in another. 

 Welcome to the world of the black powder cartridge, it is fun and rewarding to hear the different sound of the report and see that big smoke cloud when the hammer falls

[keith44]

If you ask the top competitors in 1,000 yrd BP shoots most will tell you that they shoot 45-70's, with some granulation Swiss, and magnum primers, for group size.  BP does not need even standard rifle primer to ignite, and fire accurately, it's just what works best for them.  As proof of how easy it is to ignite real black compared to any modern substitute, try to light a small quantity of each with a spark from a flint striker like used to light a torch.  Be very careful with the real black powder .

Hodgen does not reccomend the use of 777 in a cartridge, be very careful with that as well.  (at least that's the last I heard)

[quickdtoo]

Hodgdon has had T7 data for cartridges including the 45-70 for several years, I've shot it in my 45-120 BC. 

Tim

http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/muzzleloading_manual_2008.pdf?CHECKBOX_1=on

[bikerbeans]

Hodgen does not reccomend the use of 777 in a cartridge, be very careful with that as well.  (at least that's the last I heard)

keith,

Hodgdon does not reccommend the use of 777 Pellets in cartridges and their load data is for 777 - FFg, not FFFg.  I researched the 777 pellets and the non-reccomendation is that the pellets are more energetic than pyrodex pellets or Holy Black and generate enough pressure to maybe cause an issue with antique BPs or modern BP only guns.  My own personal experience with 777 pellets & loose (FFFg) in a modern (smokeless) 45/70 has shown no indications of overpressure and the velocities developed by 777(pellets or loose) in the 45-70 are at trapdoor levels.

BB

[keith44]

Ok I stand corrected, it has been a while since I looked beyond loose powder (pyrodex, and plain ole black)

Thanks for posting current info.

Keith

[bikerbeans]

Ok I stand corrected, it has been a while since I looked beyond loose powder (pyrodex, and plain ole black)

Thanks for posting current info.

Keith

Keith,

Only reason I know this is my friends keep giving me their unwanted pellets & loose powder.  Going to try a substitute BP 444M shortly.

BB

[diddlyv]

Was using the lyman BP powder measure with the lyman drop tube to fill the cases.  Does the powder measure drop the powder too fast?  Do I need to detach the drop tube figure out a mount and then slowly pour the powder into the drop tube using my scale pan or other small container?

One of the things mentioned in the BP Primer attached above was a caution against compressing power with the bullet to be shot (deformation issues).  I did compress the powder with the bullets loaded guess that might be the issue.  There was quite a bit of compression as well with the 35 grain charge.  My initial plan was starting at the 20 grain level, fill the case to get 1/16 or 1/8 inch compression with walnut media if necessary until the powder charge alone was sufficient to obtain that range of compression. 

Re lubrication  Think the Black Dawg bullets come with the proper BP lube.  I really do not want to get into the whole casting, sizing and lubing thing.  All ready have enough toys or so thinks she who must be obeyed.

I may get some bees wax and use some of the online recipes to make lube cookies to seat under the bullets.  Will necessitate lighter than 35 grain loads to fit the cookie.

The only BP I have is Shuetzen FFg and FFFg.  For the 45 Colt FFFg may be a better choice and save the FFg for 45/70 and shotgun loads.

I have ordered one of Venturinos books and may order the other one suggested above.

[keith44]

diddlyv,
I'd try about 25 gr of the 3F, goahead and use the Lyman drop tube, then try to settle the powder, by tapping or touching the case to a vibratory case cleaner (not a tumbler).  Commercial cast bullets work great they just get pricey if you're shooting a bunch.  Look for SPG lube or the Rooster lab black powder formula (I forget the color or name).  For just playin' around a dab of crisco can be tried for the grease cookie (works well in one of my muzzle loading rifles, don't ask, yes this one needs that kind of treatment).  That's the basics, every gun is different, and responds differently, some like a softer bullet lots of lube and a good hard bump from the powder, some like harder bullets and a softer bump from the powder.  The one thing they all need is enough lube to keep the fouling soft all the way to the muzzle, without using so much that the excess is slung off in flight.  Part of the fun with black is learning what each gun needs/wants.

[keith44]

Bikerbeans,

I've had some success with Pyrodex Select in .44 Mag, 800 fps with a 240 gr laser cast RNFP, same bullet also driven by 3031 / 3F duplex for over 1,800 fps out of the Handi.  Poor load for handgun though, too dirty, too much flash from cylinder gap.  Bp was used as a primer charge to give the primer  a kick to help light off the 3031. 

Let me know about the .444 Marlin, your opinion of it over all.  I've thought about getting one but just never have.