Deer management conundrum?

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

I'm sure Wisconsin isn't the only state that has this problem.

Many folks seem to think the Wisconsin DNR is issuing too many antlerless permits.  Every year the DNR estimates what the herd is and sets the quotas for various management units.

Yet, year after year, hunters grouse about the DNR botching up the management.  Miraculously, in spite of the DNR's "incompetence", Wisconsin hunters have managed to sustain ~300,000 deer killed per year for two decades.  Over the course of those two decades the DNR's population estimates have been around 1.2 to 1.5 million.

300k is a significant portion of the total population.  If the DNR's estimates are too high then hunters are killing better than 25% of the herd every year.  Would someone care to explain where all these dead deer come from year, after year, after year?  If the DNR is incompetent the Whitetail should have been extirpated years ago.

However, that being said, there are still problems.  Over many discussions, it appears that the problems lie in access to private land, and overcrowding of public land.  


Within a given management unit, the DNR can't control who hunts where.  The deer learn where the low pressure private land is and flock to that during the season.  This keeps the population high in that particular unit causing the DNR to issue liberal antlerless permits.  But the hunter who can only afford to hunt public land in that unit may have 5 antlerless tags but is lucky to see a fawn.  Of course he wonders what the heck the DNR was thinking by issuing all these antlerless tags.

I thought I'd open the discussion to possible solutions.  

The only thing I can think of for starters is to make the private landowners pay for the local crop damage.  Currently crop damage reimbursement comes from hunting license fees.  This no longer seems to be a just set-up.

It's not the hunters who are sustaining the deer population.  It's the landowners (some of whom may be hunters).  If a land owner wishes to have lots of bambis on his property - fine.  But that is going to interfere with his neighbor who is trying to farm the land.  Perhaps the land owner who offers deer safe-haven should pay for this privilege?

Then perhaps the landowners would realize that their actions (or better described as "inactions") affect their neighbors.  Maybe hunters would be a welcome visitor?

[WD45]

Well Black Jaque,
In my area there are a lot of farmers that will not allow hunting any longer due to damage incured by hunters that have no respect for the land owner or his property. This ranges from killed animals to  fence damage and animals roaming all over the place that must be rounded up and which you dont usually find out until you are ready for bed and it is raining or a hacked off neighbor calls complaining about your cow that is eating their new landscaping that they just paid big bucks for. This also includes abuse of how many people a person is alowed to bring with them and the attitude of the people they bring. I have seen this 1st hand and have lost more than 1 place to hunt because of some idiot and the land owner finally has had enough and cuts everyone off because he is tired of dealing with it.
Maybe it is not that way where you live. I hope not but as the saying goes.. One bad apple will spoil the bushel. It seems one or two bad experiences for a land owner and  the rest of the bushel is automaticaly spoiled

[SAMinWI]

Black Jaque, I live near Madison, but hunted opening weekend very near Clam Lake on public ground.  Out of 6 people, only 3 deer were seen.  I also hunt neer Sauk City in the CWD management zone.  Hunted 4 different days and didn't see a deer, yet when leaving after hunting, saw a minimun of 50 on other private lands within 5 miles.   I agree with you that the deer learn very quickly where they are safe, and also about the property abuse by a few.   Is very hard to obtain permission to hunt anymore.....
Yours in shooting
Sam Gascho

[jhm]

WD45 has said it right, the days of letting people freely roam you land to hunt is almost over, and the landowner isnt to blame.    JIM

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

That's a good point.

I have heard horror stories like that from landowners.

Obviously the truth is that not all hunters are that bad.  Is there something that the good hunters could do to help assuage the concerns (and legitimate at that) of the landowners?

It almost seems that leaving the landowner with name, address, phone number would help.  That way the landowner has a way of contacting said hunter if the landowner finds problems.

Maybe a hunter could print up some "business cards" or calling cards as they use to be called that has this info on it?

I fear that if this issue doesn't get resolved, hunting will go the way it has in Europe.  It is a bit difficult to introduce a youngster to hunting under the current circumstances.

It may be true that one bad apple can spoil a bushel - but you have to let that happen.  I don't think we should.

[Gregory]

Over the course of those two decades the DNR's population estimates have been around 1.2 to 1.5 million.

300k is a significant portion of the total population.  If the DNR's estimates are too high then hunters are killing better than 25% of the herd every year.  Would someone care to explain where all these dead deer come from year, after year, after year?  

Let's assume the total deer population is 1.0 million animals just to use round numbers, that would mean 500,000 animals are female assuming a 1:1 buck to doe ratio.  Let's say 75% of the does breed succesfully, discounting 25% for fawn motality and unbred does.
Assuming only one fawn born per doe, that puts 75% x 500,000=
375,000 fawns born every year.
That where they are coming from!
My number is probably low because the buck:doe ratio is most likely  lower than 1:1 and many does drop two fawns per year.

[crawfish]

Straight from the horse's mouth if you will. I am a large land owner, 5300 acres. Last winter/spring I had it all put behind high fence, cost almost $350K dollars to do it. The reason for this drastic action on my part were many to name a few, trespassers, poachers, illegal dumpers, illegal woodcutters and “friends” 4 times removed. The last group are those who caused me to stop giving permission to hunt or fish my land. I give BJJ permission to fish, he brings a friend three weeks later I find a guy fishing one of my ponds he is not the friend of BJJ but a friend of a friend of the friend of BJJ. The other big problem was I give BJJ permission to hunt quail the weekend of November 13 but BJJ has in his mind that the permission extends for all game for the rest of his natural life with out ever having to ask again and is extended to whom ever he wishes to bring along which results in friends 4 times removed. I stopped giving permission years before I fenced the place. Add to all this the fact that we live in a time when many people see any chance to sue as their road to “Easy Street” it becomes a question as to how much of his neck a land owner wants to expose to that kind of danger. So I no longer have those problems to deal with. Just my 2 cents in the pot.

[rickyp]

crawfish. I can relate to your troubles. but there alot of hunters that will do as you ask and not only do what you ask they watch out for the farm.
I personally am like: if the land owner says me and 1 guest (I always ask for a guest  so I am not hunting alone) that is all that I bring. If I see him doing something he needs help with I will stop and we will help him with-in reason. but when the farmer lumps all hunters together it doesn't matter how good a person I am.

The trouble in MD is that most of the land is snatched up bu "hunt clubs" and are willing to pay very big bucks to hunt. the average hunter Can not afford the price the "hunt clubs"
are giving and you have to be the right kind of person to join the club.
so people like me are loosing every way

[rconnely]

is that in WI many landowners are asigning their land under the Forest Crop Law. This allows them to pay a lot less in taxes in return, the land is to be accessable to public hunting and slight forest cropping.  This land however is not listed as Public Hunting on most maps.  If you get ahold of  a platte map of the area you want to hunt and contact the DNR you can mark all of these locations.  Some landowners that are under this Act like to pretend they won't let you hunt because it's private.  Show them the map and they will not be able to do anything about it.  It's the price they pay to save them a buck. Many others know and let you in easily. My suggestion is to let them know who you are and do the true sporting thing and respect their land.  They can always take their land out of hte Act next year.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Crawfish,

I realize you were probably just taking the simple route to make a point, however in the future please try to resist the temptation to use someone's name or initials as the antagonistic character in your examples.

It's very insulting to say the least.  :evil:

Now, on to the point.  Did you have that problem with EVERY person you ever gave permission to?  My hunch is you did not.  Not everyone is as sinister as that BJJ fellow :wink:

Consider your actions.  Some people (I won't even pretend it's "a few") behaved poorly.  But I will guess that some people behaved properly.  So you may in effect be punishing those hunters who conducted themselves well.  

Sometimes it could be a communication malfunction.  It's possible that the hunter could ask permission to hunt, thinking it's for the entire fall, while the landowner is thinking it's for one day.   This kind of situation (by itself) is a silly reason to spend $350K on fencing, when a few extra polite words would resolve the problem.  

From the hunters perspective, we don't really know if we are making a pest of ourselves if we call every Friday night.  In which case we run the risk of annoying the landowner.  Sometimes the landowners are difficult to contact.  Some landowners are real laid back about this, and asking once is good enough.  Others interpret the conversation more narrowly.  

Typically, as a polite hunter, one should discuss this matter clearly from the get-go.  "Can I hunt your land this weekend?"  "How about the rest of the fall?  May I bring a friend?"   Get everything out in the open.  Let the landowner set the rules.  

Can you recommend anything else Crawfish?

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Rconnely, I'm aware of the Forest Crop land in Wisconsin.  That works in areas farther north.  But in the southern part of the state there's very little FCL acreage.  Also, for a small pettence, the landowner can pay a wee bit more and get the benefit of posting the land.  I suspect a number of people go this route.

[jhm]

Until you own a piece of land big enough to have people ask permission its hard to understand how much can go wrong with just letting people hunt or fish on it, like grawfish I own a few acres and like I stated before once you start allowing it to be hunted by a few it is a never ending job of cleaning, fixing, and catching of you live stock that goes on and on the only salution sometimes as drastic as it may seem is to stop all outside hunting and fishing, and to take legal action against anyone violating the traspass laws period, yes its not ALL the hunters but the point that a few make to the landowner outweighs the others who do respect his wishes, you fellows who hunt the state land and complain aboput the slob hunters you encounter while hunting should understand the landowners plight when he is the one who has to eat the expence of the damage out of his pocket, the same hunter who thinks he owns a particular stand area on public land is the same hunter who will stand in your driveway and ask fopr permission and then if they dont have a succesful day will do some damage out of frustration, or if they do have a successful day go back to the workplace and tell everyone they run into about it and where to go, so think about the landowner for awhile, remember we hunted state land at one time and just made a decision that we wanted something better for ourselfs and our family members so we made the decision to do without somethings early in our life to be able to have a place to hunt.  And again this isnt against the 99% of the hunters who do the right thing it is against the 99% of the hunters who know some of the slob hunters and somehow tolerate their abuse of the land and YOUR hunting rights.    JIM

[rickyp]

the best thing a hunter and land owner can do is put everything in wighting. so there is no misunderstanding and state that the hunter is responsible for all damages caused by him or his "friends"  and that the land owner is not libel for any injuries that may happen to the hunters while on his/her land.

A few weeks ago I was working on an accident scene in front of a very nice farm after it was all over and we where waiting for the accident reconstruction team from the state police the farm owner came down to see what was going on. He and i got to talking and found out he use to hunt but now leases the farm out to a hunt club. then I found out that the lease was just for deer hunting and that the farm had a lot of troubles with groundhogs so much infarct that he was paying the farm hands $25 for each groundhog killed. I told him that i was looking for a place to hunt groundhogs during the summer and he made me the same offer of $25 for each one i kill. I gave him a counter offer of written permission slip and no charge for the groundhogs. this went a long way with him and now in the spring I have to come back and get the slip and be shown where I can hunt. by doing it this way the farmer will get to know me and how I am and hopefully when he is tired of the hunt clubs BS I can get permission for deer.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Wow Jim.  That's too bad things got that bad.

Now, getting towards the topic.   If this property was in Wisconsin, and the owner didn't hunt it very much, the property would become a safe-haven for deer.  

The very fact that the owner doesn't allow enough hunting pressure on the land will affect the neighbors.

So would the land owners be willing to chip in for the crop damage that is caused by the excessive deer population they are contributing to?

[WD45]

Black Jaque,
You are right about the safe haven for deer on unhunted properties. No doubt about it.  after not seeing a deer for days in a row on land that doesnt really see much hunting pressure though, I gotta wonder where they all went .... They gotta be somewhere. Deer under a lot of pressure will also go almost nocturnal. some places where I have stopped seeing deer in daylight hours I could always see fresh sign where they had been there sometime in the night. Do they go into these safe havens during daylight hours ? Idont know. I know I have walked and glassed  over 2 or 3 hundred acres and have not seen or even jumped a deer and this is not a place with high hunting pressure. some days I have seen more deer driving to and from where I hunt than while hunting  :roll:   It does make one wonder..

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

There are a few possibilities.

One is you could be in an area where the goal is to have few deer.  And they're just now getting it to where they want it.

Another, is the possibility that population estimates were off.  This has happened before, and the DNR has admitted to it.  If so, you can expect fewer antlerless permits the next year or so while the population rebounds.  Assuming mild winters - rebound will occur rapidly.

And I suppose there's a myriad of other possibilities.  Some sort of conspiracy (DNR, Farmers, Auto Insurance) is the most remote of those possibilities if you want my opinion.

[WD45]

Actually the Does are getting so thick in my area that they have went to allowing an unlimited amount of does to be killed. There has even been talk of having to fill a doe tag prior to being allowed to kill a buck to try and curb the problem. Part of that problem being the amount of trophy hunters verses meat hunters that would never kill a doe unless they had to.
 Have you seen an increase in the urban deer population ? Deer are everywhere in the urban areas here. City people love watching Bambi until he eats the prize rose bushes or totals the new beamer  :shock: