Double standards

[BUGEYE]

After a conversation with a guy in walmarts sporting goods, I am gonna rant just a little and maybe get some kind of answer.
when the subject of slaves comes up, all southerners get their dander up and say they've never owned one and didn't want one and had never mistreated any black, etc.
now, I was born in 1943, long after the war was over, but southerners still blame me for it because I'm from Illinois.  when I'm with a group of people and these kind of conversations up, I have to keep my mouth shut to avoid accusations.
I really didn't start the war.

[williamlayton]

I am a Southerner of many generations before the civil war.
Most Southerners will blame anyone and any reason except taking responsibility.
Doesn't make them bad---it is learned attitude. Those of us who have moved on don't seem to have any of these problems.
Blessings

[DanChamberlain]

I have two families.  Some owned slaves.  Some fought for the Union.  Didn't stop'em from getting together eventually and having kids.
The war between the states simply never comes up in discussion.

Dan

[BUGEYE]

the civil war interests me and I like to read about it.  but, I'm also interested in both world wars.
I just wish we could bury the hatchet and discuss the battles etc. without pointing fingers.

[williamlayton]

++++1
Blessings

[Tancred]

I think some Southerners today get more wound-up in the war than many did at the time. For a lot of Southerners it was over and done once the last army surrendered—time to move on. Some were over it before the war was even done. My GGGF fought in the 50th Tenn., was captured at Ft. Donelson and spent 6 months as a POW in Chicago. While there, the Confederate government passed a conscription act that forced the one-year enlistments to stay in the army for three years or until the finish. Once my ancestor was exchanged, his one-year enlistment was nearly up and he didn't waste much time sticking around. In his regiment many men left in groups. Those men prided their independence above all else. The perception that the North was trying to impose its will on the South was what most motivated these men, slavery was neither here nor there. In fact, many men knew slavery was wrong but continued to fight for their freedom. When their own government became the repressor they no longer found the cause compelling. Desertions were rampant after the Conscription Act. I was somewhat disappointed when I first found out my ancestor "fell out of rank" as his muster roll states. But in hindsight, I think he was the true spirit of Southern independence.

[pastorp]

Bigeye, if you feel people blame you for the civil war then either check your attitude about it or quit talking about it. If you act like a Yankee, you'll be treated like one. Change your attitude. I've read quite a few comments like this thread complaining about how mistreated you are by southern folks. That's not the way to change our perception about you.

Like some say jut move on. Discuss the aspects of the battles, etc that interest you and quit the pity party..

Regards,

[BUGEYE]

pistorp, the only way you can avoid the wrath of some rebs is lie about where you're from.
some can converse intelligently, some are just laying in wait for a yankee to come along.

[Ga.windbreak]

With respect, as pastorp so accuratly pointed out. By starting a thread complaining of no respect from some what kind of answer do you expect.

When one points out negative thinking it usually generates negative responses.

As pastorp stated; start a thread concerning battles and I, for one, would be more than happy to debate you on its merits, good and bad. I would go so far as to play the Northern general to your Southern General.

But to continue with the OP of this thread and sooner rather than later you will receive no response.

No one is your enemy here unless you make him so. Give respect and it shall be returned in kind.

[BUGEYE]

Ga.windbreak, pistorp called it a pity party. Huh,  I don't need pity, I'm from the winning side.
I walked up on an argument in walmarts sporting goods dept. and ranted about it.
as you said, pretty soon people will quit responding to this thread as they do ALL threads.
I hate to see folks like the guy in walmart act like such a butt.  Hey, it just hit me. maybe it's just rebel walmart customers that act that way.
over in another thread, a good southern gentleman (william layton) made what I thought was some really good points and of course you took him to task for his opinions.  so, since you seem to be the sensitive one here, I'll take an oath to never mention the war of southern rebellion again.
Happy now?

edited to add: the yankee in that argument is an old man that I've gotten to know. nice guy.

[Dee]

This is a trolling thread. It accomplished what it was baited for. Now the trapper has new fodder for his complaining. Let's blame it on someone else, how about walmart?

[BUGEYE]

This is a trolling thread. It accomplished what it was baited for. Now the trapper has new fodder for his complaining. Let's blame it on someone else, how about walmart?

Dee, I was poking at Gawindbreak with that.  I love walmart.  I'm at mcdonalds every morning (inside walmart) for coffee and sometimes a sausage,egg and grease biscuit.
I see people at this site ranting about something all the time, especially politics and religion.
I've seen you go off on catholics, so they are a sore point with you.
everyone has something they hate and I've never taken you to task over your hatred of catholics.
when I mention the thing that I took an oath never to mention again, it really ticks off some folks.
as WL says, blessings.

[Dee]

Actually BUGEYE, I have very few sore spots. I have opinions. Many folks like to accuse me of hating this or that, or certain folks. I can look in the mirror every morning and honestly say that I hate no one on this planet. There are folks I have no use for, but hate is not in the equation. Hating usually affects only the "hater", and seldom the "hatee".
Now! As far as potential for hating. I have no use for child molesters and feel they should be unceremoniously taken out and head shot with no real burial. I have no use for anyone that abuses children, old people, and women, and will not put up with it in my presence regardless of whom they are, and I have no use for a nasty mouth in front of women, and children, and won't put up with that either. I have no use for thieves, and folks that want somethin for nothin.
As far as catholics? I have friends that are catholic, and they know how I feel about their doctrine, but I ain't too impressed with several others either. Sore spot? Not hardly. The catholic doesn't affect me personally. But they sure do millions of others.
Now as far as Yankees? I don't care where your from. I care about how you act. As far as this discussion thing on the Civil War forums. I am only interested in the truth, not an opinion without actual facts. The war was fought, our side lost, but so did the other side. They fell for the lie, just like they did the Vietnam war, and the Iraq war.
But really BUGEYE. You got the response that you knew you'd get when you started this thread.

By the way. My dad's nick name was BUGEYE till the day he died. I have no idea why, because he wasn't.

[srussell]

you said you walked up on a argument and ranted about it sounds like you got into someones else s conversation

[BUGEYE]

you said you walked up on a argument and ranted about it sounds like you got into someones else s conversation

yes, I did get involved.  the old man was one of the regulars that haunt walmart.  I'm old but he is even older.  I guess you could say that we like to see each other and have coffee or look at the huntin & fishin stuff.  like dee said, he won't tolerate mistreatment of old folks. but when I go to the side of someone that I think is being mistreated by one of your middle aged rebels then y'all get your dander up.  except for a few here, and they know who they are, y'all are dealing in double standards.  there, my rant is over.

[squirrellluck]

Maybe if you told the whole story first and put it in perspective you would have gotten a little different response. Honestly looked like trolling in the op

[Casull]

Actually BUGEYE, I have very few sore spots. I have opinions. Many folks like to accuse me of hating this or that, or certain folks. I can look in the mirror every morning and honestly say that I hate no one on this planet. There are folks I have no use for, but hate is not in the equation. Hating usually affects only the "hater", and seldom the "hatee".
Now! As far as potential for hating. I have no use for child molesters and feel they should be unceremoniously taken out and head shot with no real burial. I have no use for anyone that abuses children, old people, and women, and will not put up with it in my presence regardless of whom they are, and I have no use for a nasty mouth in front of women, and children, and won't put up with that either. I have no use for thieves, and folks that want somethin for nothin.
As far as catholics? I have friends that are catholic, and they know how I feel about their doctrine, but I ain't too impressed with several others either. Sore spot? Not hardly. The catholic doesn't affect me personally. But they sure do millions of others.
Now as far as Yankees? I don't care where your from. I care about how you act. As far as this discussion thing on the Civil War forums. I am only interested in the truth, not an opinion without actual facts. The war was fought, our side lost, but so did the other side. They fell for the lie, just like they did the Vietnam war, and the Iraq war.
But really BUGEYE. You got the response that you knew you'd get when you started this thread.

Dee, you and I have had our past differences of opinion, but DAMN that was one fine response.   

[BUGEYE]

Maybe if you told the whole story first and put it in perspective you would have gotten a little different response. Honestly looked like trolling in the op

my wife tells me that I tell terrible stories because I ASSUME that everyone knows what I'm talking about.  going back over it, you're probably right. my apologies.

[Dee]

Actually BUGEYE, I have very few sore spots. I have opinions. Many folks like to accuse me of hating this or that, or certain folks. I can look in the mirror every morning and honestly say that I hate no one on this planet. There are folks I have no use for, but hate is not in the equation. Hating usually affects only the "hater", and seldom the "hatee".
Now! As far as potential for hating. I have no use for child molesters and feel they should be unceremoniously taken out and head shot with no real burial. I have no use for anyone that abuses children, old people, and women, and will not put up with it in my presence regardless of whom they are, and I have no use for a nasty mouth in front of women, and children, and won't put up with that either. I have no use for thieves, and folks that want somethin for nothin.
As far as catholics? I have friends that are catholic, and they know how I feel about their doctrine, but I ain't too impressed with several others either. Sore spot? Not hardly. The catholic doesn't affect me personally. But they sure do millions of others.
Now as far as Yankees? I don't care where your from. I care about how you act. As far as this discussion thing on the Civil War forums. I am only interested in the truth, not an opinion without actual facts. The war was fought, our side lost, but so did the other side. They fell for the lie, just like they did the Vietnam war, and the Iraq war.
But really BUGEYE. You got the response that you knew you'd get when you started this thread.

Dee, you and I have had our past differences of opinion, but DAMN that was one fine response.   

Casull, I am sure we have, but for the life of me, I don't remember what those differences were, and I'm too lazy to look them up.

[AtlLaw]

...I have no use for a nasty mouth in front of women, and children, and won't put up with that either. ...

Dee, you and I have had our past differences of opinion, but DAMN that was one fine response.   

I usually don't comment on controversial threads, but since you broke the ice on Dee's reply Casull, I'll make an exception!     That WAS one darn fine post!  Now the last thing Dee needs is an apologist, but everyone should know by now that Dee is a man of passion, however that passion is tempered with logic and reason.  And that passion should not be confused with hatred.  For example, I am two of the things that Dee has expressed his frank opinions on; an attorney and a Catholic.  But I consider him an understanding and caring friend.

Actually, I wish more people were as to the point as he is.  You always know where you stand with people like Dee.

I singled out one comment from Dee's post because it reminded me of something that happened many years ago.  I was still a patrol officer and was working an accident on I-75, just north of downtown Atlanta.  A very attractive local young lady, accompanied by an equally attractive companion, was at fault and had damaged a vehicle occupied by three people from "up north" who were, as I remember, headed to Florida.  The driver was quite upset and while I was filling out my report started a profanity laced rant about the "ignorant redneck b's."

At that point I dropped my clipboard on the hood of my patrol car and told the young man that, while I didn't know what it was like where he came from, down here we didn't use language like that in front of ladies and, as a matter of fact, we had a law against it!  I then advised him that if he didn't want to become a guest of the City of Atlanta jail, he would apologise to the ladies and then keep his mouth shut!  He apologised, not very sincerely, but never said another word.  He and his friends subsequently left, the the young lady driving the at fault vehicle got a ticket.

BTW, the law in Georgia at that time prohibited the use of "abusive or profane language" in the presence of women and children.  The last I checked it is now limited to children under the age of 14, but that doesn't mean the use of profanity is acceptable to everyone in all situations.  Of course, conversational profanity seems to be the norm nowadays and people don't remove their hats when in the presence of a lady or when entering someones home anymore.  But some people still believe good manners don't go out of style.

A spirited debate can still be civil!

[eastbank]

i don,t know who won the civil war(sure was not civil),but i know who lost, the common soldier. he bled and died for alot of fat cats who never smelt gun powder and got rich on his back. i had seven familey members fight in that war(gar),one was killed at gettysberg,two were taken prisoner and four made it thru ok. and i don,t think any of the survivers thought they won any thing. eastbank.

[Dee]

Well eastbank at least you realize it was fought over money, and not humanity. There was nothing humane about that war. I can't help rolling my eyes when folks start talking about it was over slavery. If it was about freeing the black man, why did it take so many years for the SAME FEDERAL GOVERNMENT to decide the black man could vote?

[eastbank]

i always thought the slaves were freed during the war to disrupt the souths transportation of war supplies and to clog the roads with the freed slaves, hampering the movement of southern soldiers. most soldiers who fought in the civil war on both sides never owned a slave,i know my familey never did(we were as poor as church mice then). picture is of our home stead in the 1860,s. eastbank.

[subdjoe]

Well eastbank at least you realize it was fought over money, and not humanity. There was nothing humane about that war. I can't help rolling my eyes when folks start talking about it was over slavery. If it was about freeing the black man, why did it take so many years for the SAME FEDERAL GOVERNMENT to decide the black man could vote?

Or to desegregate the armed forces. 

i always thought the slaves were freed during the war to disrupt the souths transportation of war supplies and to clog the roads with the freed slaves, hampering the movement of southern soldiers. most soldiers who fought in the civil war on both sides never owned a slave,i know my familey never did(we were as poor as church mice then). picture is of our home stead in the 1860,s. eastbank.

That was part of it, although if you read the EP you will find that there were large areas in the South to which it applied with the same force it did in the North and Border states.   The other thing it did was to give the Union the moral high ground in the eyes of various European powers. 

I like that photo, it looks about like where my dad grew up in KY in the 20s & 30s.  And not that different from how it looked inthe 60s.  And KY wasn't a Southern state.

That is something that many don't seem to understand - Reconstruction hasn't really ended.  The demonization of Southern people and culture continues, the reeducation continues, the revisionist history continues, even some of the special laws that keep the South firmly under the heel of Washington City, insuring that they are not free to run their affairs in the same way that NY, OH, or PA can, are still in place.  Heck, the federal government places more restrictions on the South now than there are Allied restrictions on the Axis Powers from WWII.  Quite possibly if the Northern establishment quit waging war against the South, the South would quit fighting back. 

[mcwoodduck]

Being THE Yankee in a southern Family.
When this subject has come up about the Northern agression war and the results.
I usually ask someone to grab a history book.
Let me get this right, it was the Yankees that started the war by making the rebels fire on Ft Sumter in South Carolina, after they State tried to seize all federal property around Charleston.
The Union army and the North was just trying to get it's stuff back.  Had South Carolina not stolen the Federal stuff....
But much like the beginning of the first world war the opening shot and why it was fired are often forgoten when the larger war erupts.

[subdjoe]

Being THE Yankee in a southern Family.
When this subject has come up about the Northern agression war and the results.
I usually ask someone to grab a history book.
Let me get this right, it was the Yankees that started the war by making the rebels fire on Ft Sumter in South Carolina, after they State tried to seize all federal property around Charleston.
The Union army and the North was just trying to get it's stuff back.  Had South Carolina not stolen the Federal stuff....
But much like the beginning of the first world war the opening shot and why it was fired are often forgoten when the larger war erupts.

Hmmm.....not just refusing to remove military forces, but reinforcing them in preparation to invade...real peaceful...yeah.   Yeah, for no reason at all, just out of a clear blue sky, suddenly SC forces decided to fire on the garden party and sewing circle.

 "Seize all federal propery" is an interesting way of saying "reclaiming territory stolen by the feds." (funny how the Feds can steal from the states, but the states can't dare to try to reclaim that property)

[AtlLaw]

And KY wasn't a Southern state.

You might read "The Orphan Brigade" a Confederate unit maned by Kentuckians.  Matter of fact, since I read it so long ago I can't remember what I read so I think I'll dig it out and read it again!   

The "Marietta Patch," an internet news, etc. site for Marietta and all of Cobb County, had an interesting article on Cobb History.  Though it deals with running moonshine, the comments on the attitudes of Southern people are interesting in the light of this thread.

Here's an excerpt:
Georgia farmers had distilled spirits from apples, wheat and corn since colonial times. Home distilleries provided a much-needed cash source for Southern farmers, who tended to be land-rich and cash-poor. In fact, brewing ales and distilling spirits had once been an honorable and gentlemanly occupation.
But after the Civil War, Georgia returned to the Union to find that the Internal Revenue Service was levying taxes on alcohol and tobacco. Many Georgians saw this as another example of an overreaching federal government and applauded the bravado of those who refused to stop producing liquor or to pay the revenue tax.
As the century turned and the South’s economy failed, more and more rural farmers found that their overproduced corn crops were more valuable when turned into whiskey. The cash made by selling these spirits was often the only thing that stood between families and destitution. Because they ran their stills by night to avoid detection, producers became known as “moonshiners.”
Since rural Southerners tended to blame their economic difficulties on a power-hungry federal system, moonshine runners took on a heroic status. But as violence in the business escalated, moonshiners became more ruthless with their tactics and fell into public disfavor.

The link to the site is http://marietta.patch.com/

There's other good stuff like:
Marietta jump starts the observance of the Civil War Sesquicentennial today when the Marietta Museum of History, the Marietta Gone With the Wind Museum and the Root House Museum jointly sponsor the family day event “The Yankees Are Coming: Life in Marietta During the Civil War.”

 

[Dee]

Richard that is really interesting, and factual. I just learned some stuff I didn't know, and had not thought of.

[mcwoodduck]

Being THE Yankee in a southern Family.
When this subject has come up about the Northern agression war and the results.
I usually ask someone to grab a history book.
Let me get this right, it was the Yankees that started the war by making the rebels fire on Ft Sumter in South Carolina, after they State tried to seize all federal property around Charleston.
The Union army and the North was just trying to get it's stuff back.  Had South Carolina not stolen the Federal stuff....
But much like the beginning of the first world war the opening shot and why it was fired are often forgoten when the larger war erupts.

Hmmm.....not just refusing to remove military forces, but reinforcing them in preparation to invade...real peaceful...yeah.   Yeah, for no reason at all, just out of a clear blue sky, suddenly SC forces decided to fire on the garden party and sewing circle.

 "Seize all federal propery" is an interesting way of saying "reclaiming territory stolen by the feds." (funny how the Feds can steal from the states, but the states can't dare to try to reclaim that property)

Just saying what the History books say.
Sorry that the books were written by the winners, but weather or not the fort was being reinforced or as the books say resupplied, The South shot first. and with over 400 guys shot at 85 that did not have as good of artillary as the Southern forces did.
And the State had to hand over X amount of land when it became a state or was purchased from the state.
If it was handed over as a condition of statehood and wanted to leave I can understand taking back the land, not the property on it.
If it was purchased,  The the State was stealing not only the property on the land but the land it's self.

[subdjoe]

I do believe that the record shows more from KY put on blue than butternut.  I had kin from there on both sides, great grand uncles at some removes (I can never keep that geneological stuff straight).

But KY, for all its links to the South, was a border state going neither one way or the other.

And KY wasn't a Southern state.

You might read "The Orphan Brigade" a Confederate unit maned by Kentuckians.  Matter of fact, since I read it so long ago I can't remember what I read so I think I'll dig it out and read it again!   

The "Marietta Patch," an internet news, etc. site for Marietta and all of Cobb County, had an interesting article on Cobb History.  Though it deals with running moonshine, the comments on the attitudes of Southern people are interesting in the light of this thread.

Here's an excerpt:
Georgia farmers had distilled spirits from apples, wheat and corn since colonial times. Home distilleries provided a much-needed cash source for Southern farmers, who tended to be land-rich and cash-poor. In fact, brewing ales and distilling spirits had once been an honorable and gentlemanly occupation.
But after the Civil War, Georgia returned to the Union to find that the Internal Revenue Service was levying taxes on alcohol and tobacco. Many Georgians saw this as another example of an overreaching federal government and applauded the bravado of those who refused to stop producing liquor or to pay the revenue tax.
As the century turned and the South’s economy failed, more and more rural farmers found that their overproduced corn crops were more valuable when turned into whiskey. The cash made by selling these spirits was often the only thing that stood between families and destitution. Because they ran their stills by night to avoid detection, producers became known as “moonshiners.”
Since rural Southerners tended to blame their economic difficulties on a power-hungry federal system, moonshine runners took on a heroic status. But as violence in the business escalated, moonshiners became more ruthless with their tactics and fell into public disfavor.

The link to the site is http://marietta.patch.com/

There's other good stuff like:
Marietta jump starts the observance of the Civil War Sesquicentennial today when the Marietta Museum of History, the Marietta Gone With the Wind Museum and the Root House Museum jointly sponsor the family day event “The Yankees Are Coming: Life in Marietta During the Civil War.”