Double standards

[williamlayton]

The South WAS severely chastised, Harshly--yes, Unfairly--in the eye of the beholder, overkill--yes, More than if Lincoln had not died--YES.
Both sides were still mad at each other, loved ones had been lost, debt incurred, fear of further reprisal's--yes and no, opportunist--absolutely.
When you demand a war, one should cosider if one can win--if you can't and do it anyway, don't cry foul.
It is a feud that will never end--mainly because the ones who lost won't let it--for many reasons--none very good.
Most folks, on both sides, have moved on to a more historical interest.
Blesssings

[subdjoe]

When you demand a war, one should cosider if one can win--if you can't and do it anyway,

The side that "demanded" a war won it. 

All those seven states wanted to do was what the Constitution did not forbid them to do.

[williamlayton]

OFF topic--but here goes.
It was a short sighted effort for the behefit of a select few---as all wars are--in the South.
Blessings

[Dee]

When you demand a war, one should cosider if one can win--if you can't and do it anyway,

The side that "demanded" a war won it. 

All those seven states wanted to do was what the Constitution did not forbid them to do.

This is a true statement of facts concerning the war.
One on this thread has said that they only want to discuss battles. I am far more interested in why the battle was fought in the first place. Another has stated that the South started the war according to history books. A history book, and a computer are much the same. Facts in, facts out, but many times it is "garbage in, garbage out".
Laws on federal books, statements made by state representatives, actions taken by federal, and state agencies, are all on record, and in most cases, totally dispute these so called history books regarding this topic, yet folks continue to read them, and quote them as fact.
A perfect example of "fiction over fact" is the perceived persona of Abraham Lincoln. The liberal, the federal government, and yes, even the black man, revere Lincoln as "THE GREAT HUMANITARIAN THAT FREED THE SLAVES", and completely ignore his racist, bigoted statements that he continually made in his speeches, and his intentions of deporting all people of color after the war. But there is his place in the "history books, as their savior.
IT IS A FAR MORE IMPORTANT ISSUE OF "WHY" WE'RE FIGHTING THAN "HOW" WE'RE FIGHTING. IF WE KNOW "WHY" WE MAY REALIZE THERE IS NO NEED TO FIGHT IN THE FIRST PLACE. NEVER QUESTIONING OUR GOVERNMENTS MOTIVES, AND INTENTS, AND IT'S "HISTORICAL BEHAVIOR", IS TO REMAIN IGNORANT, AND EASILY LED. AND NO. I AM NOT YELLING, I'M EMPHASIZING A CRUCIAL TO REMAINING FREE "FACT"!

[SHOOTALL]

After a conversation with a guy in walmarts sporting goods, I am gonna rant just a little and maybe get some kind of answer.
when the subject of slaves comes up, all southerners get their dander up and say they've never owned one and didn't want one and had never mistreated any black, etc.
now, I was born in 1943, long after the war was over, but southerners still blame me for it because I'm from Illinois.  when I'm with a group of people and these kind of conversations up, I have to keep my mouth shut to avoid accusations.
I really didn't start the war.

That's a fair statement. I think if most are honest few Southerners owned slaves . Like most wars the guys in the trenches on either side had little to gain from the war. I also believe the political ideals is what most today fight over. Consertive vs liberal. Also most poke fun rather than debate issues old or new. Consider the nort gave us Abe and O while the South gave us Washington and Jefferson , I ask is there really a fair fight here ? 

[Casull]

Consider the nort gave us Abe and O while the South gave us Washington and Jefferson , I ask is there really a fair fight here ? 

Ouch.   

[mcwoodduck]

When you demand a war, one should cosider if one can win--if you can't and do it anyway,

The side that "demanded" a war won it. 

All those seven states wanted to do was what the Constitution did not forbid them to do.

This is a true statement of facts concerning the war.
One on this thread has said that they only want to discuss battles. I am far more interested in why the battle was fought in the first place. Another has stated that the South started the war according to history books. A history book, and a computer are much the same. Facts in, facts out, but many times it is "garbage in, garbage out".
Laws on federal books, statements made by state representatives, actions taken by federal, and state agencies, are all on record, and in most cases, totally dispute these so called history books regarding this topic, yet folks continue to read them, and quote them as fact.
A perfect example of "fiction over fact" is the perceived persona of Abraham Lincoln. The liberal, the federal government, and yes, even the black man, revere Lincoln as "THE GREAT HUMANITARIAN THAT FREED THE SLAVES", and completely ignore his racist, bigoted statements that he continually made in his speeches, and his intentions of deporting all people of color after the war. But there is his place in the "history books, as their savior.
IT IS A FAR MORE IMPORTANT ISSUE OF "WHY" WE'RE FIGHTING THAN "HOW" WE'RE FIGHTING. IF WE KNOW "WHY" WE MAY REALIZE THERE IS NO NEED TO FIGHT IN THE FIRST PLACE. NEVER QUESTIONING OUR GOVERNMENTS MOTIVES, AND INTENTS, AND IT'S "HISTORICAL BEHAVIOR", IS TO REMAIN IGNORANT, AND EASILY LED. AND NO. I AM NOT YELLING, I'M EMPHASIZING A CRUCIAL TO REMAINING FREE "FACT"!

Someone has been reading Sun Tzu with his morning coffee.
There were many reasons that lead to the American Civil war.  No matter what small items you pick, it was about Money, property, liberty and pride.

[Dee]

Well, Mr. Duck. You are precisely correct, and I have said that all along, with money, and theft of resouces, the main issue to the north, and liberty and free enterprise to the south. By the way, I expanded on my red dot inventory after your kind introduction and gift. Have I said thanks? If not. Thanks.

[SHOOTALL]

That said the concept that the US govt. owes someone today because of what another govt CSA did several generations ago is hard to accept .

[Dee]

Ahhh yes. Reparations. Ya think they would be better off today living in grass huts, and dodging hungry lions?

[SHOOTALL]

I don't see anyone going back where they came from so we may as well go forward , not spend time trying to cheat each other .

[mcwoodduck]

Well, Mr. Duck. You are precisely correct, and I have said that all along, with money, and theft of resouces, the main issue to the north, and liberty and free enterprise to the south. By the way, I expanded on my red dot inventory after your kind introduction and gift. Have I said thanks? If not. Thanks.

You did say thanks.
And you are more than welcome.
glad you like (d) it.
Next time I am in your neighbor hood for longer than a couple of days I would like to meet you.

[mcwoodduck]

Ahhh yes. Reparations. Ya think they would be better off today living in grass huts, and dodging hungry lions?

Wasn't Lieria founded for freed slaves?
At one time it was the idea to send all freed slaves back to Africa.
One time in college the subject of reperations came up.
being Poly Sci major and having taken many Con Law classes It came around to me.
I said we should have reperations, that got a smile from the Professor and about 1/2 the class.  I said that at the time the Federal government took property belonging to people with out the due process of law under the 4th amendment at the time and in feeing the slaves Lincoln seized property with out Due process and those families that held slaves should be compinsated for the seizure."  At that point the professor was glowering at me.
He pulled me aside and said some BS about being discrimated against and being owned.  I said all groups have been discrimated against.  Irish need not apply, dirty eastern Europeans, Italians, South Americans, Mexicans.... and the list goes on and one.  it was cheaper in the North to get Germans and Irish to work the mines than buy expensive slaves to do the same jobs.  If an Irish was hurt, you fired him.  If a lack Slave was hurt you still had to take care of them for the rest of their life.  And if you want ot bring up the hard back breaking work of the slaves, all work in the 19th century was hard back breaking work.  I then asked this same guy aout Communism and his feeling toward it.  he agreed with it, I then asked if the state is picking the jobs and you work for the state for the good of the state are you not a slave?  China and Then the USSR were slaves states as well as the satalite state of each." he then stopped talking to me and left the room.

[williamlayton]

Do you think all Southerners were gallant and not tryingto line their pockets.
Ask my GREAT, GREAT, GREAT grandfather what some patriotic Southerners did with his foundry business.
Blessings

[mcwoodduck]

Do you think all Southerners were gallant and not tryingto line their pockets.
Ask my GREAT, GREAT, GREAT grandfather what some patriotic Southerners did with his foundry business.
Blessings

Mr. William, I think you have too many greats in there.
The civil war only started 150 years ago.
But I will bite, what happened to his foundry?

[williamlayton]

It was taken over by the South.
So much for rights of private property.
Bill will do--I am not deserving of a Mr. -- 
Blessings

[SHOOTALL]

Do you think all Southerners were gallant and not tryingto line their pockets.
Ask my GREAT, GREAT, GREAT grandfather what some patriotic Southerners did with his foundry business.
Blessings

For the record the ones from the north were CARPET BAGGERS ! and the ones from the South were SCALLYWAG'S ! Yes there were folks from both sides that used the war for personal gain .

[SHOOTALL]

It was taken over by the South.
So much for rights of private property.
Bill will do--I am not deserving of a Mr. -- 
Blessings

That can happen today .

[mcwoodduck]

It was taken over by the South.
So much for rights of private property.
Bill will do--I am not deserving of a Mr. -- 
Blessings

Sorry,
Southern  parents.
It was a sign if respect.
I can see a foundry at the time as being crucial to the war effort for the south.
was it returned to him after or did someone else, that was running it for the South take it?

[williamlayton]

Hiram Close had to apply to the President of the US to get his property back. The Southern government (texas) took over the operations and then the Federals (Carpetbaggers) took it from him.
I have a copy of the letter that he wrote in his own hand to president Johnson and the paperwork giveing the property back to him.
It will be asked and i am not sure if he collaborated or not---I get the sense that he did not from a number of things.
He came to Texas in 1837 from NY state, around Seneca, and is buried there. that is another story initsownself.
Blessings