Just wondering

[keith44]

I've been laid up all week, threw my back out last saturday.  In all the takin it easy I dug out some old magazines, and found something interesting.  Holland and Holland used to build a centerfire "Paradox" (bear with me here) it was an upland bird shotgun with rifled (fixed)chokes.  The gun could also be fired with conical bullets (proofed like a rifle) and was powerful enough for large non-dangerous game.  Now take a look at the "trade"guns, and other Muskets for a minute.  Was there ever a muzzle loader built like the H&H Paradox?  Excluding firing Minnie ball in a Musket is there anything (Kit or custom) that could be had today?  Given the price such a piece would command I doubt I could get one (partial rifled barrel with slight choke) and can you imagine how hard it might be to get a good load for such a beast?

Sounds like fun though

[stubshaft]

The paradox rifle had a constriction at the muzzle so that the rifling could engrave the bullet.  It was not choked as we know it today.  This does create a problem trying to force the bullet in from the muzzle end.

[Higene]

Not exactly what you are asking - maybe a Pedersoli Kodiak and a set of shotgun barrels?

Higene

[keith44]

I've got a Kodiak, but the paradox was usually a single tube gun

[Winter Hawk]

There have been several discussions of this in the NEF forum, and there was an aricle in Backwoodsman Mag a while back.  Brownell's sells rifled screw-in choke tubes so you could have the best of both worlds - regular choked shotgun or rifled ala the paradox system.

-WH-

[coyotejoe]

The paradox rifle had a constriction at the muzzle so that the rifling could engrave the bullet.  It was not choked as we know it today.  This does create a problem trying to force the bullet in from the muzzle end.

Yes, breechloading does have it's advantages. Paradox guns were never very popular. They tended to be a bit heavy for a shotgun and the rifled muzzle didn't help patterns. On the other hand they were a bit too light for use as a rifle firing heavy loads, nor were they so accurate as a rifle. Sort of like a Swiss Army Knife can substitute for a lot of tools but doesn't serve any one purpose so well as a single purpose tool.
  I have a 20 gauge smoothbore double which is very accurate with slugs from the improved cylinder tube and throws a good pattern of birdshot from the same barrel and I think I'd have a lot more use for that gun than for a Paradox.
 In muzzleloading guns I've owned a couple of doubles which gave good accuracy with a patched ball from one barrel and that makes about as versatile a gun as can be had in muzzleloaders.
 

[keith44]

The paradox rifle had a constriction at the muzzle so that the rifling could engrave the bullet.  It was not choked as we know it today.  This does create a problem trying to force the bullet in from the muzzle end.

 They tended to be a bit heavy for a shotgun and the rifled muzzle didn't help patterns. On the other hand they were a bit too light for use as a rifle firing heavy loads, nor were they so accurate as a rifle.
 

A bit heavy for a shotgun, yes.  Poor patterns, not the two I've seen.  Both were unmolested H&H single barrels.  I would counter that they ,like other hand built H&H products, were not very popular because for the same price you could have a sporting grade "Drilling"

[coyotejoe]

Goodness, you've shot one? I didn't even know they were built as a single, all I've seen were doubles with one barrel having the rifled muzzle. Both W.W. Greener and John Taylor disregarded the paradox for the reasons I mentioned.

[keith44]

I have had the privlege of holding one, watching it being fired, and watching the owner go through some very careful ammo loading.  And yes I also have had the privelege of firing one other.

Other makers probably did try to copy or modify the H&H design, to make it more affordable to manufacture, and I have no doubt that there are double paradox floating around somewhere.

As for patterns, yes I'll concede they were both "open pattern" guns throwing improved cylinder patterns.

[coyotejoe]

Keith, I have to eat my words, I "misremembered".  Both Greener and Taylor spoke rather well of that design. Greener said "Whenever large game is occasionally to be met with, they form the best armament for the sportsman."  Italics are Greener's. He said they shoot as well as the common cylinder bore but not so well as a properly choked gun.
  Taylor said "The Paradox was originally brought out by Holland & Holland, but I think any gunsmith will build you such a weapon nowadays". " They mostly have their own names for them such as Westley Richards "Explora" and somebody else's "Jungle Gun". Apparently the names were patented but the concept was not. Taylor went on to say "I can strongly recommend one of these weapons, they are most useful and a handy thing to have, loaded, in case of an attack on the camp at night". Taylor liked it for leopard with a 750 grain soft lead slug in the rifled barrel and SSG buckshot in the other.
  They both speak of side by side doubles and that is where I got the notion they were built only that way.
 The closest I've come to that concept is a rifled choke tube in a smoothbore Winchester pump. The pattern with birdshot was pretty useless at 25 yards and the accuracy with slugs was  no better than with the improved cylinder tube.
 There is good reason for them to be heavy though, loads are listed as 750 grain bullet and 4 1/2 to 5 drams of black powder or Cordite equivalent. That would be 123-137 grains of powder with 1.7 ounces of lead and firing that from a 7 1/2 pound gun would be flat painful.

[keith44]

...and so it suprises me that this type of arm has fallen from favor.  My little broke thinker has to wonder about a musket with a modified barrel (last 3 inches towards the muzzle slightly choked or jug choked with shallow rifling cut more as a relief from the bored area.

[coyotejoe]

You'd still have the issue of getting the bullet down the muzzle past the rifled section, which to be effective would have to be of smaller diameter than the bore below that section. If you're thinking of a minie ball, they cannot shoot accurately if sized more than .001-.002" smaller than the bore, nor would there be any way to prevent the minie from sliding up and down the oversize bore. I can't think of any way the plan could be used for muzzleloading.