Hybrids and other new car designs.

[Conan The Librarian]

What do you think of the hybrids? I think they're pretty cool, but...

1) I can't tow my boat with most of them, and the ones that do tow are ridiculously expensive.

2) I drive enough to realize the an eventual savings, which makes them interesting, especially the real high mileage cars like the Prius. Most people probably won't see a savings though.

3) There sure is a lot of hype about them

4) There are some really nice econo cars that get 35mpg highway that cost well under $20k new. They hybrids are all closer to $25k+, so it will take a long time to pay for the difference in fuel savings, even at high gasoline costs.

5) I'm not sure where the price of gas is going, but it's about twice what it was when Obama was elected, and I don't see it going down anytime soon, maybe never.

[SHOOTALL]

When they get it prefected to where a 3/4 ton truck with 4wd can get 40 mph and tow 18000 lbs I will look

[no guns here]

Hybrids aren't that great for much of America.  Hybrids realize their greatest efficiency in stop and go driving and slow city driving.  If you live in much of America, you spend a lot of time on highways and higher speed roads.  The best efficiency for that will come from a small turbo diesel.  Many of these can achieve 50-60 mpg on the highways.  What I'm waiting for is an affordable all electric that I can drive 50 miles at highway speeds and can recharge overnight from a wind generator/solar/grid tie system. 


NGH

[Dixie Dude]

I like Flybrids, not Hybrids.  Using flywheel power to accelerate to cut fuel costs.

http://www.flybridsystems.com/Jaguar.html

I know Chrysler experimented with this back in the 70's an had a New Yorker get 36 mpg.

Flywheels are cheaper to make and maintain than expensive batteries.  Even if they only add 20% to fuel economy, that is huge in the long run. 

[Brett]

What do you think of the hybrids? I think they're pretty cool, but...

1) I can't tow my boat with most of them, and the ones that do tow are ridiculously expensive.

2) I drive enough to realize the an eventual savings, which makes them interesting, especially the real high mileage cars like the Prius. Most people probably won't see a savings though.

3) There sure is a lot of hype about them

4) There are some really nice econo cars that get 35mpg highway that cost well under $20k new. They hybrids are all closer to $25k+, so it will take a long time to pay for the difference in fuel savings, even at high gasoline costs.

5) I'm not sure where the price of gas is going, but it's about twice what it was when Obama was elected, and I don't see it going down anytime soon, maybe never.

I think that everything you mention above is true.  I will also add.

6) The batteries will crap out in 3 to 5 years and have to be replaced at a cost of 2/3 the original cost of the vehicle.

7) I think that significantly more toxic byproducts are created in the manufacturing and use of these hybrids and their batteries than conventional gasoline automobiles.  Referring back to #7 how will we deal with all the dead batteries.   

If a significant number of them are put on the road how will that impact our already strained power grid?   Will more power plants have to be built to supply the electricity needed to charge them?  More power plants equal more toxic waste in one form or another.

I'm hoping that someone perfects a feasible method of extracting hydrogen from water and using that as a fuel to power internal combustion engines in vehicles.   

[guzzijohn]

Quote from Brett:

6) The batteries will crap out in 3 to 5 years and have to be replaced at a cost of 2/3 the original cost of the vehicle.

THis is not the case. I have a sister-in-law that has 2002 model and is still running the original batteries. A brother-in-law as a 2006 with the same batteries. Also see below:

As the Prius reached ten years of being available in the U.S. market, in February 2011 Consumer Reports decided to look at the lifetime of the Prius battery and the cost to replace it. The magazine tested a 2002 Toyota Prius with over 200,000 miles on it, and compared the results to the nearly identical 2001 Prius with 2,000 miles tested by Consumer Reports 10 years before. The comparison showed little difference in performance when we tested fuel economy and acceleration. Overall fuel economy of the 2001 model was 40.6 miles per US gallon (5.79 L/100 km; 48.8 mpg-imp) while the 2002 Prius with high mileage delivered 40.4 miles per US gallon (5.82 L/100 km; 48.5 mpg-imp). The magazine concluded that the effectiveness of the battery has not degraded over the long run.[50] The cost of replacing the battery varies between $2,200 and $2,600 from a Toyota dealer, but low-use units from salvage yards are available for around $500.[50]

GuzziJohn

[Conan The Librarian]

I can add that a lot of the manufacturers have specific long warranties on the batteries, like 100k miles or 10 years. The battery myth really is just a myth, it's not as expensive as often alleged. They can be recycled too. Prius has been around for 14 years, the first few were in Japan, so it just seems newer here. I think it became available here in 2001 for the 2002 model year.

[Dixie Dude]

Problem with the batteries is they use rare earth minerals and China has the market on about 85% of the rare earth minerals in the world.  The new flywheels being developed are made from carbon fibers (coal) that allow a higher speed to increase power.  The ones being developed are used in braking to store energy, then released in acceleration.  This either will result in smaller hybrid batteries or replacing them altogether and they cost less than the batteries.  These flywheels in a larger version are being tried in NY and NE area to help eliminate power surges and brownouts. 

Another problem with hybrids is they currently are only being used on small cars.  When they start putting them on larger trucks and suv's at a decent price, then you will see mileage go up. 

[Sourdough]

When they develop one that operates at 60 below, will tow my Track Vehicle on it's trailer, my 4 place snow machine trailer, my boat, with 4 Wheel drive, give me a call.

[magooch]

What I'm waiting to see is hybrid airliners and hybrid big rigs.  Until then, I guess I'll just have to hope gasoline doesn't become obsolete.  Yeah, I know--those things don't run on gasoline, but they do depend on hydro-carbon fuel and so do I.

[Conan The Librarian]

I don't think the  hybrid concept works very well with big rigs. They are at their best for people who do a lot of city driving. There is no value for highway driving. Diesel, aerodynamics, and reduced weight are, I think, the best ways of improving big truck efficiency. They are a lot better than they used to be, particularly the more aerodynamic tractors like the Volvos.

I found it interesting that the Carbon purpose built cop car uses one of the new "clean" diesel engines for power. I've driven clean diesel cars. Very nice! Lots of power, even in the 2 liter 4 cylinder models. I'm surprised there aren't more of them on the road.

From what I've read, GM is hiring engineers again, but they are all for development of electric car technology. That's an interesting stat. I think it's because there's a lot that can be done with electrics because so many urban people don't drive very far and it's a large and concentrated market. Honda and Toyota had diesel projects, but they cancelled them and dedicated their resources to hybrids.

I read the Motor Trend article on the Volt. Seems like a cool concept, after the price comes down dramatically. Basically the first 40 miles operates on an electric charge that's generally inexpensive to do at home (about 80 cents is about average). After that it runs on gas to power its generator, kind of like the diesel-electric concept for trains.  As with the hybrids there's no real value for people who drive a lot, except that they have gas engines with good fuel mileage.

Minneapolis bought a bunch of city busses that are hybrids. The newspaper said they paid about 2/3 to twice as much for those as for conventional busses. Seems like an extremely expensive bus to me.

[LONGTOM]

The technology for cleaner burning, fuel efficient internal combustion engines has been out there since the mid 60s.
The problem is that everytime someone invents something that really works the big oil company's buy up the patten rights to it and it gets shelved.
A friend of mine right here in Winchester perfected the water injection for gas engines back in the late 70s and was getting outstanding fuel mileage with them.
Then along came the oil companies and $1.7 million latter (in his pocket) and that was about the last you ever heard of it.
Someone in England invented a new design for a piston that improved the effency of combustion engines, never heard anymore on it either, wonder why?
The oil companies don't want this stuff on the market, it cuts into their proffit!

I don't think the internal combustion will ever be replaced.
There is nothing that will do the same job at anywhere near the low cost of what we have now.
Steam power, maybe?



LONGTOM

[Land_Owner]

I read the Motor Trend article on the Volt.

There are dissenting opinions about the Volt, its capabilities, its cost, tax credits, and comparable fuel economy (premium gasoline) to regular unleaded vehicles getting more economy for a lot less consumer cost up front.

A BBC report recently indicated a "Dot Com" funded entrepreneur was working (throughout Germany I think)  to build battery "retrofit facilities".  The largest single component/expense/problem of electric cars is the battery.  Their concept is for the car company to OWN the battery, make retrofit facilities "commonplace" and within easy driving distance.  You buy the car, drive 50 miles, pull in a gasoline station-like facility, they exchange their battery in 2 to 5 minutes for a fully charged one, you drive away.  "Your" depleted battery is recharged and put into another car in short order.  You own the car.  They own the battery and change it out like NASCAR.  That's a cool concept.

[Dixie Dude]

Back in the 90's Volvo developed a lunch box sized turbine engine that turned a generator.  The generator produced enough power to run the front wheels.  The back wheels had 8 marine batteries which ran motors on the back wheels.  The batteries were only used when the car accelerated.  The turbine generator ran the car after acceleration powering the front wheels and recharged the back wheel batteries.  It got 50 mpg on the full sized Volvo.  Haven't heard from it lately.  If you couple this with a lighter more modern car, you might get higher mileage.  You could add the flybrid braking system for additional help in accleration and increase this to 60 mpg.  Volvo said the large turbines developed by Chrysler in the 60s melted the asphalt.  The small turbine isn't as hot and has time to cool before exaust.  I like the turbine idea.  You could couple two of them for a large vehicle like a truck or SUV and get 30 mpg.  Changing out batteries every 50 miles isn't practical for a long distance trip.  There is also hydraulic brakes that can reverse for acceleration.  Maintaining speed can get almost any vehicle good milage, it is the acceleration process that drains fuel and energy. 

[no guns here]

Maybe a bunch of folks aren't getting the the idea.  The idea right now isn't that a hybrid will do any of those things.  The idea is that MOST folks don't do any of that.  A majority of the folks who DO, tow or haul, don't do it ALL the time.  In fact MOST of us do it very little of the time.  Everyone on my street drives a pick up, most of us drive half or three-quarter ton 4x4's.  I happen to use mine SOME, but definitely NOT every day or week.  Most of the other guys never seem to have any  dirt anywhere on their trucks.  I pull my horse trailer with 3 horses.  I haul one round bale every two weeks in the bed of my truck.  Sometimes I pull my flatbed with a car on it or ONCE in a great while with 4 round bales on it.  I may be buying a travel trailer in the next month also.  The thing is, MOST of the time we stay within 10-15 miles of our house.  Most of the time we are aren't hauling or carrying.  We drive our VW Jetta as much as we can around town to doctors, shopping, etc.  I could EASILY use a hybrid/all electric for daily driving.  No, I can't get rid of any or my trucks.  But I don't NEED to drive them on a daily basis.  I sure that MOST Americans are the same way.


NGH

[Pat/Rick]

Japan bought up the rights to Bolivia's lithium deposits. Touted to be VERY LARGE, I can imagine that more than a few years supply will eventually be extracted from there. ( Caps only used for emphasis, not as a symbolic gesture of shouting for the hard of seeing.)

[blind ear]

Maybe a bunch of folks aren't getting the the idea.  The idea right now isn't that a hybrid will do any of those things.  The idea is that MOST folks don't do any of that.  A majority of the folks who DO, tow or haul, don't do it ALL the time.  In fact MOST of us do it very little of the time.  Everyone on my street drives a pick up, most of us drive half or three-quarter ton 4x4's.  I happen to use mine SOME, but definitely NOT every day or week.  Most of the other guys never seem to have any  dirt anywhere on their trucks.  I pull my horse trailer with 3 horses.  I haul one round bale every two weeks in the bed of my truck.  Sometimes I pull my flatbed with a car on it or ONCE in a great while with 4 round bales on it.  I may be buying a travel trailer in the next month also.  The thing is, MOST of the time we stay within 10-15 miles of our house.  Most of the time we are aren't hauling or carrying.  We drive our VW Jetta as much as we can around town to doctors, shopping, etc.  I could EASILY use a hybrid/all electric for daily driving.  No, I can't get rid of any or my trucks.  But I don't NEED to drive them on a daily basis.  I sure that MOST Americans are the same way.
NGH

I drive a 2007 toyota Camry 2.4 l 4 cyl. 29 mpg @ 60 mph, 33 mpg @ 55 mph. It will tow 1000 lbs, easily a 2 wheel trailer with a medium 4X4 4wheeler. I have a 1994 F150 pu (16mpg downhill with the wind and pushing on the dash) that stays parked unless there is work to do. ear

[Dixie Dude]

That is why I think the Brittish are using Juagar to help develop the flybrid flywheel assisted acceleration in leu of hybrids.  They have already developed flywheel braking system to assist in acceleration thay promises a 20% increase in fuel economy.  If it isn't too expensive, that is huge.  If all cars and trucks were equiped with this flywheel system, that would cut about 30% of our imported oil.  Switching to natrual gas on fleets would cut 40% of imported oil, which means we would almost be energy independent.  Hybrids with flybrids combo might get us into very high mileages.  If hybrids help 30% increase and flywheels 20% that is a 50% increase in mileage.  I know of some trade school kids who built a 75 MPG car from a 3 wheeled motorcycle.  They used a hydraulic braking system that was reversed to assist in acceleration.  It was only a two seater vehicle though.  They used off the shelf parts.  So, it can be done. 

[LONGTOM]

I have a 1994 F150 pu (16mpg downhill with the wind and pushing on the dash)

Heck, my old 98 Chevy 3500HD ex-cab 4x4 dually with a 300 HP 454 and a 5 speed manual and 410/411 gears got 15.8 mpg out on the open road at 60 mph.
Hook my 53' drop deck that weighs 8900lb empty and ad 24,000lb of plywood plus the weight of the truck with 3 fuel tanks that held over 150 gal total and at 41,840 lb it didn't get but around 4 mpg at 60-65 but look what it was doing, half the job of a semi at about the same milage with half the investment.
This was done on a weekly basis for a few years coming out of Moncure NC to Winchester VA.
Never had a break down on that truck.
I use to average over 100,000 miles a year back when I was on the road for myself.
Should have never sold that one.

I don't think there will ever be an alternative power supply that could replace what the internal combustion engine can do anywhere as efficiently!



LONGTOM

[Swampman]

There's nothing that will tow a boat that isn't a gas hog.  If you can afford a boat (and the gas for it) don't worry about gas prices.

My neighbors spend $250.00 to $300.00 on boat gas for a 3/4 day trip.

[Dixie Dude]

Yep, if you factor in my Expedition, my boat, and gas, my fish costs about $75 a pound, but it sure is fun.  I just don't like importing oil when we have plenty here on government land, in Alaska, and offshore.  Now, if they would just start putting some of this new technology on big vehicle instead of little ones, then we should get 30mpg in my Expedition instead of 15-18mpg.  My boat uses a lot also especially if we water ski instead of fishing.   

[mcwoodduck]

There's nothing that will tow a boat that isn't a gas hog.  If you can afford a boat (and the gas for it) don't worry about gas prices.

My neighbors spend $250.00 to $300.00 on boat gas for a 3/4 day trip.

You sound a little bitter about the neighbor that can spend a few $ on fishing.  And the gas hog thing.
Are you ridding a scooter and wishing you had something bigger, but are telling everyone it's to save the plannet or fuel or what ever other silly stuff comes out of the minds of liberals?
If the guy want a "gas hog" to be able to tow a boat, go hunting, carry the family and all the stuff, or just wants one.
It's his money and he can spend it how he wants to.
Same as if I want a hybrid or not, or if I want an electric (not sure why as on some days i would need to stop and recharge two or three times)  but even the hybrids are not clean when you look at all the lead and weight in the batteries.

[Dixie Dude]

I spend about $75 in gas when I go fishing.  To and from the lake and gas for boat.  I use a canoe for the smaller local lakes, but the backwater from the hydrodams is a lot of lake.   I spend a little less to go hunting unless I go to the state game preserve and camp which can cost about $100 to hunt for a few days.  It cost either way.  National forests around here are very heavily hunted and crowded.  It costs between $300-$1,000 to be in a hunting club.  Then you have to spend one weekend a month helping repair tree stands, shoot houses, plant food plots, etc, during the off season. 

[Mohawk]

They are ugly as sin. I will not buy one. I know they can put that idea into some kind of better frame and package. Plus if a person drives their green car 500 miles a week and another person drives their full size truck a 100, who wins? A lot of variables to look at. Not everything is "mile for mile". I think the green cars have a niche and it will not expand beyond that unless the manufacturers listen to the consumers more.

[Swampman]

Don't care if the neighbor can't go fishing or sell his boat because noone can afford to use it.  Don't care about the environment.  I care that Americans are unwilling to do what it takes to return this country to what it was.  As long as we drive gas hogs we will have to kiss the arabs behinds.  It ok though because in a few years we won't have a choice.  I wish I could afford a hybrid but until then I'm stuck with a 40 mpg Echo & a Yaris.

[Dixie Dude]

I dissgree, we can drive gas hogs and still be independent of the Arabs.  I've said it over and over.  We have a 200 year supply of oil on government lands, offshore, and in Alaska.  We have a 200 year supply of natural gas, and 800 year supply of coal.  We don't need the Arab oil.  We need to get the EPA and other govenment agency's to let us drill and produce our own.

[blind ear]

Problem with the batteries is they use rare earth minerals and China has the market on about 85% of the rare earth minerals in the world.  The new flywheels being developed are made from carbon fibers (coal) that allow a higher speed to increase power.  The ones being developed are used in braking to store energy, then released in acceleration.  This either will result in smaller hybrid batteries or replacing them altogether and they cost less than the batteries.  These flywheels in a larger version are being tried in NY and NE area to help eliminate power surges and brownouts. 

Another problem with hybrids is they currently are only being used on small cars.  When they start putting them on larger trucks and suv's at a decent price, then you will see mileage go up.
>
>

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110322/bs_nm/us_china_rareearth
Reuters Wire
 China rare earth prices explode as export volumes collapse BEIJING (Reuters) –
     China's exports of rare earth metals burst through the $100,000-per-tonne mark for the first time in February, up almost ninefold from a year before, while the volume of trade stayed far below historical averages.
     China's squeeze on rare earths, which are used in a wide range of hardware including precision-guided weapons, hybrid car batteries and iPads, has forced prices up dramatically since July last year, when each tonne fetched a mere $14,405 on average.
 END Reuters WIRE

I agree with the use of energy recapture flywheels and the use of energy recapture hydraulics (which has been used in commercial/industrial construction equipment for decades, accumilators). These techknowledgies are not straight "consumables" but are mechanical and repairable and reuseable, even transferable to newer models or different machines. Not just another designed for obsolesence/replacement consumable as batteries are.

ear

[Swampman]

We have a 200 year supply of oil on government lands, offshore, and in Alaska.

We don't have 30 years worth of oil in the entire world.

[Dixie Dude]

Swampman I work in the natural gas industry.  Natural gas if found with oil, in coal mines, in shale rock formations.  Eisenhower, check it out if you don't believe me, put the oil in western shale formations (200 year supply) in naval reserve and created OPEC to use their oil up first.  I don't know what you are reading, but we have oil in the gulf, offshore California (no more drilling allowed), in Alaska's north slope, Anwar.  Lots in northern Canada.  If we were going to run out in 30 years, with vehicles lasting an average of 20 years, then why is the whole world making more cars?  The just recently had a huge discovery off the coast of Brazil.  They are just starting to get the Braken shale oil in North Dakota (not on government property).  If gasoline gets and stays above $4 a gallon, it then becomes cost effective to make oil from algae (greenhouses the size of Rhode Island could produce all of Americas needs).  Exxon is spending $500 billion I think, right now on algae greenhouses.  We don't have to import Arab oil.  It is stupid to do so.  Let the oil companies drill onshore on government land, let them drill in Alaska, let them drill offshore.  Sure there are risks, risks in every thing we do.  It is more risky to just drive around since 50,000 people are killed every year in cars.  At some point it will become economical to make synthetic fuel from our vast coal supplies.  The EPA hasn't approved any new refineries in the US in over 20 years.  We have to get our imported crude shipped to Canada or Mexico to be made into gasoline.  Environmentalists, regulations, etc, have killed our ability to drill and produce our own.  These same government regulations have driven our industry overseas.  Rare earth minerals are needed to make electronics and lithium batteries.  We have plenty in the US, but environmental regulations keep it from being produced here.  So they are produced in China an Bolivia among other places.  They said in the 1920's we would run out of oil in 30 years.  Hmmm, we didn't.  We discovered more. 

[Conan The Librarian]

I'm amazed at how much petroleum and natural gas have been discovered recently: Brazil, Canada, US. Astounding! Hundreds of years worth of fuel, and the remarkable thing about it is that the middle east is not among the countries with these huge new bonanzas. Combine this with advances in alternative fuels, the use of electricity in vehicles, and the eventual resumption of nuclear power plant building, and we'll have quite a lot of energy to use for a long time.