Author Topic: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal  (Read 7798 times)

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Offline Savage

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #60 on: March 30, 2011, 02:14:48 AM »
So to reiterate:  If you want to shoot both .40S&W and 9mm from the same gun you must start with a .40 no matter who's platform you are using.   

That would be logical. I would hate for someone to buy the 9mm thinking they could convert to .40. If one were to look at the Lone Wolf site, they would quickly learn that there are no conversion barrels offered for a 9 to 40 swap. All for good reason, they don't exist. 
Haven't tried it, but I don't believe the .40 factory barrel will fit in the 9mm slide due the larger barrel hood of the .40.
I hope this clears up any confusion.
Savage
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Offline Mikey

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #61 on: March 30, 2011, 02:17:50 AM »
McWood:  Williamlayton is correct about the 9x23 Winchester and the 9mm Largo.  The Winchester round is a much higher pressure round although it would probably fit the chambers of 9mm Largo/Steyr/Bergmann/Bayard and Bergmann-Bayard, which are all older European 9mm by 23mm length rounds but I dare say the Winchester round would blow a chamber and probably lock the slide back on most of the other caliber pistols.  I believe that is why Winchester named the round the 9x23 rather than 9mm something or another, just to avoid that level of confusion and the possibly and probability of a mistake.

You are correct in that the 38 Super, and its predecessor the 38 Automatic, are 9mm (although you can purchase 38 Super barrels with a .357 bore if you want..).  You are also correct in that the 9x23 Winchester and the older European 9mm Largo or Long cartridges are simply drawn out or lengthened 9x19 cases.  The 9mm cases, all of them as I recall, are tapered slightly whereas the 38 Super and 38 auto are straight walled semi-auto cases with a slight rim, which was the only throw back to the 38 spl revolver round from which they were based, iirc.  The 32 acp is also slightly rimmed as you stated.

And your last statement about the 357 Sig and the 357 magnum is also correct.  I s'pose Sig could have called it the 9x40 or the 40-9 or the 9/10 or something but they wanted the notion of the 357 magnum capabilities to sell the cartridge and you are correct in that it doesn't hit the 1400'/sec mark, not that you really need it with the 9mm. 

And speaking of the 9mm and the 40 in the same handgun - guys, c'mon:  the rim dia of the 40 is .424 vs the .391 of the 9mm, and the rim thicknesses vary sufficiently that I believe to shoot the 9mm from a 40mm slide is just asking for trouble with busted extractors, the same way we used to bust extractors by using 9x19mm milspec surplus in the older 9x23mm Largo pistols years ago.  Here's what happens when you touch off a 9 in a 40 slide - the barrel centers the round and upon firing pin impact the recoil slams the slide to the rear.  The 9mm case is barely held in place by the extractor and the case may 'slap' back and forth or front to rear if the extractor is not tight to the rim, and bust it as it appears there is significant dimentional rim differences in both case rims. 

If it were me and I had one Glock or S&W to multi-task with, I would get a 9mm, a separate 10mm slide and barrel combo for field use, a 40 S&W barrel and a 357 Sig barrel to add to the pile - then I think all my 9 and 10mm needs would be met.  jmtcw.

Offline Savage

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #62 on: March 30, 2011, 06:01:45 AM »
If it were me and I had one Glock or S&W to multi-task with, I would get a 9mm, a separate 10mm slide and barrel combo for field use, a 40 S&W barrel and a 357 Sig barrel to add to the pile - then I think all my 9 and 10mm needs would be met.  jmtcw.
The 10mm Glocks are on a larger frame than the 9s and .40s. The 9/40 slide will not fit on the 10mm frame. If you buy the 9mm, you're limited to 9mm. You could buy the 10mm and use a .40 or .357 Sig barrel. I am not aware of anyone making a 9mm conversion barrel for the large frame Glocks, if someone does then I would think you could add 9mm to the mix.

Your observations on shooting the 9mm in a .40 upper are likely spot on. My experience with that combo is limited to maybe 800 rds. I have a mdl 17 set up to run in production class USPSA, and a mdl 22 set up to run limited. The fire control system in the 22 is all aftermarket and has a much better trigger. I used the mdl 22 with the 9mm conversion barrel to shoot a few matches in production class. I've had no issues through the 800 or so rounds I fired. If I break an extractor, at least they're inexpensive and easy to replace. FWIW it was a rules violation to shoot a pistol in anything other than the original caliber. At least I removed the magwell to make it look legal-------------- :)
Savage
An appeaser is one who feeds the crocodile hoping it will eat him last,

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #63 on: March 30, 2011, 06:25:34 AM »
I forgot about the Winchester 9X23 as a round and always think of the Largo as the 9X23.
There was another round that was earlier then the 357 Sig that took the 10mm case and necked it.
I think 356 some thing. 
Don't have Ctg of the world in front of me to look.

I had one of the Astra 600 in 9X19 (Nato, Luger, parabellum) and not one of the 400s in Largo.
But ballisticly the two are the same.

Offline Mikey

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #64 on: March 30, 2011, 03:26:07 PM »
Savage - dang, you're right, now I'm gonna have to rethink this although I think the 1911 platform will do it all. 

McWood - I had a lot of fun with my Astra 400 and the 9mm Largo had sufficient snot for back then.  Actually, the 9x19 of the day (back then) used a 125 gn slug at about 1100'/sec.  The current mil-spec is beyond that and pretty close to what the 9mm Largo was back then, a 125 gn 9mm at approx 1220'/sec. 

I also forgot about another 9, the 9mm Mauser Export, another 9x23mm length case using a 128 gn bullet at 1280'/sec from the C-96 Broomhandle Mauser pistol. 

And the round you were thinking of is the 9x25 mm Dillon, a 10mm case necked to 9mm or maybe even 357, and that would be a seriously hot round.  If you found it in 357 bore you would have a wider range of bullets to choose from.  I think there is a S&W 356 something or another, a specialty caliber I'm sure.  Ahhh, so many calibers to shoot.........

Offline williamlayton

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #65 on: March 30, 2011, 04:43:21 PM »
I want a BB gun that will spit 'em out at 1500fps. 8)
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Savage

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #66 on: March 31, 2011, 01:50:02 AM »
Well, Mikey, I forgot about the 9x25! Just looked at the LW site. They also make a conversion barrel for the Glock 20 in 9x25. Now, that might even interest William.
Savage
An appeaser is one who feeds the crocodile hoping it will eat him last,

Offline Mikey

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #67 on: March 31, 2011, 02:06:04 AM »
Savage - I can almost hear his wheels turning now.........

Offline williamlayton

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #68 on: March 31, 2011, 04:22:06 AM »
 ???-- ::)-- :P-- :-\-- :)-- :D-- ;D
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Savage

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #69 on: March 31, 2011, 09:13:45 AM »
William might consider a 9x25 in a Sig or 1911, but got me doubts about a Glock!!!
Savage
An appeaser is one who feeds the crocodile hoping it will eat him last,

Offline williamlayton

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #70 on: March 31, 2011, 11:14:31 AM »
Glu---er, Glocks don't fit me.
I do know that the 9x23 is one easy shooting piece.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #71 on: March 31, 2011, 11:22:23 AM »
Not many have mentioned the Springfield XD-M.  My wife has small hands and we tried a lot of different brands and settled on Springfield XD-M 9mm for her.  I may get a .40 next year.  You can change the upper and barrel for a 9mm on their 40 and/or just the barrel for a 357 sig.  The Springfield is light like the Glock, but has the shape of a Browning High Power for the ergonomics.  It also works on the same rail system as the 1911.  The "M" version is a Match barrel.  The XD is for extreme duty.  I read an online review and someone shot 15,000 rounds out of one, put it in mud, dust, and water, wiped off and it still fired.  They tried various brands of ammunition.  The review said there were no jambs or misfires. 

Offline Savage

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #72 on: March 31, 2011, 11:54:16 AM »
DD,









Dude,
Pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee, don't mention an XD and Hi Power in the same sentence! Although the XD has decent ergonomics, it's nothing like the Hi Power.
Savage



An appeaser is one who feeds the crocodile hoping it will eat him last,

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #73 on: March 31, 2011, 12:02:26 PM »
I want a BB gun that will spit 'em out at 1500fps. 8)
Blessings
I have a rusian BB gun that will send them 500 FPS with a choice of single, 3 round burst, or 6 rounds.
and a cyclic rate of 300, 450, or 600 RPM.
Lead BB's will go in and out of 2 full soda cans ( in a six pack) at 25 Feet.

Offline williamlayton

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #74 on: March 31, 2011, 02:46:00 PM »
OMG--IF we can bump it up I want one.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Mohawk

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #75 on: April 01, 2011, 04:05:45 AM »
 And I thought getting paid to shoot a 1944 Thompson machine gun was interesting...... ;D

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #76 on: April 01, 2011, 04:15:28 AM »
OMG--IF we can bump it up I want one.
Blessings
My Father played with mine and had to have one.
He uses it to dispatch tree rats that keep getting into the garage.
The only down side is the mag only holds 30.

Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #77 on: April 01, 2011, 04:21:12 AM »
Savage, never handled a Browning High Power, couldn't find one at any store or gun show I've been to recently.   However, the article I read said the Springfield XD-M had the ergonomics of the High Power. 

Offline cwlongshot

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #78 on: April 01, 2011, 09:15:32 AM »
Savage, never handled a Browning High Power, couldn't find one at any store or gun show I've been to recently.   However, the article I read said the Springfield XD-M had the ergonomics of the High Power.
I do not agree. But you know about opinions ;)

I would say if you want to compare something with the Hi power, the CZ75 is a good place to look.

CW
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Offline Savage

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #79 on: April 01, 2011, 02:41:21 PM »
I have both the HP and the CZ. Both have great ergonomics. I actually prefer the ergonomics of the CZ over any of my pistols, and that includes my 1911s. I don't own any XDs but have shot them in 9mm and .45. They have decent ergos but are not in the same league as the HPs/1911s/CZs. Just my opinion. I prefer the Glock ergos over the XDs, maybe because I've used them so much. My favorite Glock frame size is the 23/19. May have to pick up another .40 in that frame size.
Savage
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Offline cwlongshot

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #80 on: April 02, 2011, 02:14:28 AM »
I have both the HP and the CZ. Both have great ergonomics. I actually prefer the ergonomics of the CZ over any of my pistols, and that includes my 1911s. I don't own any XDs but have shot them in 9mm and .45. They have decent ergos but are not in the same league as the HPs/1911s/CZs. Just my opinion. I prefer the Glock ergos over the XDs, maybe because I've used them so much. My favorite Glock frame size is the 23/19. May have to pick up another .40 in that frame size.
Savage

I agree!

 When the Glock first came out I was smack in the middle of ALLOT of shooting and training with a 45 1911. The grip angle on the Glock was simply unnatural to me. The countless hours muscle memory I was learning just screamed NO!. I did buy one it shot well. But quickly sold it as I didn't want to confuse myself. Shortly after the Shorty Forty came into being and I was in love!!  LOL  I HAD to have one!!  It was a great little Pref Shop gun!! But I had also begun building my second 45, this one for carry. It was a Steel LWT Commander.

Moving forward almost twenty years and many firearms. Working in the gun industry and being a instructor, I got to shoot virtually all makes and models of firearms. The XD, the M&P the H&K, all the Lil "blk" guns. The 1911 remains my favorite. But I must acknowledge, the Hi-Power and CZ. The 1911, Hi Power and CZ 75 are THE handguns all others are compared to.
My buddie wanted a new carry gun. I suggested the Glock. But he wasn't comfortable with no manual safety and went for the XD with its grip safety. Hey, that's what makes the world go round rite. the XD is a fine firearm and the guy shooting one is certainly not handicapped in choosing it.
 I'm again looking at the Glocks and the 40 S&W. A couple days ago I picked up a 3rd gen 23 with nite sites and a couple mags...heading to the range tomorrow  :)

CW
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Offline Swampman

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #81 on: April 02, 2011, 02:17:50 AM »
I just like the 9mm better because it's cheap to shoot.

I'm not a fan of the .45ACP for defense.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline bubbinator

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #82 on: May 29, 2011, 09:42:37 PM »
Our wonderful government spent $10 million  reinventing the 185gr 45 +p! As a 21.5 Yr State LEO(42 yrs total counting mil svs) I carried everything from 130 FMJ 38s to 45 230+P Federal Tactical. In my civilian career G17s were a failure, Sig P220s much better+ better hit ratios (less rounds meant better aim!) and for political reasons we went to G22 40s(New Administrator-a Glock stock holder felt we "needed" more bullets!) Qual scoes dropped due to sharper recoil not handled by poorer shooters. Given my experience with 4 yrs in SEA,42 yrs as a LEO/Shooter/reloader/student of Tactical/Practical self defense my carryguns are a G21 45(summer) and 1911A1(winter) due to moisture issues in the south. If I had a Stainless 1911A1 it would be a year round carry piece. My carry ammo is Fed 230 HST, WW Ranger RA45TP 230gr +P- New not black talon (SXT-same exact thing) and Speer 200gr Gold Dot +p.

Offline yukondog

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #83 on: May 30, 2011, 12:23:06 PM »
I'm one of the 40 fans I've had 5 40's sold all but one a HP, but at the same time a big 357 mag. and 45 fan, never did like the 9mm no particular reason. When I carry it's a mutt 45 I built from parts, and before anyone says it, it's very dependable I trust it more than my para 45. I would not feel under guned with eather one, it's not a matter of cal. but weather or not you can hit what your aiming at.
an unloaded wepon is equal to the same mass and volume as a rock.

Offline cwlongshot

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #84 on: May 30, 2011, 01:24:13 PM »
Well I did get to the range with the M23 40cal, a couple of my 45's and a S&W 638. As expected, it's a very good shooter!

All shooting was at 15' offhand.

Here is the 23 with Federal 180GR HPs fired deliberately, until the mag was empty. Say 90-120 sec.



Here is my primairy carry Comander. (Tuned with a Bar-Sto barrel) Fired the same speed, but less time because of the number of rounds. Firing Federal 230G Hydra Shok ammo.



Here is a 45 I assembled with spare parts some years ago. (Factory Springfield Armory barrel) Same "speed" but two mags fired. Target 200GR LSWC ammo.



Then I fired four mags from the 23 firing as fast as I could accuarately. These where 155GR HPs handloads with Blue Dot powder.



Lastly, my lil S&W. This is a three cylinders of 130 HP +P+ Winchester ammo. Again fired at 15' rapidly.




Needless to say, I am pleased.
CW
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Offline yukondog

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #85 on: May 30, 2011, 03:05:11 PM »
Nice, looks like you had a good time.
an unloaded wepon is equal to the same mass and volume as a rock.

Offline drdougrx

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #86 on: May 31, 2011, 03:52:14 AM »
Goog job CW!
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Offline mechanic

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #87 on: May 31, 2011, 12:20:00 PM »
Good groups CW!  Keep it up and you might learn to shoot one of these days........... ;D

Ben
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Offline Empty Quiver

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #88 on: May 31, 2011, 07:20:13 PM »
To the original post. U.S. Army. (Insert branch of your choice.)

30.06, .308, .223, .45, 9mm, what do these have in common? Uncle Sugar spent countless hours convincing impressionable young men that these cartridges were un-matched in the ability to kill people and wreak destruction upon entire civilizations.

The S&W .40 has roughly one hundred years of catching up to do. It has the backing of law enforcement not military. This means no cheap milsurp on the market. Puke a million Glock fotays onto the battle field in the Middle East and it won't be too many years before you hear GI's singing the praises of the .40 Smith.
**Concealed Carry...Because when seconds count help is only minutes away**

Offline rockbilly

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Re: Why don't more people shoot the 40 cal
« Reply #89 on: June 01, 2011, 05:59:23 AM »
Many military units issue the .40 to Special Ops troops.

The 9mm as a military caliber is strictly the "choice" of NATO, no other reason than that for it being in the inventory.......... ???

I agree, most of the argument for the calibers listed here good, but I am still convinced the .40 (or .357 Sig) are as good a choice for a personal defense weapon as it gets. ;) ;) ;)