Author Topic: primers blowing (Read 2351 times)

Shoots For Fun · « **on:** March 19, 2011, 05:42:44 PM »

hi all,

I am having trouble with my handi blowing primers. I bought the rifle in january 2011. It is a 204 Ruger. I have 300 rounds through it. For some reason it started to blow the primers. I am shooting all reloads, but not hot. 25.4 gr of Rel10X behind Hornady 24 gr NTX, 26.4 gr Bench mark behind 32gr Hornady VMAX. I can pretty much rule out anything in my reloads. My brother bought an identical one at the same time and my reloads work well in his gun.

I took the firing pin out and cleaned internal parts real well. I visually compared the firing pin with that of my brothers and everything looks the same. With the trigger pulled and the hammer dropped, the protusion seems to be just what is on the other gun. FTF's are not a problem. The gun goes off every time. Sometimes there is the black hole in the primer and other times the primer indent is filled with metal. The gun is not hard to open after firing, and it is printing 3/4" or better groups.

When reloading, I neck size with a Forster bump bushing sizing die, setting the shoulder back .002 when not FL sizing. Necks are turned to .0105. I use a .222 bushing which lets .223 neck diameter and loads to .225. This lets a .002 neck tension. I don't think anything in this would be the cause.

When I started I was using all federal 205 and 205M . I switched to CCI 400 and CCI BR4 with the same results. Maybe another primer like Winchester or Remington would work?

The only modification done to the gun was installing a wide Choate forend with the bi-pod rail which I bedded from lug back and floated the front. Then gun locks up real smooth.

What might be causing this and any input on what to to do would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

quickdtoo · « **Reply #1 on:** March 19, 2011, 06:54:58 PM »

Sounds like the loads are too hot for your rifle, it could have a short throat or tighter chamber, no two barrels are identical, loads need to be worked up in each. You might try Rem 7½ and back off on the powder a bit and work back up, I had pierced primers with other SR primers in my 6x45 Handi including the CCI, worked fine when I switched to the Rem 7½.

Tim

http://www.jamescalhoon.com/primers_and_pressure.php

keith44 · « **Reply #2 on:** March 19, 2011, 07:03:39 PM »

To the best of my knowledge there are only a few things that will allow a primer to fail to contain the hot gasses. Overloads are probably the most common. Have you tried to reduce the charge to see if that has any bearing? The reason I ask is only that a published starting load should be safe to TRY in all rifles. Increasing the powder charge to anything more can reveal signs of high pressure. Published max. or never exceed loads are not necessarily safe in all guns. Start there, reduce the charge. (I'm not familiar with the .204 so that is general advice) If that helps, change powders to try for the velocity you want. Another handloading trick is to check the seating depth of the bullets, and OAL of the loaded round carefully. A pressure spike can occur if the bullet is too deep, or out too far.

Gun problems are usually related to the hole the firing pin passes through being too large. Check to make sure that the frame is an SB-2 not someting else designed for low pressures. The FAQ sticky has info on frame ID's.

Post some close up pictures of the primers and case heads if you would please.

Keith

keith44 · « **Reply #3 on:** March 19, 2011, 07:07:03 PM »

Yes Tim is also correct try the Rem 7 1/2's they are a harder alloy cup

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #4 on:** March 20, 2011, 02:03:42 AM »

have you ever calibrated your scale of do you have a back up scale to compare it to? Or a chronograph to see whats really happening with that load.

bobg · « **Reply #5 on:** March 20, 2011, 03:04:09 AM »

Lloyd might have the right idea. What are you useing for a scale? Friend of mine had a Lee. Checked it with my check weights and it wasn't even close.
I had a lot of pierced primers with my Rem. 700 222 mag. Switched to the Rem. 7 1/2. Problem solved. If i ever get around to loading for my 204 that will get the 7 1/2 also. Just checked. If the scale is correct his load should be no where near to hot.

Shoots For Fun · « **Reply #6 on:** March 20, 2011, 03:30:30 AM »

Thanks for input

Seating depths are OK. Started with SAAMI lengths. Varied depth each way by .001 at a time. best groups come about .025 off of rifling. COAL is well within recommended limits.

Powder charges are verified using two scales, RCBS 5 0 5 and Franklin Arsenal electronic scale. I always start right above minimum and approach maximum in 1/2 gr increments, always checking for pressure

No other obvious pressure signs. No cracks, no shiny marks, no bulges. No head separation as checked with RCBS Case Master. Primers fit snug into pocket. Trim length is 1.840 to 1.845 on fired cases. Fired rounds chamber w/o resizing. Chronograph speeds show no wild swings. Pretty close to published speeds. Measured fired case from brothers gun for comparison, and chamber specs are almost identical. My headspace was about .002 longer.

Shot 25 rounds through his gun yesterday, not one problem, put one through mine and you guessed it, blown primer

I have been loading for shotguns, handguns, and rifles for nearly 40 years, and other than an occasional quirk, I never encountered this. Not blaming gun, I like it

and it shoots just fine.

Going to try Rem primers on Monday. Next stop, gun smith.

Thanks again.

drdougrx · « **Reply #7 on:** March 20, 2011, 03:35:29 AM »

I'd switch primers....I have a ruger 77 in 270 that I had re-barrelled and I shoot 1 grain less than max of RL22 under a 150gr NosBT. I generally use CCI primers...I have a few thousand Fed210s and decided to try them...blew 2 primers in every 10 rounds...CCI...no problem.

Shoots For Fun · « **Reply #8 on:** March 20, 2011, 03:37:46 AM »

HI Keith44

Will post pictures of primers later today. Not computer savvy enough to do without help.

One of my sons is going to come visit today and show me how!

Shoots For Fun · « **Reply #9 on:** March 20, 2011, 05:50:29 AM »

here is pic of what I'm getting:

gcrank1 · « **Reply #10 on:** March 20, 2011, 10:40:41 AM »

Kinda looks like excessive pressures, but, without it in hand, and my magnifier.........
FWIW, not all the centerfire firing pins in these rifles are the same. I have one that runs about (IIRC) .065" dia. that had a bit of a pointy tip. There are replacements that go about .075" with a nicely radiused tip. I did not have pierced primers because Im shooting relatively low pressure cast bullet loads anyway.
Get a loupe on and see what that tip really looks like.

keith44 · « **Reply #11 on:** March 20, 2011, 12:38:16 PM »

From the pictures the primers do not look flattened enough to be high pressure related. Check the firing pin like gcrank suggests, and look closely at the radius of the primer where the edge is radiused. Compare this to an unfired primed case. I think either the firing pin, or possibly head space is off. It looks like the primer cup is being extruded into the firing pin "hole" and or punched through by the firing pin.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #12 on:** March 21, 2011, 01:45:19 AM »

i guess my next try would be to switch powders and use a book load with something like 335 or 2230 and see if that happens. Could be a fast batch of powder. I grasping for straws here but its worth a try.

Shoots For Fun · « **Reply #13 on:** March 21, 2011, 04:27:05 AM »

Thanks for all the input.

I should have stated earlier that I have tried a myriad of powders. H322, H335,IMR 4064, W748,H4198, Rel10X, and Benchmark, with the same results.

From what you guys are saying and with what I have tried. I ordered a new firing pin from Brownells. The old one was sticking, probably from all the misfires, and not returning when the trigger was released. I honed it when I had it out and shortened it a bit to see if that would fix it. The firing pin returns now when the trigger is relaeased, but unfortunately, it is to short to ignite the Rem 7 1/2's. I am assuming the pin was bent during the process.

At least now, if I decide to do a trigger job in the future, I can disassemble and reassemble the trigger assembly. I like the gun and am not dissapointed in purchasing it, Sooner or later I will figure this out. When I do I will let you know what the real culprit was.

Thanks again.

revbc · « **Reply #14 on:** March 21, 2011, 06:08:16 PM »

Your primers look like mine did on my H & R 357maxi that had a rim cut to deep (excessive headspace). They look kinda puffed out and the primer flowed back around the firing pin. You should be able to set the headspace by the shoulder on the 204.

My 2cents worth.

Graybeard · « **Reply #15 on:** March 21, 2011, 06:33:32 PM »

Rel10X is one finicky powder. I no longer use it for anything. I've had situations where less than book max loads showed many signs of not just excessive pressure but massively excessive pressure. When you are blowing primers it's a pretty safe bet that load is too hot in that barrel.

You may have a headspace problem and that could exacerbate the primer blowing but I'm betting it's just too hot a load for that rifle.

I got rid of all my RL10 cuz I just don't trust it. A tenth of a grain has caused me to go from everthing seeming fine to pressures appearing to be 10,000-15,000 psi above ridiculous. I've only used it in a few different cases but the same situation seemed common with it each time.

Shoots For Fun · « **Reply #16 on:** March 24, 2011, 08:19:36 AM »

Hi all,

I am really baffled now. I got the new firing pin and firing pin return spring from Brownells yesterday, which I thought was really quick service, and installed them. Same problem!

I removed the extractor and cleaned it and also took a bore mop to the chamber and cleaned it real gooo....d. I loaded up two rounds each using five different powders, all at the starting load as recommended and used Remington primers and all behind the 24 gr Hornady NTX. I shot one each out of my gun and got five blown primers. Shot one each out of my brothers gun and ...sha-
zam..., no blown primers. All 10 rounds were fire formed to my chamber which is about .002 longer than my brothers.

I also want to mention that if I just ignite cases w/o bullet or powder, everything is fine. I read many discussions on "head spacing", to the point of confusion. Today I am going to contact Mr. Ulmer, a local gunsmith, who has done some extensive work for me before, and very well I might add, to get his take on the matter.

I want to thank each of you for taking the time to try and help me out. I will let you know what transpires when I get back from the gunsmith.

Thanks again.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #17 on:** March 24, 2011, 12:01:33 PM »

The new firing pin from Brownells fitting fine raises my eyebrows, I've ordered a couple from them, both were shotgun firing pins which are bigger than rifle pins, if it fit in your frame, the frame may either be a defect from the factory and pin hole is too large, or someone has fitted a 204 barrel to an SB1 shotgun frame, the 204 Ruger requires an SB2 rifle frame which has a smaller hole for the firing pin, pin should be .063" in diameter, shotgun pins are .074" or bigger and the size of the hole in the frame corresponds to the pin size. You can tell the difference between an SB1 and SB2 frame by the construction, SB2 are heat treated, investment cast alloy steel, SB1 are ductile cast iron, biggest difference in appearance is the SB2 is skeletonized in the tang around the bolt hole, SB1 are solid, the front of the SB2 frame where it mates to the forend has bosses on the edges, SB1 is smooth.

SB1 frames are notorious for piercing primers when too hot a load is used for the pin size, even on lower pressure chamberings like 357 Maximum which run 40kpsi, the 204 Ruger runs ~57kpsi.

Tim

SB1 on left, SB2 on right

2 of each, SB1 on left, SB2 on right

shot1 · « **Reply #18 on:** March 24, 2011, 04:10:25 PM »

I really think that your firing pin hole is too large around. It is allowing the primer to flow back into the hole and causing the hole to blow through. If you were getting too much pressure you would have leakage around the outer part of the primer not just blowing a hole where the firing pin struck. I have seen this same thing in bolt rifles and when they had the pin hole bushed it cured the problem.

Shoots For Fun · « **Reply #19 on:** March 24, 2011, 05:29:12 PM »

Hi Shot 1,

Thanks for your input. I will definetly have the gunsmith check this as it makes sense to me. The old pin was bent perhaps this wore the firing pin hole?

Hi Quickdtoo,

Thanks also for your input. I've learned alot from all of your posts. I'm a novice with the handi rifle. My only experience with a break open, is an H&R 20 gauge that I have had for more years than I like to count. The little single is a true companion, as I believe this 204 will become.

I pulled the firing pin and both the old and new, measure .063. From the pics you posted, I definitely have an SB2 frame. I'm going to get a box of Hornady factory shells in the morning and try them as well as confirm some measurements before I go to the gun smith tomorrow. I will post what he determines the problem to be.

This silly wife of mine says I love the gun more than her and with all the problems to boot! So she wants to know why? I say, "Why what?" She says "Why do you dote over something that is such a problem?" So, I look her straight in the eyes

and say, "I love you don't I?" Wrong answer

should have

Dezynco · « **Reply #20 on:** March 25, 2011, 02:36:51 AM »

I think you may be having a headspace problem. Your frame may be developing a little "slop" around the hinge area, causing an excessive barrel-to-frame gap. When you have excessive headspace (or frame gap), the cartridge starts to flow backwards into whatever empty space it can find rather than filling up the chamber. Usually this causes the cartridge to break just ahead of the rim, and that may eventually start to happen to your gun.

I think a trip to the 'smith is in order to have the headspacing checked, as well as excessive barrel-to-frame gap. I hate to say this, but I think your barrel lug may be worn, or the surface where the barrel hooks into the reciever may have worn.

huntswithdogs · « **Reply #21 on:** March 28, 2011, 10:12:11 AM »

Was the rifle new when you bought it? If I'd bought it new the first of the year, I'd be hollering at the manufacturer before toting it off to a gunsmith.

HWD

gcrank1 · « **Reply #22 on:** March 28, 2011, 11:30:26 AM »

So it has the small dia. F-pin, but does it have the hole for the larger .075 F-pin? I think we have previously said that the SB-2 's have the smaller one with no larger F-pin examples, but........
Try number drills in the F-pin hole to determine its size. If it will take a .075 F-pin that would be the next thing to try, before 'bushing' the hole.
FWIW, Frank De Haas (noted single shot 'smith) recommended up to a 5/64 (.078) dia. F-pin for centerfire with the tip nicely rounded (radiused).

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #23 on:** March 29, 2011, 01:52:18 AM »

id buy a box of factory ammo and see if they do it and if so send the gun and the fired cases to them and let them deal with it or youll end up shooting up more money in ammo then its worth and still have to start all over with load developement when it does get fixed.

Shoots For Fun · « **Reply #24 on:** April 05, 2011, 05:00:11 AM »

Hi all,

Back to NORMAL at last

. Went and bought a box of factory loads, all FTF's.

Went to the gun smith. Spent the first evening convincing him that it was not a reloading issue. He convinced me that it was not a headspace issue, either. A week later, we met again. He tore the receiver apart and found that the hammer spring was bent a little and also weak. He changed it as well as the transfer bar and sha...zammmmmm! it worked.

I fired a few of the factories while there and when I came home I ran my different reloads through without a hitch. What this had to do with the primers blowing or looking like they did is beyond my level of engineering. He theorized some things that I don't know about. BUT IT WORKS! He also did a trigger job on it when we had it apart. What a difference that made.

I learned a lot about this gun, about the manufacturing processes of H&R and the use of slave pins and general maintenance for the gun. It cost me $40.00 but I consider the experience and the info I gained to be worth it. And I also feel like I made a new friend and confidant as well.

My poor wife

, all she could say was that "I hope your happy now!" I said, "What's not to be happy about?"

Thanks again for all your help and input given.

Larry Gibson · « **Reply #25 on:** April 05, 2011, 08:31:16 AM »

BTW; there is a big difference between a "blown" primer and a "pierced" primer. Your primers were "pierced".

Perhaps not an important distinction to some but when you say "blown" in does infer high pressures and the load becomes suspect. When you say "pierced" a mechanical problems becomes suspect. In this case it was a mechanical problem and the correct term used should have been "pierced". All the time looking for a solution in the load was thus wasted because of the "red herring" insinuation by using the term "blown". Not being critical just pointing out something so perhaps knowledge is expanded.

Larry Gibson

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #26 on:** April 06, 2011, 02:02:18 AM »

ill give you a theroy and remember thats all it is. If you were getting light primer strikes you might also have been gettting squib loads. Sometimes with a squib load the primer will actually be pushed out of the primer pocket and then slam agains the back of the reciever or bolt and that pushes it back in. That could possibly explain the way your primers look. this will also happen if you load a round to low of a pressure.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #27 on:** April 06, 2011, 02:21:33 AM »

Make a chamber cast of your gun and your brothers and note if there is a difference . Or for 50 bucks get a go gauge and a no go gauge and check .

Savage · « **Reply #28 on:** April 06, 2011, 02:48:37 AM »

This seems to be a common problem with "Handis". I frequently hear of these rifles exhibiting signs of excessive pressure with what should be a safe load. I'm thinking there is enough spring in the action to cause headspace problems. Perhaps it's due to the action designed for shot gun pressure levels being barreled for high pressure rifle rounds. Could it be the action type and metallurgy are just not suited for rifle pressures?
With decent bolt rifles going in the $300 range, I don't understand the attraction of the handis. Now, a Ruger #1 I can get on board with!!
Savage

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #29 on:** April 06, 2011, 02:55:31 AM »

Savage you might have something , Seems to be alot of shimming going on ........