Author Topic: Beyond Nuclear...Germany...  (Read 492 times)

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TM7

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Beyond Nuclear...Germany...
« on: March 25, 2011, 05:35:19 AM »
Germany may lead the way 'beyond nuclear'....after getting the real info on Fukushima. My bet is Japan will be next to abandon this stuff.

yahoo.com

fyi..TM7

Germany set to abandon nuclear power for good
 
By JUERGEN BAETZ, Associated Press Juergen Baetz, Associated Press – Wed Mar 23, 12:33 pm ET

BERLIN – Germany is determined to show the world how abandoning nuclear energy can be done.

The world's fourth-largest economy stands alone among leading industrialized nations in its decision to stop using nuclear energy because of its inherent risks. It is betting billions on expanding the use of renewable energy to meet power demands instead.

The transition was supposed to happen slowly over the next 25 years, but is now being accelerated in the wake of Japan's Fukushima Dai-ichi nuclear plant disaster, which Chancellor Angela Merkel has called a "catastrophe of apocalyptic dimensions."

Berlin's decision to take seven of its 17 reactors offline for three months for new safety checks has provided a glimpse into how Germany might wean itself from getting nearly a quarter of its power from atomic energy to none.

And experts say Germany's phase-out provides a good map that countries such as the United States, which use a similar amount of nuclear power, could follow. The German model would not work, however, in countries like France, which relies on nuclear energy for more than 70 percent of its power and has no intention of shifting.

"If we had the winds of Texas or the sun of California, the task here would be even easier," said Felix Matthes of Germany's renowned Institute for Applied Ecology. "Given the great potential in the U.S., it would be feasible there in the long run too, even though it would necessitate huge infrastructure investments."

Nuclear power has been very unpopular in Germany ever since radioactivity from the 1986 Chernobyl disaster drifted across the country. A center-left government a decade ago penned a plan to abandon the technology for good by 2021, but Merkel's government last year amended it to extend the plants' lifetime by an average of 12 years. That plan was put on hold after the March 11 earthquake and tsunami compromised nuclear power plants in Japan, and is being re-evaluated as the safety of all of Germany's nuclear reactors is being rechecked.

Germany currently gets 23 percent of its energy from nuclear power — about as much as the U.S. Its ambitious plan to shut down its reactors will require at least euro150 billion ($210 billion) investment in alternative energy sources, which experts say will likely lead to higher electricity prices.

Germany now gets 17 percent of its electricity from renewable energies, 13 percent from natural gas and more than 40 percent from coal. The Environment Ministry says in 10 years renewable energy will contribute 40 percent of the country's overall electricity production.

The government has been vague on a total price tag for the transition, but it said last year about euro20 billion ($28 billion) a year will be needed, acknowledging that euro75 billion ($107 billion) alone will be required through 2030 to install offshore wind farms.

The president of Germany's Renewable Energy Association, Dietmar Schuetz, said the government should create a more favorable regulatory environment to help in bringing forward some euro150 billion investment in alternative energy sources this decade by businesses and homeowners.

Last year, German investment in renewable energy topped euro26 billion ($37 billion) and secured 370,000 jobs, the government said.

After taking seven reactors off the grid last week, officials hinted the oldest of them may remain switched off for good, but assured consumers there are no worries about electricity shortages as the country is a net exporter.

"We can guarantee that the lights won't go off in Germany," Environment Ministry spokeswoman Christiane Schwarte said.

Most of the country's leaders now seem determined to swiftly abolish nuclear power, possibly by 2020, and several conservative politicians, including the chancellor, have made a complete U-turn on the issue.

Vice Chancellor Guido Westerwelle said Wednesday "we must learn from Japan" and check the safety of the country's reactors but also make sure viable alternatives are in place.

"It would be the wrong consequence if we turn off the safest atomic reactors in the world, and then buy electricity from less-safe reactors in foreign countries," he told the Passauer Neue Presse newspaper.

But Schuetz insists that "we can replace nuclear energy even before 2020 with renewable energies, producing affordable and ecologically sound electricity."

But someone will have to foot the bill.

"Consumers must be prepared for significantly higher electricity prices in the future," said Wolfgang Franz, head of the government's independent economic advisory body. Merkel last week also warned that tougher safety rules for the remaining nuclear power plants "would certainly mean that electricity gets more expensive."

The German utilities' BDEW lobby group said long-term price effects could not be determined until the government spells out its nuclear reduction plans. Matthes' institute says phasing out nuclear power by 2020 is feasible by better capacity management and investment that would only lead to a price increase of 0.5 cents per kilowatt-hour.

In Germany, the producers of renewable energy — be it solar panels on a homeowner's rooftop or a farm of wind mills — are paid above-market prices to make sure their investment breaks even, financed by a 3.5 cents per kilowatt-hour tax paid by all electricity customers.

For a typical German family of four who pay about euro1,000 ($1,420) a year to use about 4,500 kilowatt-hours, the tax amounts to euro157 ($223).

The tax produced euro8.2 billion ($11.7 billion) in Germany in 2010 and it is expected to top euro13.5 billion ($19.2 billion) this year. The program — which has been copied by other countries and several U.S. states such as California — is the backbone of the country's transition toward renewable energies.

"Our ideas work. Exiting the nuclear age would also be possible in a country like the U.S.," Schuetz said.

Another factor likely to drive up electricity prices is that relying on renewable energies requires a huge investment in the electricity grid to cope with more decentralized and less reliable sources of power. Economy Minister Rainer Bruederle just announced legislation to speed up grid construction but gave no cost estimate.

And even if non-nuclear power is more expensive, Germans seeing images daily of Japan's crippled Fukushima nuclear complex seem willing to pay the higher price.

Ralph Kampwirth, spokesman for Lichtblick AG, Germany's biggest utility offering electricity exclusively from renewable sources, said since the Fukushima disaster it has been getting nearly three times more new clients than normal, up from 300 to more than 800 per day, despite prices slightly above average.

Sticking with nuclear power would also have its costs and require public funds.

The only two new nuclear reactors currently under construction in Europe, in France and in Finland, both have been plagued by long delays and seen costs virtually doubling, to around euro4 billion ($5.7 billion) and euro5.3 billion ($7.5 billion) respectively.

The disposal of spent nuclear fuel is also a costly problem, but it has no set price tag in Germany because the government has failed to find a sustainable solution.

Many decades-old reactors are highly profitable as their initial cost has been written off, but they now face higher costs as regulators push for safety upgrades in the wake of the Fukushima disaster. One of the most pressing — and costly — requirements is likely to be a mandatory upgrade to reinforce all nuclear power plants' outer shell to withstand a crash of a commercial airliner.

Utility EnBW pulled the plug for good on one reactor temporarily shut down by the government because the new requirements made operating it "no longer economically viable."

But even if Germany abandons nuclear energy, some of Europe's 143 nuclear reactors will still sit right on its borders.

Since France and other nations are firmly committed to nuclear power, shutting down all reactors across Europe won't happen, but Merkel is now pushing for common safety standards. The topic will be discussed at the European Union summit in Brussels on Thursday and Friday.

Merkel said the 27-nation bloc, which has standardized "the size of apples or the shape of bananas," needs joint standards for nuclear power plants.

"Everybody in Europe would be equally affected by an accident at a nuclear power plant in Europe," Merkel said.


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Offline Conan The Librarian

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Re: Beyond Nuclear...Germany...
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2011, 06:28:01 AM »
I'd like to see that work. It appears that they're close to breaking down the main obstacle: political obstacles. We have obstacles like that here in the US regarding our native wealth of oil, coal, etc. The article seems like a long winded way of saying that the US is stupid because it doesn't use what it has available.

Offline ironglow

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Re: Beyond Nuclear...Germany...
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2011, 07:06:24 AM »
I am all for finding alternative sources of energy...especially where we can utilize the natural abundances of our own country.
   Surely if we can play around Mars, we can find a way to extract energy from coal in a clean manner !
   One easy answer to energy/pollution problems but one which many seem indisposed to consider... is conservation..
  Conservation measures could be put into effect within a couple years, which would greatly reduce the demand for so much energy.
   The problem is that such a move would require LEADERSHIP !!  Note; I said leadership..not "pusher-ship" !
         So many politicians and celebrities who consider themselves to be on the "cutting edge" in their demand for all of us to be more 'green' are simply not even beginning to lead by example.  I don't mean tokenism, such as buying a Prius as their 5th car..but a real lifestyle change.
   Back in WW2, my uncle served directly under Gen George Patton, and my Uncle John told me of this example of leadership.         
    One day engineers were considering building a bridge across a swollen, cold, Volturno river..on the "road to Rome".  As such, it required that some troops swim the chilly river to plant stakes, ropes etc on the other side.  Nobody really wanted to take the dip, so they stood..debating who would go...Gen Patton showed up, appraised the situation and told the guys, "here's how you swim across the river"..and the General swam across and back, saying "now, hop to it" !     
      THAT'S LEADERSHIP !!
     Those politicians and celebs who demand everybody "go green" should show that kind of leadership..they may then , even garner a bit of credibility...
      If politicians like Al Gore would give up his limousines for a Kia (see below)  and  Barbara Streisand would move from her mansion (see below) and move to a more modest home for she and James Brolin..somebody (besides suckers) might start to believe them.
   
   BTW:  Al could dump the private jets also..he could travel by bus or train and passenger seat on an airliner for international flights.

       Sorry about the doubles on the cars !
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline Hit or Miss

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Re: Beyond Nuclear...Germany...
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2011, 11:44:04 AM »
I'm all for alternatives but as a taxpayer with way too many people relying on my to support them I'll have to pass on it for now!  Wait!  This may be a good place to start the WPA back up!!!  Maybe even the CCC!!
Which lie got to you so that you refuse Him???

Offline ironglow

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Re: Beyond Nuclear...Germany...
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2011, 11:57:23 AM »
  H o M;
  Absolutely;  the freebies must be stopped.  The healthy freeloaders should be assigned a job for their checks..even if it is only making little rocks from big rocks..that way, if they can find a decent job, they will be more inclined to take it.  Besides, it will get them into the "work habit", something many of them never learned.
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline Hooker

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Re: Beyond Nuclear...Germany...
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2011, 06:28:08 PM »
Let's see how this looks from a different angle.
On one hand you have nuclear power you can produce as much of it as you need or want anytime the need or want is there.
On the other hand you have solar and wind power you as produce as much power as you need or want as long as mother nature is in agreement.

I'll take the nuclear stuff Mother Nature is a fickled old broad known to have PMS.
Besides the Gremans have a history of saddling broncs they can't ride.

Pat
" In the beginning of change, the patriot is a brave and scarce man,hated and scorned. when the cause succeeds however,the timid join him...for then it cost nothing to be a patriot. "
-Mark Twain
"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms."
-- Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, 1787. ME 6:373, Papers 12:356

Offline ironglow

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Re: Beyond Nuclear...Germany...
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2011, 01:19:33 AM »
Let's see how this looks from a different angle.
On one hand you have nuclear power you can produce as much of it as you need or want anytime the need or want is there.
On the other hand you have solar and wind power you as produce as much power as you need or want as long as mother nature is in agreement.

I'll take the nuclear stuff Mother Nature is a fickled old broad known to have PMS.
Besides the Gremans have a history of saddling broncs they can't ride.

Pat

  Hooker;
  We are going through the "wind farm" thing in our township as I write.  The areas they intend to install wind generators on have been wind tested for several years and the percentage of usable winds is calculated quite well.  The wind farms work on a calculated rate.
  Yes, we still have the debates between the "fors" and the "antis".. The 'fors' are looking for 2 things..one wind generator or more on their land which would bring a handsome monthly check...plus reduced taxes for all taxpayers in the township.
  With the 'antis', there are some understandable complaints such as appearances and esthetics.  I have noticed however, a certain amount of seemingly bogus complaints..windflicker, ear-splitting noise and fear that the blades would come off and fly more than 1500' (the agreed setback)..the blades turn at 14.5 rpm.
  I seriously doubt the generators will pay for their cost before the construction cost is paid or the equipment is either worn out or obsolete...just another "govt subsidy" scam, as I see it..
  Some I am sure, are truly concerned with the bogus complaints (which don't stand up to investigation), while others are plainly envious of their neighbors, who are likely to haul in thousands per month.
   In any case, I doubt we will be getting any wind farm here, even though we have several nearby townships with wind farms.
       Wind farms are not really the answer either...just another  Dept of Energy "greenie game"..
   Frankly, just as our budget woes will only be answered by cutting back the spending drastically..I believe the best way to help solve the energy problem is to CUT USAGE per person with leadership setting the example' drill here & now..then ask FREE ENTERPRISE to come up with answers..and allow them to collect appropriate rewards..
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline Conan The Librarian

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Re: Beyond Nuclear...Germany...
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2011, 02:29:55 AM »
We have a bunch of wind turbines in Minnesota. The big ones cost over a million dollars each and they are not running most of the time and require a lot of maintenance. The result is that it costs about $3.50 per kWh for wind electricity and three cents per kwh for nuclear generated electricity. Coal is about ten cents per kwh. The wind power seems like a nice supplement to other power, but it seems like spending the hundreds of millions of dollars it cost for the Wind farms would have been better spent improving power plants with clean coal technology.

Offline magooch

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Re: Beyond Nuclear...Germany...
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2011, 04:43:49 AM »
I believe another route would be to require all Dumycrats and other "greenies" to use only so-called renewable power.  That should leave plenty of hydro, coal, oil, natural gas and even nuclear power for those of us who don't have a problem with it.

The same rules should apply to other energy use.  Greenies and Dumbycrats should only be allowed to own and drive electric vehicles--they could charge them up with their windmills.  Oh, and bicycles gliders, sailboats, canoes, kayaks and skate boards would be alright too.

An item that should be of interest to wind-power advocates is that those big windmills are built in China.  They are brought into this country through the port where I live.  On the other hand, there is a company that really wants to build a coal export facility here that would export coal to China.  The greenies are fighting it tooth and nail.
Swingem

Offline Hooker

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Re: Beyond Nuclear...Germany...
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2011, 03:56:48 PM »
I really don't have a problem with wind and solar energy sources, but do have a problem with junking a system that works and works very well.
I'm not the only one that sees dumping nuclear energy as a gross waste of resources.
Having worked for a international corporation as a safety coordinator I can tell that you don't shut the job down because of the dangers involved, you engineer the dangers either out or down to a controlable level.

Pat
" In the beginning of change, the patriot is a brave and scarce man,hated and scorned. when the cause succeeds however,the timid join him...for then it cost nothing to be a patriot. "
-Mark Twain
"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms."
-- Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, 1787. ME 6:373, Papers 12:356