Author Topic: I DO NOT RECOMMEND!!  (Read 4180 times)

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Offline rascal (Joe Duncan)

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« on: December 24, 2003, 03:02:36 PM »
Got your attention?? :lol:

This year I have been experimenting with some things on coyotes and while I do not recommend it for someone who does not have a considerable amount of experience with coyotes, I thought I would just pitch this out with some observations I have experienced this season.

I decided to NOT BE A COYOTE TRAPPER!!!    8)   By that, I mean I am doing some things that the conventional wisdom says we should not do.  I  have been making some "sloppy" sets,  leaving my tracks around, not wearing gloves when making the sets, driving my 4-wheeler within 4 ft of the set,  even using some rusty traps.  I am STILL CATCHING COYOTES!  

Now I know this goes against the grain.  Goes against me also.  I find it very difficult to do the things I am doing which should cause avoidance at my sets.   It pains me to "do it wrong".  

After 3 weeks of trying this, I have come to these conclusions.

1.  I live in an area which has rusty barbed wire fences, lots of old metal lying around, both above ground and below.   So perhaps, the coyotes are not associating the rusty trap with anything out of the ordinary and therefore are not skiddish about it.

2.  Since I live in a populated area where there are always people out in the woods hunting etc. and the farmers are out there checking the cattle, maybe my tracks are not cause for his alarm.

3.  Making the sets "bare-handed" has not seemed to bother the coyotes.  I do try to keep my hands clean of lure, and sure don't pick my nose :shock: , so I am guessing that after a few hours, my scent has dissipated and/or becomes overridden by the smell of the lures and/or urines.  I imagine that the coyotes here get the scent of human nearly on a daily basis.  

Now here is my conclusion:  Coyote is a dumba**.  NOT REALLY!  But I got to thinking that if the coyotes here got nervous about smelling human, smelling rust,  seeing man tracks or vehicle tracks, etc. -- hell, they would fall over dead of a stroke within hours of leaving the den area as a pup!  I think the surrounding circumstances of the coyotes in this area has created an acceptance to the above mentioned "mistakes".

Anyone have any ideas or input to this?
For Sale: Old wore out trapper - rode hard, put up wet, high milage and earned every mile.

Offline KYtrapper17

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« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2003, 03:38:23 PM »
I have thought about the same thing. Here is something I have been trying. I am limited to only about 8 coyote traps and since almost everyone of them have been out 1 has taken a coyote, 1 has taken a possum, and the rest have been set off or had pullouts. That means they are contaminated. With my busy schedule I can't find time to clean them up good so I am going to try this. Instead of keeping the set real clean, I take fox urine and spray all around the set including over the bed. That keeps the animal from pin-pointing the trap. I plan to try it out this weekend.

Good Luck,
Zach Ellis :wink:
Trapping ain't a sport; It's a way of life

Offline RdFx

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catching yotes in remakes
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2003, 05:57:05 PM »
I  have caught alot of yotes in remakes with same trap,,, just cleaned any blood if any and dirt off and reset and ive  caught yotes.... I also have clean sets nearby but i have caught alot of yotes in remakes with all original  set  just clean dirt trap is bedded in.

Offline rascal (Joe Duncan)

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« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2003, 03:45:36 AM »
KY;
  I do not think it necessary to pull a trap after a catch. As RdFx said, clean off the blood and remake if possible.  
  I took this pic at daylight this morning.  It is a set that first caught a fox, then a possum, and now this this morning.  I remake if at all possible, since it is my belief that a catch just enhances the location.  I do not pull the trap and put in a fresh one.  Of course, you can only get away with that for so long and then you have to put in a fresh trap or if the set is messed up so badly you can't remake.  In that case, I simply pull the set and at this location, I would just move across the old road or go up a few feet and put in a net set.  BTW, another set just around the curve held a grey fox.

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Offline RdFx

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Yippee
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2003, 04:15:38 AM »
Nice CHRISTmas gift Joe,  alot of new trappers should travel with a good long liner in whatever furbearer he is trapping and spend some time to see what actually goes on...... He will see the long liner slapping in sets quickly and moving on.  Now  the new trapper if watching  astutely will see the longliner doing   a few same distinct things with traps he is setting or resetting; for  instance if for canines   the longliner is 'bedding traps FIRMLY"  for one thing ect.  If for water lines trapper is still bedding trap firmly and setting according to furbearer he is after under water ect.  Alot of myths will be dispelled quickly.  Being able to follow and watch another seasoned good trapper is worth a million dollars to a starting out trapper so he can streamline his trapping and get to the business of catching furbearers.......But that is only half of trapping as now he has to learn how to put up fur properly  so as to get the most money or as you do Joe sell to higher paying markets......Any young trappers  reading this dont be afraid to ask questions  as thats why we are here... Oh Yea Wacky  did you  get your fingers out of that last yote trap   :roll:

Offline Wackyquacker

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« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2003, 04:28:43 AM »
On the subject of coyotes, cleanliness etc, in my experience it isn't always essential.  However, if you are clean, neat and cautious in your ways it is a bunch easier to trouble shoot a situation.  

In my country at least, many precautions that I 've read of would be a waste of effort.  I have a habit of jumping out of the truck and forgetting my leather gloves that I wear (when I remember)  to  remove catches.  I then end up bare handing everything.  Since I use a lot of drags and remake every one, I often bare hand a trap and put a dirty trap back in an otherwise clean set...and I catch over and over.  I can't remember of a digging at one of these sites but I'm certian that I have experienced it.  

At new sets, I always dawn my cotton gloves before picking a trap etc.  I remove these gloves after the set is complete and before I lure / bait.  I wear these gloves to kepp lure  not human smells off of my traps etc  

I strongly recomend that a fellow be clean and methodical in their habits but don't get carried away...it can be a waste of time.

Offline rascal (Joe Duncan)

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« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2003, 04:41:03 AM »
RdFx;
  You are absolutely right!  A long liner can teach a new trapper in a hurry.  I am not a long-liner.  Just wish I could be.  Certain restraints have prevented me from that.  Like you say, a long liner can slap set in a hurry.  Or even someone like us who has some experience can do the same.  It is not that the newer trapper is not as smart as us (I can be pretty dumb at times :lol: ), it is simply a matter of experience and as you say, picking up on the subtle quick moves a pro makes.  
  Also, your statment about bedding traps cannot be more true.  When I dig out my pattern, I then quickly sift some of the dirt back in and tamp it hard with a small shop sledge I carry.  This is the first step I take to prevent "rocking" of the trap, then I sift untill the trap is completely covered and use my fingers to pack in around the trap.  Then comes the final sifting.  This can all be accomplished within a minute or 2.  That makes all the difference in the world.  

"He will see the long liner slapping in sets quickly and moving on. Now the new trapper if watching astutely will see the longliner doing a few same distinct things with traps he is setting or resetting; "  

Again, this comes with time and experience.  When starting out, I would make so many moves, I lost count of which move should be next. :P   When in reality, I was making a whole bunch of moves that did not need to be made.  That was inexperience.  A good coyote trapper that has been at it awhile, seldom even thinks about the moves, he just does them as almost a second nature.  

It doesn't come overnight, but as you say, getting to trap with a pro can sure cut out a bunch of unneeded moves.
For Sale: Old wore out trapper - rode hard, put up wet, high milage and earned every mile.

Offline coyotero

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« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2003, 06:46:45 AM »
You mean to tell me that some of these things are "The Urban Myths of Coyote Trapping"?There is so much misinformation about catching coyotes it is no wonder people have a had time.Location,construction and attraction are the key.Be on target with simple set construction with "good smelly stuff" at the set.I have used undyed and waxed traps,bear hands and still caught coyotes.Some real good locations are trail intersections at gates.There is rusty steel here,fuel smells,man tracks,human urine,tobacco smells and who knows what else there and you still catch coyotes at these places.I prefer treated traps,gloves and to not get lure on my pattern or trap.I find if I reset the trap outside the catch circle I'm back in business.My coyotes(the majority of them) are "circle cautious" until the circle ages then I can go back into the circle for a remake.A man approached me about taking instruction last night.Little does he know the addiction has already begun.I have caught as many as 11 fox in the same circle,not so with coyotes here.Your mileage and coyote patterns may vary.Keep your powder dry,nose to the breeze and watch your topknot.
I love the smell of coyote gland lure early in the morning.It smells like victory!!

Offline rascal (Joe Duncan)

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« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2003, 07:21:52 AM »
Coyotero;
  Absolutely right, ya are!  Notice in the pic how small the catch circle is?  Just barely more than he can reach.  Short ( about 8") chain on a cross stake set up.  Another advantage to the short chain-- just have to move a few ft. to set up another set.  I have had coyotes avoid a catch circle until it "quieted" down.  But they will investigate and if another set is close by- well, you know better than I.  Bracelet time!

  As far as "bare-hands", now I don't want to skin a bunch of coyote and fox and then turn around and go right out and set bare handed unless I have washed up really good.  But if my hands are clean of any odor except mine, I don't have a problem.  I always want to be clean, but clean has a little different meaning when trapping, don't you think?  I can walk in cow s**t and the bottoms of my boots are "clean".   UNCLEAN to me is an odor that would be "foreign" to the coyote.

  Again you are right on the LOCATION-CONSTRUCTION-ATTRACTION.  I think those 3 things will cover a lot of little mistakes I might make.
For Sale: Old wore out trapper - rode hard, put up wet, high milage and earned every mile.

Offline snaresonly

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« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2003, 12:16:11 PM »
I have a few things I would like to add as a rookie. When I went out the first 2 weeks I had a pair of cotton gloves to set, a pair of rubber gloves for scents, a pair of leather gloves for catches. I thought snares where supposed to be quick and light. I spent 3hrs setting 16 snares. 2 weeks later I had caught 1 fox, 1coon. It was still taking me 2 hrs to check and reset if I had a knock down from deer. I then started thinking about all of the crap I was carrying. Deer hunters where walking right past my sets, farmers where plowing and spitting all over the place. So I broke every rule my instructor said not too. I carried no gloves. Had a mouth full of skoal and set brand new snares, not even boiled. As I started finding the good runs. I started catching more. I would even shoot a fox and get blood all over, then set another snare 5 ft away. Which would catch the following night.
Some of my sets are less then 100ft from a house. I have urban animals. They smell people everyday. Why would they be afraid. I think being a new trapper has it advantages. I was willing to try things a pro would never think about doing. I now have more snares out, takes me less time. I have still yet to catch a coyote. Part of the problem I my snare laws. I can only use an 8" loop no higher then the top of the loop 18" of the ground. I set up trail cameras. They have knocked snares down with their chests and chins. So they are not afraid, just to damn big. I think how you set and maitain sets has alot to do with the animals in your area.
The best part about being a rookie, when you are not catching much you will try unprovren methods. You have nothing to loose

Offline RdFx

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snares
« Reply #10 on: December 25, 2003, 02:56:09 PM »
Snares if i read yr post right your snares are set with an 8 inch loop  ten inches off the ground..... My snares are set 10 inches off ground and i catch alot of yotes....   You can set your snares the way you do and put a stick  right above yr snare  at top of snare on trails and yotes will duck and go into yr snares.  I hope this helps you and if i read your post wrong  correct me so  we  can help you catch  yotes.  When yotes travel in high grass they will keep there heads up high but on short  grass they keep  their heads down as they are trotting unless something gets there attention and they lift there head up high checking things out.  This trait could help you in setting for yotes .  Good Luck

Offline Dboone

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« Reply #11 on: December 25, 2003, 03:17:29 PM »
Here were I trap, I think the coyotes are so used to people being around, I find it's the hunters I have trouble out smarting, not the coyotes, I have trapped for 20 years or more, Was taught to set traps with bare hands, by my grandfather, who has been trapping 75 years, has bought furs for 70 years also, I have know problem getting big numbers of foxes, coyotes, fishers. with remakes and ect.. Dboone

Offline snaresonly

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« Reply #12 on: December 25, 2003, 03:35:46 PM »
Rdfx, there is something I noticed. I do not know their full habits yet. They are not afraid of my smell. However if I take and put a branch or something for them to duck under, they will go around it at about 10yds away. The red fox don't care. I have a few problem coyotes. They will go before the end of trapping season, but I would rather trap them instead of just shooting them. They are on a 3 week rotation. I can pin point exact trails on the neighboring property. When they reach my fields they have endless trails to pick from. I tried that snare on every trail trick  I have watched them knock down snares, then totally avoid snares that narrowed their path into it.

Offline RdFx

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Okay
« Reply #13 on: December 25, 2003, 03:48:06 PM »
Now  i know a little bit more on what you are doing we can narrow some things down.  You say the redfox arent afraid so i assume you are catching fox in snares.  I dont know how many snares you are setting but  ive set as many as 15 to 20 snares in one area that had alot of  trails... A yote uses some trails regularly but  all at once they get a bug  in the butt and cut off trail and go somewhere else... Ive seen it time and time again where i see a trail and  figure naw they wont use that one and presto next check guess what tracks are going on that unused trail ??? LOL.  Ive had refusals on some snares but  down the  same trail ive caught that same yote that refused that other snare in a snare down the trail.   I know some people catch canines in unboiled snares but i boil all mine in baking soda... What do you do with yours....?  I also set my snares with bare hands if its warm and dry if cold and wet or snowing i used gloves...

Offline snaresonly

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« Reply #14 on: December 25, 2003, 03:57:33 PM »
I boiled some snares like you did, some got dipped in formula 1(works great) Others I have done nothing too. I have caught fox in all 3. I had a fox refuse one sanre and caught him 10ft away in the next.  I caught 6 fox within 20ft of each other. My field looks like a bunch of crop circles.

Offline RdFx

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Okay
« Reply #15 on: December 25, 2003, 04:03:23 PM »
From what you posted you shouldnt have any trouble catching yotes but probably in areas  a ways off from yr catch circles.  You want the yote to be walking normaly and not his attention piqued up smelling the fox so he can walk into and thru yr snare so it tightens down.

Offline snaresonly

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« Reply #16 on: December 25, 2003, 04:20:26 PM »
I am thinking the same thing, just haven't connected yet

Offline Appleknocker

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« Reply #17 on: December 26, 2003, 03:56:28 AM »
Joe:
I think there is alot to be said about the precautions one has to take when trapping canines compared to the area you trap.  I have alot of respect for Asa Lenon and have read everything he has available as well as had considerable dialogue with him about different trapping situations.  Trapping in the UP where Asa lives compared to central lower Michigan where I live is quite different.    He has miles of forests and I have miles of farm land with sub-divisions sprinkled throughout.  "Man smell" to a UP coyote is diffenent where down here it is common.   Without question you can contaminate your set down here and get away with it, but in the UP that set is ruined.  The problem is the "nature of man".  Man is spoiled.  When we find we can do something with less effort and still get our desired results that is the way we start doing it.  Unfortunately, we don't stop there, we continue to increase our "less effort" until the results are not acceptable and then look for all sorts of reasons why without looking at ourselves.    It took many conversations with Asa for me to finally be honest with myself and understand the problem was me and the remedy was for me to change.  I now make every set as if I was in the deep woods of the UP and the difference is remarkable.  Perhaps the rest of you have more self discipline than I do and can take short cuts in setting traps and still be successful.
Another thing that Asa and I have had numerous talks about is the incredible sense of smell a canine has compared to ours.  He has made a believer out of me that too much sent can actually make a coyote shy away from your set.  Now that things are consistently froze here, I am starting to wonder if a louder lure would be more effective.  Even though your lure does not freeze, I think the odor does not care as well in freezing temperature.  Joe and Tom, what is your opinion?

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Offline Asa Lenon

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« Reply #18 on: December 26, 2003, 08:09:41 AM »
Appleknocker writes...
The problem is the "nature of man". Man is spoiled. When we find we can do something with less effort and still get our desired results that is the way we start doing it. Unfortunately, we don't stop there, we continue to increase our "less effort" until the results are not acceptable

Outstanding post appleknocker! I was going to stay out of a controversy with my trapper friends on this forum but it has become irresistable.

  Why would one want to think of all sorts of slipshod ways in which they could slide along by omiting factors and details?  One, in my opinion should be thinking "what details can I add or  buckle down on and increase my harvest?"  My Dad and I have instructed hundreds of students over an 80 year span and all of the students that adopted a professional attitude out shined other trappers in their area.  I don't care if this was the more difficult U. P. of Michigan or the easiest trapping location in North America, the students who listened became the best in their area.  Time and again I hear "saving time" as an excuse for sloppy methods.  Believe me, it is just as easy to incorporate high detailed standards into the trapline procedure that don't take an extra 5 minutes per day, if that.  I make sets in two to five minutes and still use the highest reasonable standard to ensure foreign odors are kept to a minimum, excess human scent kept to a minimum, clean traps are used, tracks are brushed out, guiding appears natural, set appears natural, etc., etc., etc.  Obviously each and every detail isn't essential to a harvest at every set with every animal but being that I don't know just where to be lax and being detailed is incorporated into the routine, I don't have to concern myself with that.  I trapped coyotes for 25 years during the bounty era where a trappers catch was public record.  One had to take coyotes to the Conservation Department to have various statistics recorded, one of the statistics being whether the animal was adult or juvenile. Well guess what, I looked over scores of those bounty records and always noted something that stood out like a sore thumb, the slipshod trappers were harvesting 90% pups and 10% adults where the detailed trappers, including myself, were harvesting 50% pups and 50% adults.  This is not to mention that my harvest and the harvest of my Dad's and my students was always triple that of the other trappers in a 100 mile radius.  Does that tell one anything about always paying attention to detail and not trying to second guess what one might be able to get away with?  Trappers who omit the human and foreign scent factors, along with the use of clean traps and equipment here in the U. P. are ALWAYS SECOND or THIRD RATE producers.  I realize that areas of higher human population and  urban coyotes are more acclimated to human and odd odors than our wilderness acoyotes  BUT all of the Lenon students who practiced the same U. P. high standards in their locality always outperformed the competition there too.  This, in my opinion is the result of a "professional attitude" ingrained into all open minded successful Lenon students.  Sorry if i'm coming through as arguementative but facts are facts.  My dad used to say he could tell right away when a new student arrived whether he would fail completely, just be a mediocre trapper or whether he would shine over the others.  Dad was right, I can tell the same thing whitin a minute or so of meeting the student.  If the student comes with no prior trapping experience, so has no pre-concieved ideas, they are more likely to be highly successful.  One who comes with pre-concieved ideas will not change them no matter what they see.  If they seen old charlie who never changed cloths, used rusty traps, spit snooce every few moments between puffing on a cigar with the ashes dropping at the set, used a bucket of rotten fish at every set, took a pee at the set and left his lunch papers and banana peeling at the set, disposed of his animals in a pool of blood at the set, catch 6 pups per season, they would insist my precautions were not necessary.  (This may sound like an exagerated joke of fiction, but I knew a bounty trapper just exactly like that.  He blew off at the bar about how many coyotes he bountied so I checked his records...six juvenile coyotes in seven weeks!  Ace

Offline rascal (Joe Duncan)

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« Reply #19 on: December 26, 2003, 11:32:27 AM »
Appleknocker;
  Notice my my title.  I DO NOT RECOMMEND!.  I do not recommend to anyone to do the "wrong" things I have been toying with this season.  At most of my sets, I continue to be very clean, use dyed and waxed traps, don't leave my sign or scent.  etc.   I try to do all the "right" things at most of my sets.  I just don't understand why I am catching coyotes when doing the wrong things.  I have always been a real stickler for my equipment and myself being clean when trapping and will continue.
  Yes, I to have the upmost respect for Asa.   I consider Ace to be one of the finest trappers any of us have known, and I take his word to heart.  I think he will be the first to tell you I have always preached cleanliness!  I use his lures and think they are first rate.  I always catch fur with his lures.  
 I also agree with Ace that to much lure can be bad.  In my climate, I better not overdo it with lure or it will take a few days for the set to settle down enough to get the coyotes to move on the set.   LESS LURE in warmer weather is definitely the right thing.  I can overpower a set in warm weather which will often cause avoidance.   Right now with our weather, a little gland lure and urine is about all that is needed.
For Sale: Old wore out trapper - rode hard, put up wet, high milage and earned every mile.

Offline Asa Lenon

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« Reply #20 on: December 26, 2003, 12:10:06 PM »
Rascal writes...
I just don't understand why I am catching coyotes when doing the wrong things. I have always been a real stickler for my equipment and myself being clean when trapping and will continue.

If one is  directly on set location and understand the animals they persue, they are going to harvest animals if they are there.  The more there is, the more one will harvest  A man who has the trapline miles you have rascal along with a vast understanding of animals behavior and travel routes in each season, along with using proven attractors is going to harvest regardless of omiting a few details.  However, for the novice trapper, they need every edge they can get.  You know as well as I do rascal that the biggest complaint one hears again and again and again is "coyotes or fox walked righ by my set", "stood back from my set and wouldn't come closer", "went way out around my set to avoid it", etc.  Novice trappers generally blame the lure which could be the problem in some instances.  However, it is more likely that the trapper has omited some detail that has been detected by the canine causing them to be wary.  It may be excess human or foriegn odor, unclean traps, over guiding, unnatural set appearance, crouding the canine where he can't see clearly around before lowering its head, overusage of lure or too strong of a lure for the season OR MORE OFTEN, A COMBINATION OF TWO OR MORE OF THESE DETAILS. Maybe no precise detail was the culprit but any combination adding up enough to say BEWARE!  When one learns to incorporate ALL details into every set, then they will be the envy of the competition.  The competition will be looking for your BIG SECRET or SECRET LURE when in fact it is nothing more than paying attention to details, both large and small, that makes one the most productive trapper they can be.  Ace

Offline snaresonly

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« Reply #21 on: December 26, 2003, 03:07:53 PM »
Ace I am not trying to disagree with anything that you experienced trappers say. You have tried and figured out what works best. You know your area well and could probably do well anywhere.  today when checking my traps I passed my neighbor walking her dog. she passes with in 5ft of some sets. Another neighbor calls me when he sees that I caught something. There is just so much human activity around my traps. That it seems no matter how clean I am, somebody else will walk right by with their dog or going hunting.
little history on my yotes. I have been with 20yds of them several times. They have eaten lambs, goats. chickens, and turkeys. 2nd sat in october I got up at 4am went out to hook up my boat for duck hunting. My last 2 turkeys where sleeping on the kids swing set. They don't fly down until my father gets up around 7am.  About 5min after my dad got up he heared a fight going down outside. He looked out and saw a coyote taking a turkey about 10ft from the house. From past experience when they come 1 night they will be back the next.  So sunday morning I headed out about 0615. I walked between my fathers house and his travel trailer about 20ft apart. I just got to the end of the trailer when the coyote took off right out from under the trailer. They had adapted well enough to know when the turkey would fly down and that they would come down about 8ft from the trailer. So it appears to me that on saturday they watched me hook up my boat and leave.

Offline Asa Lenon

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« Reply #22 on: December 26, 2003, 03:28:25 PM »
Snaresonly:
Good Point! I agree that human scent takes on a different rate of significance depending upon the canines conditioning from region to region.  However, a majority of coyotes and fox will walk on a humans snowshoe trail here in the U. P. too.  Its when one stops and lingers that the problem begins.  From my years of observation of canine behavior in a vast sand and snow country  where tracks tell the story,  canines using one's snowshoe trails circle way around any place where the human stopped and lingered for any significant time.  This could be setting a trap, eating their lunch or just resting.  Obviously, even in wilderness areas like my locality the animals smell human scent on a regular basis.  As I already said, its only when one lingers that it sends up a flag beware.  The beware flag rises even more intense when the excessive human scent becomes associated with similar sets and scents all along the trail.  This is why it is important to use measures to keep human and foreign odors to a minimum, use clean traps equipment, not track and traipse all over a set area and learn to make sets quickly and move directly on so as to leave less intense human scent permeated into the surroundings.  The less scent left, the sooner the set area becomes more acceptable.  This is my experience and that of my students over the years.  Ace

Offline Wackyquacker

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« Reply #23 on: December 26, 2003, 03:35:19 PM »
Snares, you may be missing the major point here...wether you are just starting or have a pile of years under your belt (like OLD Rascal) paying attention to detail will put more fur on the stretchers.   Its really hard to know whats up at a set without some sorta basis of evaluation...clean, equipment, techniques and habits allow you to sort through situations and come to productive conclusions.  When you are on location, the same behaviors will cause you to spend more time in the fur shed.

Offline rascal (Joe Duncan)

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« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2003, 01:31:29 AM »
Ace;
  I gave this considerable thought last night - even woke up during the night thinking about it.  Is that a sign on senility or just bad burrito. :P

  On the "sloppy sets" I was making:
  1.  My locations were "dead on".  I couldn't have made the sets closer to the locations unless I put them directly in the tracks.
  2.  Not trying to blow my own horn, but I do have a "workable" knowledge of what makes the coyotes tick.  His nature is something I have worked on for many years and will continue to do so.  
  3.  I use good lures and know the lures well and the usage of them.  You know better than I that the same lure may get a different response at two different type sets, depending on the particular coyote and how the lure is applied.
  4.  There is a large number of coyotes where I am trapping.
  5.  Now here is the kicker.  I went back over in my head each "sloppy" set I made.  True, at these sets, I was bare-handed, I was on my knees with just my jeans, I used traps that were somewhat rusty.  But, my moves were swift and sure!  Thinking about making those sets, I did not cut out any part of making the set with the exception of using a clean trap and gloves.  The sets were made exactly as I always make them. No short cuts.

Here is a curious observation.  Maybe you can help me with it.  I went back and checked my records. Without exception, every coyote I have caught in my "sloppy" sets has been female!  Adults and juveniles both.  No big dog yotes.  My first thought is that the big males detected something was not right.  But I would think that the adult females would have been more leary also.  Since these sets are all at entries and exits, did I catch her offguard in a transitional mode of "thinking" about her next move?  Or was she less wary since the big male was with her?

Dang!  Just when I think I know a little about these creatures, they will sure throw a kink in my chain :eek:
For Sale: Old wore out trapper - rode hard, put up wet, high milage and earned every mile.

Offline Wackyquacker

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« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2003, 02:41:46 AM »
Quote
But, my moves were swift and sure!
 NO WAY !  not in the last 25 years anyhow :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D

 A few years ago, or was it last year?, I was catching 6 : 1 females to males.  The big discrepancy was on the snare line.  Now I stay in some areas way long,  by the time I pulled traps I was dead even males to females snares and traps.  I have learned that it is not uncommon for sex ratios to be skewed but, statistically at least, it is a random thing nothing to do with IQ.

I doubt that yoour sets were sloppy.  You may have deviated from your habit but the sets were probably along way from sloppy.  

You left out one bit of info...how many trappers are working the area?  How long has it been since a trapper was in the area?  If anything, in my experience, makes a difference on the shyness of a yote it is the amount of pressure they are or have been under.

Offline rascal (Joe Duncan)

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« Reply #26 on: December 27, 2003, 03:09:52 AM »
WQ;
  Last year it was trapped by a fellow who didn't seem to know what he was doing.  He did catch a couple of coyote, but mostly by accident.  He didn't take any cats off the area and I have already taken 4 from it.  This year I have the exclusive rights to it and there is no one else trapping on it.  HMMMM!
For Sale: Old wore out trapper - rode hard, put up wet, high milage and earned every mile.

Offline Asa Lenon

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« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2003, 03:10:24 AM »
Good post Joe, thanks!  I'm not as fanatical as some might portray me on the forums.  I don't get alarmed if I happen to touch a trap bare handed or the dirt happens to touch my pants legs (another reason for starting the day with clean clothing)  while constructing a set, etc.  While I prefer a perfectly clean trap when possible, I do make resets with a cleaned up trap after a catch.  I use whatever is at hand to clean up the trap.  I get away from the set site a hundred feet or so and scrub the trap jaws with evergreen boughs if they are there.  This gives the contaminated trap a nice natural woodsy odor for my locality.  If there is no evergreens available, I use grass, weeds or just plain sand to scrub the trap clean of hair and blood. I don't let a little rust slay me either until it begins to get too extensive.  You hit the nail on the head Joe when you said you make sets fast and efficient.  To me, that is the most important aspect of human scent control, because as I mentioned before lingering is what appears to really alarm some canines.  Also, if one can stand back a distance or pull up on the 4 wheeler and choose good set locations from experience and common sense, they can then take their traps and equipment directly to the set location.  Otherwise, one is going to have to track and traipse back and forth all over the set location area just to find that appropriate set spot.  A dozen human scent trails is sure to get a wary canines attention.  There is another aspect here too.  When the canine is put in a wary alert mode, he is more likely to notice other things that may not be just perfect about the set.  But again, I can not emphasize enough the necessity for consistently paying attention to detail if one wants to harvest at a maximum rate.  When we try to second guess what we might be able to get away with, we are going to sometimes make the wrong decision.  When I grew up, I was fortunate to have a Dad who was the most productive coyote, bobcat and timber wolf trapper in the state of Michigan as a teacher.  To be honest, I thought at the time that he went overboard with certain things that I didn't think was necessary.  So, when I went on my own I decided for example that changeing into clean footwear that was worn only at or near sets was balogne because it seemed to tedious and time consuming for me.  So, I omitted some smaller factors like this that I had deemed overboard.  My coyote harvest was quite impressive because I had learned choosing set locations well, used set visibility, eye appeal and the prevailing wind direction, was using clean boiled traps and using the best lures on the market. However, my harvest was still 30% less than my Dad was doing with the same amount of traps and time expended! Finally, I decided that I must be doing something wrong and had better buckle down to detail.  I began to wear that clean foot wear, speed up set construction and generally pay absolute attention to every detail and the results were soon to see.  The next year I actually beat Dad by harvesting more coyotes than him.  Dad said "your younger and stronger and can move faster than me."  True, I would take a heavy pack basket loaded with traps and go into the back country  further where I was the only trapper, accounting for the larger harvest.  Ace  :grin:

Offline snaresonly

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« Reply #28 on: December 27, 2003, 03:44:15 AM »
Now I see  the point ace is making. When I was carrying all of the gloves, different scents and whole 9 yds. I would spend extra time at each set. I had to set all of my stuff on the ground, then make the set. This operation would take 10 or more minutes. When I lightened my load to just gun, snares, and a few little supplies that I could fit into pockets. I was spending less then a minute at each set. Snares are 1 use item, so I can't really have dirty snares. I have tried snares that where boiled, speed dipped, and nothing done to them. I have had the same success with all 3. I also realize that my catch went up when spending less time at each set. That I may not have been cutting corners just speeding up the operation. So the moral of the story would be not to leave extensive human scent at a set.

Offline Asa Lenon

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« Reply #29 on: December 27, 2003, 04:38:25 AM »
The Aflac Duck (LOL) writes...
You left out one bit of info...how many trappers are working the area? How long has it been since a trapper was in the area? If anything, in my experience, makes a difference on the shyness of a yote it is the amount of pressure they are or have been under.

Good point Wacky!  Back in Michigan's high paying bounty era, everyone was out looking to make an easy dollar.  One wouldn't believe the dirty,  sloppy and rediculous methods that were being use in every trapping area.  One had to work hard to convince coyotes that any set was OK, every detail counted to the max.  Things probably aren't that bad in any locality these days but when any competition is in the area, not knowing their methiods,  there is more likelyhood of canines being in a more cautious mode.  Ace