Sheer ignorance....

[ironglow]

      Caterpillar warns governor of  Illinoise...  the corporation is about to leave the state.
   Why ?  Excessive corporate taxes...
  http://nation.foxnews.com/illinois/2011/03/26/caterpillar-threatens-leave-ill-over-high-taxes
   Other, smarter (less crooked/) state governments, such as S. Dakota, Florida & Texas are waiting for them with open arms.  Last year Caterpillar paid Ill-inoise $ 48 million in corporate taxes..this year the governor threatened  them with a bill for $ 60 million.
  So, unless the governor "wakes up and smells the coffee" Ill-inoise will lose another revenue stream.
   Let's see if the Ill gov is smart enough to preserve Caterpillar !

[powderman]

My cousin retired from caterpiller. Ill is a hopelessly liberal state, even some of my own family there. POWDERMAN. 

[DDZ]

On top of the corporate taxes for Cat. It is costing them millions to come up with ever newer clean air standards for their diesel, and natural gas fired engines. Yet people think that corporations like Caterpillar are not paying enough taxes. States think they can keep milking businesses to make up for their poor misguided spending habits.   

[ironglow]

Quote from Powderman:

My cousin retired from caterpiller. Ill is a hopelessly liberal state, even some of my own family there. POWDERMAN

Removed by moderator. 

  Guzzi;
  We just got lectured on name-calling..

[ironglow]

  Some politicians are so unaware..I assume they never read the childhood story about "killing the goose that lays the golden eggs".

[Gary G]

Ironglow, that is the good thing about having states. If one state is oppressing you, then you can move to another.

It is too bad that most states rights were lost and a big controlling central government has taken it's place. Where do you go then?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To all progressives: the central state needs your money so they can use it to oppress you.

[ironglow]

Gary;
    Same flaw would occur, were there a one-world govt, no place for refugees to run.  Still, certain fairly bright people in the UN heirarchy seem to think it is a good idea..

[1sourdough]

 I'll say it again in case anyone didn't hear, 'and people wonder why manufacturing and jobs go to Mexico & China'. To stay viable you have to compete in the world market with production from elsewhere. Unlike government, a private company has to make a profit fairly often to stay viable. I still see plenty of folks who think a company is there to provide a 'living wage' regardless of their bottom line & while your at it tax & regulate the h*** out of them. Then they leave. It's so simple a blind man can see it!(from the movie Gettysburg)

[SHOOTALL]

Corperations don't vote .

[BUGEYE]

back when I started with Delta airlines, Birmingham begged Delta to move the headquarters from atlanta and promised zero taxes.  they knew that JOBS would bring more revenue that corp. taxes.

[ironglow]

I'll say it again in case anyone didn't hear, 'and people wonder why manufacturing and jobs go to Mexico & China'. To stay viable you have to compete in the world market with production from elsewhere. Unlike government, a private company has to make a profit fairly often to stay viable. I still see plenty of folks who think a company is there to provide a 'living wage' regardless of their bottom line & while your at it tax & regulate the h*** out of them. Then they leave. It's so simple a blind man can see it!(from the movie Gettysburg)

     Right Sourdough;
 
      And here's the reasons...some things we can control, some things we can't !
     But it sure looks like for those things we can change..the ones who have the power to change it..ARE NOT WILLING to do so.;
     http://www.eagleforum.org/column/2007/may07/07-05-02.html

      An older article, but still valid..
   

[Gary G]

Peter Schiff makes the same case as expressed here. He makes the point that why even tax corporations as they will ultimately use the savings to expand business (which creates jobs) or pay out dividends, both if which will be taxed anyway. Schiff is a business owner as well as a smart austrian economist as opposed to Keynesian economists.

http://www.europac.net/media/video_blog

[SHOOTALL]

coporate tax is smoke and mirrors , The cost is passed to the consumer so they pay taxes and don't even realize it .

[ironglow]

coporate tax is smoke and mirrors , The cost is passed to the consumer so they pay taxes and don't even realize it .

Yep Shootall;
    Smoke & mirrors..  Something like what the Obama administration is doing for Al Queda in Libya..."is not war" !

[billy_56081]

coporate tax is smoke and mirrors , The cost is passed to the consumer so they pay taxes and don't even realize it .

Bingo, you have just stated the fact that libs are too stupid to comprehend.

[Matt]

Caterpillar, Inc.100 North East Adams Street
Peoria, IL 61629-7310 US
(309) 675-1000
(309) 675-4332 fax
www.CAT.com   
CEO   Douglas R Oberhelman
Auditor   PricewaterhouseCoopers LLP
Exchange Traded   NY
ISIN Number   US1491231015
CIK Number   18230
NAICS Code   333120

Financial Strength
Revenue (TTM)   $42,588,000,000
Earnings (TTM)   $2,700,000,000
Quick Ratio   0.9:1
Current Ratio   1.4:1
Total Debt/Equity   2.63:1

Profitability
Gross Margin   34.1%
EBITDA Margin   19.6%
Profit Margin   8.7%

So in the last 12 months they have had revenue of $42,588,000,000.00 thats 42 Billion 588 Million dollars folks... Now the state wants them to pay 60 Million which is 0.14088475626937164% of the total revenue for the last 12 months. All of you folks in IL why don't you ask the state if you can get away with the same rate... I bet most would be glad to have a rate like that.
Matt

[mirage1988]

The individuals that make up cat pay income taxes on their income- why should they be taxed as individuals and as a corp- Isn't that double taxation?
 When a corp that produces a product has to pay more taxes, they have to charge more for their product and since most consumers only look at the price tag they grab the chinese made piece of crap because its cheaper.
That is why there is very little manufacturing left in the US.
 Power tools are a good example, compare prices vs quality between a skilsaw made in america 20 years ago that cost 30 dollars that will last another 100 years to the china made one that cost 30 dollars that will be wore out before the blade gets dull.
 

[ironglow]

  That $42 billion is of course, total sales world-wide. In Matt's post, it shows a profit of 8.7%; not an outrageous figure for one's risking their capital.  Remember the investors will also pay taxes on that 8.7%, and in many states pay more sales tax on anything they buy..   Notice the 6th paragraph  in the link below;
 
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-07-22/caterpillar-profit-tops-estimates-annual-earnings-will-exceed-forecast.html 

    Of course, their manufacturing and sales are in many countries, some of them having corporate taxes nearly as high as in the US.
       
     Here we are talking about $60,000,000 in Illinois tax alone..not even considering the feds bite.  What brought this discussion up was, except that there has been a new demand by state government for much higher taxes to be levied upon Caterpillar...when governments should be cutting taxes and spending, as we all should be realizing..

   Let's not lose perspective..it was recently disclosed that GE (CEO Immelt, friend of Obama)  paid zero, nil, nada corporate tax to the feds last year..  Until the feds get to the point of taxing corporations on a fair & balanced manner, tax grabbing politicians have few justifiably honest complaints against corporations already being soaked.

      The simple fact is that Illinois has a decision to make; they can keep Caterpillar in the state with it's 23,000 jobs, and keep the "full loaf" of taxes they are now getting...or they can go for the "loaf and a half" in taxes, and perhaps lose the whole ball-of-wax to one of the half dozen states already courting Caterpillar.   Adding to the fact that Illinois gov, Pat Quinn has also raised individual income taxes and Cat recently signed a new, costly contract with unions...makes it even more tempting for Cat to move to a right-to-work state without state income taxes.
   http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-ap-il-caterpillar-quinn,0,6225023.story

[ironglow]

An interesting article by a local observer;
    http://www.examiner.com/career-transition-in-chicago/the-business-tax-conundrum-and-why-caterpillar-may-crawl-away-from-illinois

[1sourdough]

 I think to be fair you have to compare 'IL profits' to the IL taxes paid, not worldwide revenue. Didn't the Winchester(Olin) ammo plant shut down in IL & move to MS a few years ago? IL is centrally located & it would be a pain for Cat to move but it sure would be a body blow to IL. Just look whats going on in WI, OH, & other states with modest reductions in state worker benefits. I don't think government is capable of reducing spending in a meaningful way. No one can say we have low taxes here in WI, something has to give. Many of these same state workers leave WI when they retire,lower costs & taxes are a part of that.

[billy_56081]

In South Dakota caterpillar would have paid the same income tax rate as everyone elsethere, zero.

[Pat/Rick]

Maybe they could borrow GE's accountants?

[ironglow]

1sourdough says;
  " I don't think government capable of reducing spending in a meaningful way. "

  Ironglow says;
         Well, he sure hit the nail on the head there !  the Dems are bound and determined to shut down the federal govt, rather than to trim the federal budget in any meaningful way.  They come up with some token penny-pinching..offering some $30 billion in cuts to the annual budget.. on a typical day when we were borrowing and spending $72 billion on that day alone !  They refuse to back away from the trough ..even for a breath of air !!


TM:
    In your last post, you proved my point..
 
A) Whatever the tax, it's part of the production costs and the corporations must pass it on to their customers..no other way to cover it. 

B) Yes, if high taxes cause their costs to rise to the point where it is very difficult or even impossible to compete, the corporation has little choice but to move operations to a more compatible location, be it in another state or another country.
     
C) ...All common sense ..logic 101..


   BTW:  The news articles did not mention any tax cuts for Caterpillar..only tax increases; unless you somehow construe a tax freeze... as a tax cut..

[ironglow]

Maybe they could borrow GE's accountants?

   Hey Pat/Rick;
  They could do that , or take lessons from treasury secy Tim Geithner and Rep Charlie Rangel (D-NY) on how to not pay taxes...and get clean away with it !

[Buckskin]

Wait a minute!!! I thought most corporations paid zero in taxes!  How come CAT is getting pounded on here???
What's going on here?  Certainly CAT is big enough and have enough clout to get out of taxes...  Hmmm, maybe all this hullabalu is for real about taxes being to high. Maybe it does matter...

Ok, I've put out my cynical view.  Now it's time for others to bring out the class warfare mumbo-jumbo...

I know Wisconsin is courting CAT to move its operations into the state. And your darn right they will get tax breaks!  Bring 25,000 jobs into the state, you will be rewarded...

[ironglow]

  TM says;
  "So IG...I'm going to have to make a few assumptions based on what I gather are your concerns.

...The Founder's original tax ideas...no tax on wages is old hat...wages are no the true source of government tax revenue The Modern America should only tax endstage wage earners because corporate tax hinders corporations beyond their ability to cope and so they must flee. Therefore, there should be no corporate taxes as this is just passed onto consumers anyway, despite marginal analysis of produt/unit costs and consumer discretions".

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

  TM;
    True, the founders did not assume taxes on wages...but they didn't levy taxes on corporations either.  The original concept was to operate the govt with funds from tariffs only.  Remember, originally they ran with the Constitution as a guideline   
   There were a couple anomalies..such as Shea's rebellion...but generally, the tariff funds were enough to take care of govt expenses.
  Through the years govt grew and grew, got fat and bloated and started taking more and more of the people's hard earned wages.  From the huge expansion of govt over the last two years and uncontrolled spending, govt now uses something like 46% of the GDP..perhaps even more now as we speak.

    It's not that we are not taxed enough...it that the govt spends too much...  Time those DC parasites quit spending !
  "Tapering off" doesn't work, they've tried that before...our only hope is that they quit "cold turkey", and the Tea Party is trying to force them into it...but the old 'party hacks' are resisting..

[jimster]

It's not that we are not taxed enough...it that the govt spends too much

Exactly it.  And this creates all the problems we have, the government looking for more money, the people the government supports looking for more money, the unions looking for more money, and nobody that uses tax money wants to use "spending" in their formula...of course...that would cut off THEIR supply.  So pretty soon you have people pointing fingers at who they want to "take" money from...till you get to where we all are now.  No jobs, no tax payers, a handful of people screaming for money they used to get but is not there anymore.

The beatings on capitalism and will continue I'm sure, the title of this thread says it all... Sheer ignorance
The only thing that can fix it is a total crash...see Detroit...no more screaming there. No unions, no tax payers, no buildings, no police, nothing but ruins.  The ignorance does not stop when it all crashes, we still have people pointing at other people with money and say..."take theirs"...unbelievable...they can't figure out that they themselves have to make money and stop taking it from others. Sheer ignorance indeed.

Enter stop spending into the formula...all problems solved at all levels.  Screaming goes away...eventually.  Seen it before. People do what they need to do when you stop feeding them.  They even help each other...gee wizz..think about it, our government even keeps us from helping each other by taxing and spending. Anyone ever think of that? I can't give my money to who I want because government gets first grabs and leaves me without as well. Go figure.

[ironglow]

  Biggest shell game going..
  When the Democrats must speak about spending..they don't admit it is just more spending..they call it "investing;..

  They will "invest" in food stamps, midnight basketball, charge cards for welfare recipients.  They may even 'invest' in "pre-school" brainwashing.   


  Jimster, you have nailed it !
  As I have posted elsewhere, charity and almshouses/poor farms used to be handled  locally,  At least no higher than county level.  People used to care for the truly needy among them  through churches and local/county taxes.  Just about 100% went to the needy.  The beauty of this plan was that it was handled locally, and most folks knew just who was needy and who was a lazy freeloader.
   Then, along comes big, fat state & federal governments...they tax away the portion people used to give to the needy and take it into the "big Govt" machinery.
  We all know that when big govt takes in  $100..it only spits back to the people about $35...if they're lucky.  Big, fat govt is really, the 800 pound gorilla in an otherwise orderly room.

[Casull]

So in the last 12 months they have had revenue of $42,588,000,000.00 thats 42 Billion 588 Million dollars folks... Now the state wants them to pay 60 Million which is 0.14088475626937164% of the total revenue for the last 12 months.

Matt, revenue is not, and has never been, the basis for taxation.

[ironglow]

The governmnet spends too much...primarily because it is at war continuously someplace.... the biggest expenditures are war expenditures. These expenditures aren't even oversighted or properly accounted. Rummie announced  $2.3 trillion, that's TRILLION, unaccounted pentacon funds on Sept 10, 2001. Nobody, has yet followed up on this HUGE overdraft.  WHY....?

If you're against massive unaccounted Gov spending, and against using Social Security to pay for perpetual war...then you would insist on the largest line items in the Budget; i.e. War Department expenditures oversighted and reduced....Are you willing to do that...??

If not keep voting for Obama..

..TM7

  TM;
  One of the 3 or 4 things the federal government is charged with doing is to "provide for the common defense"..and I am ready to start cutting that wherever it can safely be done..but remember, defense for a country is a necessity.
   Let's start with the totally swenseless, unconstitutional spending.. ACLU, Planned Parenthood, Federal Eanergy dept, Endowment for the arts, free college education for congressperson's kids, A plus retirement for members of congress that have served only one term  and multiple thousands of nonsensical "grants" to research depts of various schools etc...
      Wipe that all out.. THEN  take a look at the 3-4 Constitutionally required expenditures...

   BTW: The useless expenditures iunclude the $ 200,000,000 s day vacations in Spain for the "first family"..