Author Topic: Rossi Wizard so cheap will it kill the Handi? If Bud's has their way... (Read 5407 times)

briannmilewis · « **on:** March 30, 2011, 11:14:23 PM »

I know, we are getting tired of the Wizard Threat discussions, but Bud's prices are a serious market share grabber for Rossi.

Especially as I do not have an investment in Handis yet, the Wizard proposition for a single shot is now very, very compelling.

Wood stock 270 delivered for $258, and accessory barrels $136.

Put any Wizard barrel on the receiver as it is the equivalent of an SB2, and rechamber/rebarrel/stub whatever you like in non-magnum.

I am not an expert, but I am pretty sure that this kind of pricing and product flexibility is a real danger to the Handi.

A minor upgrade to new Handis to make their barrels interchangeable, and that would even the playing field again for new shooters.

Can anyone argue any different from a marketing point of view, not the Made In USA point of view.

If they shoot well, and there is no indication they do not, how can they not become very popular, very quickly, with such competitive pricing?

I hope to hear from Brian from Remington on this, they must be aware and contemplating the way forward.

Spanky · « **Reply #1 on:** March 31, 2011, 02:48:07 AM »

There ain't nothing wrong with the Rossi's. I've got two of 'em and they both shoot good.
I looked for a 7.62x39 Handi for a year and couldn't get my hands on one... I bought a new Rossi 7.62x39 in the box for $179.

The prices of the Handi's are gonna be the end of 'em. Guys are just asking ridiculous money for barrels and parts. (check out the recent classified ads

) $350 for a set that cost $115 new.

It's cheaper to buy a new Rossi rifle than it is to buy a barrel and stock for a Handi. It's killin' the used market for sure and guys don't do a thing to stop it.

Spanky

petemi · « **Reply #2 on:** March 31, 2011, 04:07:56 AM »

There's a new sporting goods store in Newberry, Mi, and he sells everything from bikes and basketballs to guns and ammo. In fact I found a jug of Hodgdon Tite Group there. I asked him if he had any Handis. He said no, just Rossis, but would order a Handi if I wanted one. That's gotta tell ya something. I was a snot butt Handiholic and told him I wouldn't own a Rossi. Taurus and Rossi quality in the past was not great. I think it has improved. BUT, WE NEED TO STOP BUYING IMPORTS AND GET U.S. JOBS BACK HOME.

Pete

garbhead · « **Reply #3 on:** March 31, 2011, 04:24:42 AM »

Quote from: Spanky on March 31, 2011, 02:48:07 AM

There ain't nothing wrong with the Rossi's. I've got two of 'em and they both shoot good.
I looked for a 7.62x39 Handi for a year and couldn't get my hands on one... I bought a new Rossi 7.62x39 in the box for $179.
The prices of the Handi's are gonna be the end of 'em. Guys are just asking ridiculous money for barrels and parts. (check out the recent classified ads ) $350 for a set that cost $115 new. It's cheaper to buy a new Rossi rifle than it is to buy a barrel and stock for a Handi. It's killin' the used market for sure and guys don't do a thing to stop it.

Spanky

you are probably referring to my ad for the versa pack for $350 . it may have cost 115 new, but I didn't buy it new..I doubt if it was ever that cheap...The $350 is just barely getting my money back..by the time I paid the bloated shipping many charge plus the high FFL transfer fees..
As long as the sellers are getting the prices for them that they are wanting then this is is a supply/demand thing...I see a lot of guys buying new guns and parting them out...that is capitalism I suppose...when prices get too high everyone will quit buying...
Before I ever bought a Handi, I looked at the Rossi's .... and although they are probably fine guns they are just too damned ugly to suit me

thejanitor · « **Reply #4 on:** March 31, 2011, 06:58:37 AM »

Our neighbor kid had a Rossi I shot it, it shot fine.... But it felt different and I didn't like the safety. Just my preference but I like the transfer bar and it is safer in my oppinion because your kid can't have the safety off and drop the gun and have it fire by striking the hammer. ( I know -no ones kid would ever do that....., but it does happen)
So Handi is what I like and if retailers drop them and we have what we have, then I guess thats the way it is. Sellers will ask what they want and we either will or won't buy them. But Rossi will have to make some other changes before one will find it's way into my safe. just my thoughts- thejanitor

PHATINJUN · « **Reply #5 on:** March 31, 2011, 07:05:50 AM »

Yep and we used to get gas for .85 cents a gallon. Kurt

Spanky · « **Reply #6 on:** March 31, 2011, 07:06:54 AM »

Quote from: garbhead on March 31, 2011, 04:24:42 AM

you are probably referring to my ad for the versa pack for $350 . it may have cost 115 new, but I didn't buy it new..I doubt if it was ever that cheap...The $350 is just barely getting my money back..by the time I paid the bloated shipping many charge plus the high FFL transfer fees..
As long as the sellers are getting the prices for them that they are wanting then this is is a supply/demand thing...I see a lot of guys buying new guns and parting them out...that is capitalism I suppose...when prices get too high everyone will quit buying...Before I ever bought a Handi, I looked at the Rossi's .... and although they are probably fine guns they are just too damned ugly to suit me

I was referring to your ad. The part of your post that I highlighted is exactly what I'm talking about. That's the problem in a nutshell... too many guys think like you and are just in it for the money. You guys with your "supply and demand" nonsense have got the prices raised up so high on pieces and parts that it's cheaper to buy a new gun. There are some cases where a barrel would be worth a premium... say a 7x64 or an ultracomp or something of that nature. Look at the ads now though... there are plain jane 223 barrels being listed for $150 bucks. Seriously?? That's a direct result of the "supply and demand" mentality.

The prices are too high plain and simple and the sooner that guys stop paying them the better off the used market will be.

Spanky

Spanky · « **Reply #7 on:** March 31, 2011, 07:11:37 AM »

Quote from: PHATINJUN on March 31, 2011, 07:05:50 AM

Yep and we used to get gas for .85 cents a gallon. Kurt

What caused gas prices to rise to the current level?
One word... GREED.
Same as what's happening to Handi parts... GREED.

Spanky

quickdtoo · « **Reply #8 on:** March 31, 2011, 07:16:42 AM »

Wood stocked Handis are only $2 more, H&Rs that have sights have metal sights, not the cheap plastic crap that come on the Wizards, and the H&R rifle is a nice looking rifle in comparison to the Wizard stock which looks wierd, much like the Encore stock. Their acc barrels don't come with a scope rail either, just the plastic sights.

I've only seen one other thread on the Wizard by actual owners, it's hard to tell if they have a viable future, but if the examples in the thread are typical, it isn't very promising, only time will tell tho, the FTF thing sure sounds familiar. $:-\$

Tim

http://www.shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=71620

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/index.php/cPath/36_262

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/index.php/cPath/351

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=wizard

Dinny · « **Reply #9 on:** March 31, 2011, 11:38:15 AM »

Quote from: Spanky on March 31, 2011, 02:48:07 AM

There ain't nothing wrong with the Rossi's. I've got two of 'em and they both shoot good.
I looked for a 7.62x39 Handi for a year and couldn't get my hands on one... I bought a new Rossi 7.62x39 in the box for $179.
The prices of the Handi's are gonna be the end of 'em. Guys are just asking ridiculous money for barrels and parts. (check out the recent classified ads ) $350 for a set that cost $115 new. It's cheaper to buy a new Rossi rifle than it is to buy a barrel and stock for a Handi. It's killin' the used market for sure and guys don't do a thing to stop it.
Spanky

TheCoachZed · « **Reply #10 on:** March 31, 2011, 01:35:58 PM »

Here in Canada, I can't get an accessory barrel for my SB2 receiver. I tried calling both the importer and the factory.

So, you can bet your backside that I will be far more interested in a Rossi - and so will everybody in all the other countries that are importing single shots. Sure, H&R sells a lot of guns in the US, but the world is an even larger market. I suspect I will buy a Wizard at some point if they finally make it to Canada.... but I can't see me ever buying another H&R unless it was ridiculously cheap.

Yak Angler · « **Reply #11 on:** March 31, 2011, 03:27:15 PM »

I am also from Canada and i was able to order a barrel from a member here at GBO and it made it through customs without any issues, i have researched the Wizard and they are not being sold in Canada by anyone and they are more expensive by about $ 50 - $ 75 bucks from what i can tell looking at MSRP's which is what most Canadian gun dealers sell everything for. I doubt we will see any Wizrads north or the border for years if ever. I am more than happy to stick with Handi's anyway. I would rather support north american workers and families with my money and stick with the likely better quality Handi considering they are both basically the same price. The only good quality imports are japanese vehicles everything else the rest of the world makes is total crap IMHO.

garbhead · « **Reply #12 on:** March 31, 2011, 05:39:56 PM »

So if someone is wanting a different caliber or just another one for whatever reason or no reason, he shouldn't buy one for $150 on here shipped from someone he has developed a trust in, where it has 70-80% chance of locking up good , when you could just order one from the factory, custom fitted to your receiver....
Yes $60-125 from factory + $15-20 to get your receiver to them + $19 shipping back to you + $25 fitting charge + sales tax...so actually about $125-190 from the factory..so what's the difference?
I welcome you to look back on anything I have sold on here and look at what I've paid my FFL and USPS and I guarantee you I have not made one dime on here..ask anyone I have dealt with and see if ANY of them felt like they got a raw deal from me...I'm not a greedy person...Hell I've shipped barrels and stuff to people before I even received their money...Try that on eBay...
I agree that a lot of stuff is too high and a lot of people are greedy...but...
Capitalism and supply/demand IS the USA...like I said , when s*** gets too high people will stop buying it..............peace, Brothers

wreckhog · « **Reply #13 on:** March 31, 2011, 05:45:11 PM »

It is nice to have options. Looked at a used Rossi 12 gauge turkey gun. Scope base, fiber optic sights, turkey choke tube, 23". $99 used, which is not so far from new. A steal compared to building a Tracker 1 clone. I have resolved to stop buying cool guns that never get used. So I passed.

Spanky · « **Reply #14 on:** March 31, 2011, 06:04:38 PM »

Quote from: garbhead on March 31, 2011, 05:39:56 PM

Yes $60-125 from factory + $15-20 to get your receiver to them + $19 shipping back to you + $25 fitting charge + sales tax...so actually about $125-190 from the factory..so what's the difference?

OK then take your USED barrel and figure it like this. $150
minus the cost to get you receiver to the factory -15
minus the shipping cost back to you -19
minus the fitting charge -25
minus the sales tax -8
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We end up with $83

That would seem about right wouldn't it?? A brand new barrel is $100 bucks or so (no extra fees) and a used one is worth about 85% of that. That's just simple economics and depreciation.

It seems though that alot of guys think they should also get the "extra charges" that the factory applies to a sale. WHY??
Please explain it to me why you are entitled to sales tax, a professional fitting charge, shipping costs to the factory, etc. WHY??
Are you gonna fit the barrel to my frame?? NO Are you legally allowed to charge sales tax?? NO Are you entitled to the fees it costs to ship my frame to the factory?? NO
So please explain it to me.

No "supply and demand" speeches either. A real answer as to why a seller is seemingly entitled to these extras for their USED barrel.

Spanky

torpedoman · « **Reply #15 on:** March 31, 2011, 06:08:10 PM »

a friend has one it is a good shooter and their barrels actually fit and interchange, and a 3 barreled set was cheaper than a handi I think it is called a Free market system were the best product for the money survives.

Spanky · « **Reply #16 on:** March 31, 2011, 06:17:59 PM »

Quote from: torpedoman on March 31, 2011, 06:08:10 PM

a friend has one it is a good shooter and their barrels actually fit and interchange, and a 3 barreled set was cheaper than a handi I think it is called a Free market system were the best product for the money survives.

Exactly right.

Spanky

cjrjck · « **Reply #17 on:** March 31, 2011, 06:23:20 PM »

Quote from: Spanky on March 31, 2011, 06:04:38 PM

Quote from: garbhead on March 31, 2011, 05:39:56 PM
Yes $60-125 from factory + $15-20 to get your receiver to them + $19 shipping back to you + $25 fitting charge + sales tax...so actually about $125-190 from the factory..so what's the difference?

OK then take your USED barrel and figure it like this. $150
minus the cost to get you receiver to the factory -15
minus the shipping cost back to you -19
minus the fitting charge -25
minus the sales tax -8
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We end up with $83

That would seem about right wouldn't it?? A brand new barrel is $100 bucks or so (no extra fees) and a used one is worth about 85% of that. That's just simple economics and depreciation.

It seems though that alot of guys think they should also get the "extra charges" that the factory applies to a sale. WHY??
Please explain it to me why you are entitled to sales tax, a professional fitting charge, shipping costs to the factory, etc. WHY??
Are you gonna fit the barrel to my frame?? NO Are you legally allowed to charge sales tax?? NO Are you entitled to the fees it costs to ship my frame to the factory?? NO
So please explain it to me.

No "supply and demand" speeches either. A real answer as to why a seller is seemingly entitled to these extras for their USED barrel.

Spanky

I know what you are trying to say but the problem is that a brand new barrel does not cost $100 from H&R. You can't buy one that way as far as I know. Even if they would allow you to just buy a barrel and it cost $20 to ship, it would be $120 barrel. But the truth is the only way to get a barrel from the factory I know of is to pay all those fees and services and so those costs are built into the final cost of a barrel. As Tim said before, you are looking at $160 or more. That is what a plain Jain barrel is worth new. What it is worth used is up to the buyer. I prefer good used barrels to new sometimes.

garbhead · « **Reply #18 on:** March 31, 2011, 06:24:54 PM »

I am not saying that anyone is "entitled" to anything...all I'm saying is what difference should it make to you if I want to give $150 to JoeBlow or to H&R, 1871, Inc. or Rossi, Inc from Brazil....it's still gonna cost exactly the same amount either way...and your economics lesson resulting in the $83 value makes no sense whatsoever...
Plus obviously everything does not depreciate in value...my Dad bought a Remington 700 30-06 at Kmart in 1976 for $129.99 and fired it about 5 times... you think he should sell it for $50 because of depreciation when a number of people would give him $400-500 for it?

And this is all I'm gonna say about the subject, but feel free to rant all night about it if you choose....that's what America is all about..

Spanky · « **Reply #19 on:** March 31, 2011, 06:32:55 PM »

Quote from: garbhead on March 31, 2011, 06:24:54 PM

I am not saying that anyone is "entitled" to anything...all I'm saying is what difference should it make to you if I want to give $150 to JoeBlow or to H&R, 1871, Inc. or Rossi, Inc from Brazil....it's still gonna cost exactly the same amount either way...and your economics lesson resulting in the $83 value makes no sense whatsoever...Plus obviously everything does not depreciate in value...my Dad bought a Remington 700 30-06 at Kmart in 1976 for $129.99 and fired it about 5 times... you think he should sell it for $50 because of depreciation when a number of people would give him $400-500 for it?

And this is all I'm gonna say about the subject, but feel free to rant all night about it if you choose....that's what America is all about..

Fair enough. Explain it to me then. Why are you entitled to the extra fees?
Just an honest answer. WHY?
If it's just because you think you deserve it then say so.

If it's because you think your barrel is better than a brand new one then say so.

There's gotta be a reason.
I ain't trying to argue but I would like to understand the entitlement mentality.

Spanky

briannmilewis · « **Reply #20 on:** March 31, 2011, 06:59:05 PM »

The Wizard barrel interchangeability answers the handi used and new barrel issue.

A used Wizard barrel will always cost less than a new one. Doesn't cost much to ship a barrel anywhere and there is no manufacturer, FFL or custom fitting in between you and your new barrel. That is a big difference with the Handi experience. If you look at the Wizard barrel lineup, there are some obvious gaps compared to the Handi. They are missing 22 Hornet which can be rechambered into 221 FB, 22 Rem Jet, 219 Bee etc. They are also missing 204 Ruger, 7mm-08, 25-06, 280 Rem, 30-30 Win, 444 Marlin, 450 Marlin. Heck, just buy the HR in that case or participate in the HR accessory barrel program. That way you don't have to pay for a rebore or stub job. You get to maximize every dollar you spend on your HRs or Wizards. Best of both worlds!

Also, a Wizard receiver will never cost more than a new rifle less the cost of a new barrel, for the exact same reasons. The convenience of being able to order a new or used barrel from anyone, or any place, without having to send any of your receivers anywhere, has got to be a major consideration too. No SB1, SB2, shotgun and rimfire receivers <-- please correct me if there are not four different receivers in the new Handi universe, but you get the simplicity of the Wizard one receiver fits all.

I am sure Wizard engineering is up to date, simply by the fact that they must be in order to have truly interchangeable barrels.

I would buy a rifle that looked like tree stump if it fit me, was built well, gave me value for money and did what I wanted it to do with decent accuracy. Apart from looks, that would be the same criteria I would use for a Handi or any other purchase.

I agree with help keeping manufacturing jobs in the US. Trouble is if an imported item offers value in many aspects, the locals need to wake up, and go head to head. Cars are a good example and now all cars are built better than before competition from imports. Hopefully Handi will adjust their line to match the Wizard features and we could have real marketplace competition for our dollars and loyalties.

LabRat2k3 · « **Reply #21 on:** April 01, 2011, 12:13:50 AM »

I have to agree with you on that statement. I have to work hard for my money, so if you want it you will have to earn it just like I did. If products are equal for near the same price then by all means I will take the American made product, but don't expect me to pay extra and get less just because where it came from. Maybe they should send me a coupon for free shipping and fitting of my next barrel to support me, an American worker.

336SC · « **Reply #22 on:** April 01, 2011, 01:40:44 AM »

Quote from: PHATINJUN on March 31, 2011, 07:05:50 AM

Yep and we used to get gas for .85 cents a gallon. Kurt

When I was dating my wife it was 27.9 cents a gallon! Oops, I'm giving away my age!
336SC

LONGTOM · « **Reply #23 on:** April 01, 2011, 03:38:08 AM »

Let me try and calm this down a little.
The reason that some barrels bring the prices that they do is:

1 They are no longer available from the factory, so if you want one you will have to pay whatever the going rate is.
You are always free to pass that one up in hopes of finding one cheaper.

2 Some people want something so badly that they will pay extra just to get one, their choice.

3 You can't buy a barrel from the factory for the price stated of 80 to 100 bucks, they won't sell them that way.
You have to pay their extra fees or you don't get one.

4 In a free market society the seller is free to ask any price he wishes, if the buyer is willing to pay that price then who are we to say
that is wrong.

5 If someone feels a barrel is to high then don't buy it, plain and simple.

Now as to the Rossi thing, I have owned one, it was a piece of junk.
I will proable never own another.

This is just like the barrel prices in question.
Some people feel they are to high and won't pay that much, some will.
Some people think the Rossi is a good gun, some don't.
Based on the one I had, I don't!

Just my thoughts on these subjects.

LONGTOM

bhhad25 · « **Reply #24 on:** April 01, 2011, 04:40:11 AM »

Spanky,

Get me a new factory 357 barrel, and I'll send you the $100. I'd really appreciate it.

Thanks

bajabill · « **Reply #25 on:** April 01, 2011, 05:37:17 AM »

I have been out of the HR barrel market for a while now, its up to $160 ish to get a new barrel from the factory now??

I just may have to sell a barrel, the market is right....

spanky, by your logic, you missed a few things, the barrel is not even that much, some of the 83 bucks should be attributed to electicity, building roof repair, janitorial costs of the factory, company picnic = bringing the true cost of a new barrel down to 47.50

I dont care how the seller (or the manufacturer) comes up with their price,actually I would rather them not try to fool me with all of the add ons, the bottom line price is the bottom line price in my book. I take it or leave it from there. I really find it insulting to advertise a $100 item price, and then at the check out process add in a bunch of extras. Have some sack and advertize the final price in big bold text up front.

ps, for 100 shipped?? I will let the barrel collect dust, the whole selling process is a PITA as far as I am concerned.

oldsoldja · « **Reply #26 on:** April 01, 2011, 05:47:32 AM »

If budsguns sells for 260 to 280 shipped, and add the ffl transfer to get 290.00 to 310.00.

then sell the cheap pallet set for 50.00 not including shipping, then sell the receiver for 100.00 not including shipping, and youll have a new barrel for140.00 to 160.00

Used barrels after shipping is deducted are 65.00 to 170.00 , used are a good value, I dont see any greed or gouging in those prices.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #27 on:** April 01, 2011, 06:22:22 AM »

'Entitlement mentality' implies that you owe me something even if I dont deserve it or did anything for it.
Free enterprise imlpies that if I have something to sell, and you want it, and we agree on a price (whatever that price is) we are free men with the right to do so; nobodies business. I dont owe you a thing for what you agree to. This is the way 'gentlemen's aqgreements' have been made for centuries.
Big world of difference that.

oldsoldja · « **Reply #28 on:** April 01, 2011, 08:05:46 AM »

Just because somethings older than brand new doesnt mean it depreciated. That only goes for appliances and cars.

Spanky · « **Reply #29 on:** April 01, 2011, 01:01:18 PM »

Quote from: oldsoldja on April 01, 2011, 08:05:46 AM

Just because somethings older than brand new doesnt mean it depreciated. That only goes for appliances and cars.

I certainly doesn't mean it's worth more than new either.

Is a 243 Handi made in 1996 worth more than a new one? I didn't think so.

Spanky