Only Factory Ammo for Self Defense?????

[Wyo. Coyote Hunter]

  One of my friends and I were visiting the other day about self defense weapons...he usually carries some type of semi-auto, and has real concerns about individuals giving him problems..as for myself, I carry on the off chance of someone trying to rob or assult either my girl friend or I..we live in a very  low crime area..with my little model 60 Smith, I have been loading Rem. 125 grain hollowpoints in 38 spl. plus p loads...I happened to mention at times I carry a .44 mt. gun or 45 colt in Ruger BLK. for defense and these are loaded with handloads...nothing extremely powerful..the .44 is usually loaded with 44spl ..loads and a 210 grain Rem. hollow point,  and the .45 Colt with a 250 grain EXTP with a medium load of Red Dot or Unique...My pal said, if I had to defend myself with a revolver loaded with handloads, the lawyers would make out I had a special load just to use on criminals..and make it look  like I was anxious to use it on a person...something I never thought about...He said he had read of many court cases where handloads were used and the shooter, even though legal, was make out to be the bad guy...Those that have experience, or know of someone who has had experince with this situation, what is the deal? Are handloads in my revolvers setting me up to take a fall on the off chance I have to defend my girl friend or myself??

[Empty Quiver]

You will find the often quoted" I carry what my local PD carries " . This is promoted by Mas Ayoob he seems to know about that which he speaks. The handload thing is also an Ayoob deal as far as I can tell.

If nothing else you will make your defense easier by carrying a commercial load. At a buck a pop, I don't run much through my carry gun, enough to satisfy me they run fine. What's $23.00 worth of ammo if you are getting ready to hire a defense att'y?

[SHOOTALL]

I agree with Empty Quiver but would add if your gun is loaded with loads you rolled for a reason you may have a case. Say you were hunting with said handgun or returning from the target range ? I always use factory ammo for SD but then one never knows where one will be attacked .

[Savage]

Man, is this a topic of frequent debate!!
Ask your friend for link to his source of information on these cases where reloaded ammo was an issue in a self defense event. There may be some, but I've not been able to find one, nor has anyone been able to provide it.

Having said that, I carry factory ammo in my defensive guns for a number of reasons. Mainly because I can't load anything better. Yeah, my hand loads are reliable and powerful enough, but with the powders/components available to the industry, performance can be optimized. It's a small edge I know, but an edge just the same. Then there's that little legal matter of hand loads vs factory for personal defense. I don't think it would be an issue, but I'm a cautious man. Like a previous poster, I find the cost of a few boxes of factory ammo insignificant compared to the potential legal costs involved in a civil case.
Reloads can be tailored to closely duplicate bullet weight and velocity of the factory stuff for practice purposes.

Savage

[SHOOTALL]

'Savage I posted some over a year ago . You can look back if you like . One involved a police officer who's wife commited suicide with some light loads he had made , it was felt he shot her because if the gun had been close like a suicide shooting it would have left more powder burn/residue . They were articles in several magazines listing other shootings . Check Massad Ayoob's web sight or Legal Force Insitute.

[williamlayton]

I still have yet to hear of a real & valid case where what kind of load was ever brought into the mix.
Blessings

[SHOOTALL]

I still have yet to hear of a real & valid case where what kind of load was ever brought into the mix.
Blessings

Check out the old post , I note magazine articles.

[Savage]

Thanks for the "heads up" Shootall. Doubt I'll take the time to look the thread up as I carry factory ammo anyway. I would suggest anyone wanting to carry reloaded ammo research the subject thoroughly before making their ammo decision. Actual case history would be a good conformation. Magazine articles are not a good source for legal decisions unless they reference searchable case history.
Savage   

[mcwoodduck]

I keep factory ammo in my house and self protection guns for the simple reason.
I load target ammo.
either FMJ or lead and they are more for knocking down steel plates or poking clean holes in paper than anything else.
When I look at hunting or house ammo I find it is easier to buy a hundred rounds, make sure the gun feeds and functions, get some trigger time with them and then keep them for hunting or self defense.
By the time I buy a bunch of bullets designed for self defense or hunting I am at about the same $ amount as if I just bought loaded ammo that was desinged for the job.
Then add in the "where was my head" factor to loaded ammo and while it has been less than a few rounds over the thousands I have loaded.  I have still forgotten to stick in a new primer, forgot to remove the old primer, forgot powder, only partial load of powder dropped, did not get the crimp right and the case would not chamber.  ALL things I think are bad in a self defense situation.
So far I have not had one of the higher dollar self defense or the hunting ammo not chamber, not fire, or not cycle the action.
Now if I bought the best gun I could for my protection, why would I not also spend for the best ammo I could that was designed for the task?

[jimster]

I still have yet to hear of a real & valid case where what kind of load was ever brought into the mix.
Blessings

Me either.  I would suppose the first case anyone ever hears of might be in one of those states where you can't defend yourself anyway.
So it would be a mute point there anyways.  I carry handloads in any revolver I have, it's all I shoot in revolvers.  My carry auto gets factory.

the lawyers would make out I had a special load just to use on criminals 

Everyone uses special loads.  They sell special loads in stores just for criminals.  Those store bought loads will blow a hole in a criminal you can't sew up.  They are designed to kill and cause massive tissue damage.

"well judge, I down loaded with handloads, just couldn't see blowing a hole that big in anyone with those "federal agent" loads they are selling at the store.  Wanna see a pic of the hole those store bought loads make compared to mine?" 

No wonder there has never been a case I could find.  It's either legal to defend yourself with lethal force, or it's not, anytime you wind up in court arguing about ammo or what kind of hammer it's because there was a question on defending yourself in the first place.  I have never heard of a case where a prosecutor said..."yup, would have been self defense except for that ammo"

[williamlayton]

Seems I remember that old thread--was a long one.
I really don't remember anything that was more than theory and rumor.
Blessings

[Brett]

I would think any lawyer worth his salt would squash that argument.    After all what's the difference between loading up with Hornady Critical Defense or Winchester Super-X Silvertips vs your home rolled defense ammo?   The purpose of all of them is the same... eliminate an eminent threat to your or a loved ones life.   

[sidewinder319]

A fellow I know ended up in court.  His problem was not bullets. They really nailed him on the gun magazines he read. They brought in piles of Guns &  Ammo and quoted handgun shooting articles.  They used this to show he was a violent man who studied hows to kill with a handgun.  No, he did not go to jail, but he will be years paying off the "Bottom Feeders' Who defended him.

[Pat/Rick]

Praying I never have to be in the position............. I'll take Massad Ayoobs advice and carry factory ammo, he is a paid expert witness. I really should ask the deputies I know what flavor the SD is using. I have heard from a LEO/criminal law teacher that just a defense trial will cost you around ten grand. Wouldn't hurt to have your ducks in a row.

[SHOOTALL]

I would think any lawyer worth his salt would squash that argument.    After all what's the difference between loading up with Hornady Critical Defense or Winchester Super-X Silvertips vs your home rolled defense ammo?   The purpose of all of them is the same... eliminate an eminent threat to your or a loved ones life.

Its all about court room showmanship. If you can be painted as wanting to shoot someone in the minds of the jury it can be a lie but it will hurt your case.
As for real cases not articles ... it was an article that was case historys of 7-8 real world cases . Several were cases where people went to jail and are still there.
Remember wisdom is learning from others mistakes not making them yourself 

[bilmac]

It probably makes a difference where you live. If half the people on a jury were men in Wyo, then about half of the jury would be pretty familiar with why I had handloads in my gun. If I lived in New York City I might want to carry a club for self defense and never go out at night.

[mcwoodduck]

I would think any lawyer worth his salt would squash that argument.    After all what's the difference between loading up with Hornady Critical Defense or Winchester Super-X Silvertips vs your home rolled defense ammo?   The purpose of all of them is the same... eliminate an eminent threat to your or a loved ones life.

One of the problem I see is the political prosicuter like the one in the NC Lacrosse team rapes that knew the kids did nothing wrong but went after the kids to further his political carear.
If you were involved in a high profile justified shoot with home rolled ammo what could they make of it?
You loaded special ammo that .... was made to ....
And while your lawyer may make arguments to squash it, remember a jury awarded some lady millions from McDonalds because she spilled coffee on her self by not putting the top back on after adding sugar or cream.
Do you really think some jury that is not firearm savy will buy the prosicuter's story of you rolled your own to kill, or maim, or what have you as opposed to using the best commercial ammo that has the highest one shot stop.  One shot stop, rather than one shot kill or maim.  Or worse if you had used one of the commercial one shot stops you would not have needed to shoot 6 times causing pain and suffering on your victom. (the same poor youth the was waving a gun at you and your family, that was influenced by the gang but was not a memeber, exclude his 5 years in Juvi.)

[coyotejoe]

Our local small town cops buy their own ammo and carry whatever the want. I don't know if any carry handloads, probably not. I did the reloading for one small department for a couple of years but it was only target ammo for practice and qualification. It was downloaded for the indoor range and while most of the Glock pistols in .40 and .45 caliber handled it OK it became apparent that some didn't clean and lube their guns and the light loads had many malfunctions for those.
 Anyhow, to find out what the cops carry you'd have to survey each individual cop and that would only apply to this week, next week could be different and none of them carry .44 specials anyhow.
There I see another advantage to my practice of loading full wadcutters for defensive loads. Any cop will tell a prosecutor that wadcutters are light loads for target shooting, never knowing how hot I load them.

[cwlongshot]

Any cop will tell a prosecutor that wadcutters are light loads for target shooting, never knowing how hot I load them.

Just a word of warning to you or if you already know. Anyone thinking of tying this...

BEWARE, DO NOT HOT LOAD A HBWC LEAD BULLET!!!  If you want to heavy load this profile, use a DEWC. the hollow base can create some real problems when hot loaded!!!

I live in a VERY LIBERAL state. I prefer to only use factory ammo for personal defence. YES a bottom feeder could argue and convince a jury of about anything. Remember DOUBT is all that's needed. Kinda scary...

If anyone has ever taken a personal defence class in line with Massad Ayoob's, You will have a far greater understanding of many aspects of personal protection. Suffice it to say, many peoples whole world and the way they view it will be forever changed.

CW

[Old Syko]

The funny part of this thread and all others like it is that no one ever quotes anyone but Ayoob (or his followers) as though he were the know all end all on the subject.  I still contend nobody, including Ayoob, has ever offered that first verifiable crumb of evidence that shows handload use has ever been an issue in a proper self defense shooting.

Carry whatever your gun has proven itself function well with and whatever you use on a regular basis.  Anything else is nothing but yet another fly in the ointment.  If you have to shoot, the ammo you use is the least of your worries.  If you're in one of the more communist states it's likely not going to matter what you use. 

[jimster]

If you're in one of the more communist states it's likely not going to matter what you use. 

That's really what it boils down to. Our state passed the self defence act.  Some states pass laws that are the opposite, and they can do anything they want to you, same as the criminals.  Just depends on where you live. It is also possible to have a bad prosecutor in a self defense state, we are lucky we have a good one here in our area. 

[SHOOTALL]

The funny part of this thread and all others like it is that no one ever quotes anyone but Ayoob (or his followers) as though he were the know all end all on the subject.  I still contend nobody, including Ayoob, has ever offered that first verifiable crumb of evidence that shows handload use has ever been an issue in a proper self defense shooting.

Carry whatever your gun has proven itself function well with and whatever you use on a regular basis.  Anything else is nothing but yet another fly in the ointment.  If you have to shoot, the ammo you use is the least of your worries.  If you're in one of the more communist states it's likely not going to matter what you use.

I posted several a while back , I listed where you could search for them if you really want to look them up . So in fact they have been noted. Ayoob is quoted because he is reconized as one of if not the best profesional witness on the subject nation wide. Why not qoute the best ?

[Spirithawk]

So basicly the idea is; It's ok to defend yourself, just as long as you give the bad guy the oportunity to kill you for your trying? Pardon me if I'm wrong but you don't shoot someone to make friends with them, you do so to END a threat to your, or an inocent victom's, life. Wounding someone does not end a threat it instead is much more likely to increase it. So explain to me just where is the sense in the logic that says it's wrong to carry a weapon properly loaded to end said threat quickly and decisively and it's better to carry a weaker load, and give the guy an even chance to kill you, so as not to be accused of carrying a lethal load? That's like saying it's ok to go swimming....just don't get wet! 

[Mohawk]

At least in TX, deadly force is deadly force. Nothing specified. Calibers, vehicles, butcher knives..... it doesnt matter. A person defending themselves either has the cause, or does not. The matter of the object to administor deadly force is of no statutory description.

[bilmac]

There are two ways the legal system can hurt you. Criminal justice requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt to convict, and for the most part prosecutors are probably just honest hard working folks too.

Then there is the civil system where lawsuits are filed to extract money from you. That is where the ambulance chasers reside. Proof has to be only to be the preponderance of evidence. There is big money to be made so a good share of the lawyers aren't of the highest moral quality. Many of today's problems are caused by greedy lawyers filing lawsuits.

 One thing saves many folks like us from this kind of "justice", you can't get blood from a turnip. I don't know if I have insurance that would protect me if I were sued because I had "winged" somebody in self defense, but perhaps I would be better off without  insurance that would. The insurance might be just enough incentive for some poor struggling ambulance chaser lawyer to go after me. Without the added profit maybe they would leave a guy alone. 

[coyotejoe]

I guess that's like the "beware of dog" sign on a gate. I appreciate the warning but if someone enters the property and gets bitten a lawyer will argue that the sign is evidence that person knew they were harboring a vicious animal.

[mechanic]

I almost always shoot only handloads for everything.  A lawyer could argue you bought those "self defense" rounds just for the purpose of inflicting more damage.  They can and will argue just about anything.

I handload and trade brass and bullets with a couple of cops.  They use my handloads in their personal weapons.  Whats the difference?

Much ado about nothing.

Ben

[parkergunshop]

Ok, I was just lectured on another forum for expressing a different opinion, but since forums are for the expression of different opinions and viewpoints here are my two or three cents worth.

!.  I only use Factory Ammo in my .38 Special, 9M/M or 45 ACP and 44 Special Plus P loads in my 44 Mag for self defense use.

2. I handload for most target shooting, but test my factory self defense loads on targets before using them to be sure that they function and hit to the point of aim.

2.  I for the most part trust my handloads, but would never trust someone else's for self defense use.

I once had a squib load in my .357 Mag when deer hunting, glad that my target could not shoot back.   It is really distressful to hear a primer pop with no powder ignition from a deer stand much less when one's life is threatened.

[Wyo. Coyote Hunter]

  Mechanic, While I don't load for cops are anyone else, most of my pistols, except my 40 and my girl friends 9mm, are mostly loaded with handloads..often medium loads for the caliber...my only true defense weapon I guess would be my model 60, and I do load it with Rem. fact. 38's, but often when heading for the hills it is loaded with handloads for plinking..sometimes they remain in the gun until shot, or for some reason I change back...this issue is something I never gave a thought too until my pal brought it up...I felt safe having handloads in my pistols as they are mostly for shooting, hunting, and very low on the scale is selfdefense..I keep a shotgun by the bed incase of an intruder, but really it is quite rare here....I have never heard of a case like that and have lived here 40 years...BUT I do travel quite a bit often though unfriendly countries like Ohio, West Va. and Ill...I guess I will be sure an have some fact. stuff while going through those places, but really a short 12 bore would likely be a better defense weapon due to the laws on handgun carry in those countries.....The imput from everyone is very informative..much I think depends on the state in which we live or travel.....

[Mikey]

Only reloads for personal defense and hunting, with a visual confirmation of properly seated primers, powder charges and bullet seating and a hands on verification that all rounds chamber/feed and that accuracy is consistent.  I have never had a round that I have personally reloaded in this manner fail to detonate and do its job. 

I have however had the misfortune to once trust a progressive reloading set-up where I could not visually confirm consistent powder charges only to have 50% of the round fail to exit the barrel and usually lock up the revolver in the process - dang good thing I took them to the range for testing or I woulda been one very unhappy guy. 

I still have the one Winchester 30-06 cartridge that failed to detonate and 3 Remington 38 spl rounds with deep primer indents and the bullet still in the case.

BTW - have not ever heard or read of any court case in which the bullet fired from the gun was ever brought into question, except in the writings of massad ayoob and he has never provided any citations or specific references to support his claims nor answered any questions from any corner and let's not forget that he gets paid by those who offer guns and ammo for his testing so he is definately going to hype those products.  And does anyone know if ayoob ever reloaded or hunted or is his background strictly LE???