Author Topic: Only Factory Ammo for Self Defense?????  (Read 5747 times)

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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Only Factory Ammo for Self Defense?????
« Reply #30 on: April 04, 2011, 02:34:26 AM »
Look up New Jersey v. Daniel N. Bias if you want a case to read.
Also the use of hand loads may play a more damaging part in the civil case.
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline cwlongshot

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Re: Only Factory Ammo for Self Defense?????
« Reply #31 on: April 04, 2011, 02:36:48 AM »
Look guys, for the most part I completely agree with your line of thinking. But we are rational minded conservative thinkers. Thinking as the whack a doo anti gun people do will NEVER make sence to us. Read the papers, open your eyes ANYTHING is possible. So as we carry a gun to protect life we must act in a manor to protect against this newer threat. The unedjucated ( about firearms) anti gun liberals. Remember they firmly believe they are doing what they do cause we do not. We keep to our selves, do what we feel is right and protect our own. One of the biggest ways we accomplish this is by minding our own business.   This is the polar opposite to there thinking.
Bickering amongst ourselves serves THEM not us!

If one of us wants to carry factory for what ever reason so be it. If another only wants handloads for what ever reason so be that. Until WE stand together and voice our MAJORITY pro gun opinions, we will be saddled with CYA thinking.

CW
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Offline Wyo. Coyote Hunter

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Re: Only Factory Ammo for Self Defense?????
« Reply #32 on: April 04, 2011, 05:23:00 AM »
 ;) cw, I don't look on this as a division among us, just the opposite, trying to make us trouble free in a crooked world...Shootall mentioned a case in NJ as support for fact. ammo...here I would agree it is the best path, but in NJ is anything for selfdefense really safe....???????  A discussion never hurt anyone..this is something I NEVER  gave a thought about until my pal mentioned it...as I said, self defense against another human is low on my list of things to worry about..I am aware of the possible dangers, but in my environment a vicious dog, mt. lion, or something similar is more likely than a crazed druggie..BUT as I also stated, I do travel quite a bit, and in other states laws must be considered...For me this has b een quite informative...things I never thought of were brought up..but one thing I noticed is folks from more conservative states seem less aware or concerned with the issue than someone say from Calif...

Offline Spirithawk

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Re: Only Factory Ammo for Self Defense?????
« Reply #33 on: April 04, 2011, 05:56:30 AM »
Bottom line, I'd rather be hurt by the law....which I can recover from...than be killed by a criminal....which dead is dead!

Offline kid buckskin

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Re: Only Factory Ammo for Self Defense?????
« Reply #34 on: April 05, 2011, 07:45:17 PM »
My local ccw instructor told me about two cases that where tried in court with in the last five years, both cases where slightly differnt in regard of pistol type, cal and what manor they had been used.     The one factor that was the same was both had reloads, the prosecution went for excessive force and made there case
Damn lawyers will do almost anything to win even if its not right

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Only Factory Ammo for Self Defense?????
« Reply #35 on: April 06, 2011, 02:09:26 AM »
We can argure the point here with out worry but who in their right mind would take the chance knowing it might hurt them in court ?
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline cwlongshot

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Re: Only Factory Ammo for Self Defense?????
« Reply #36 on: April 06, 2011, 02:56:02 AM »
We can argure the point here with out worry but who in their right mind would take the chance knowing it might hurt them in court ?

Thats the point I was trying to make. If possible, remove doubt. Keep the focus on the SOB that caused you or I to fear for our lives and shoot his sorry arse!

Thank you!

CW
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Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Only Factory Ammo for Self Defense?????
« Reply #37 on: April 06, 2011, 07:26:17 AM »
We can argure the point here with out worry but who in their right mind would take the chance knowing it might hurt them in court ?
With 90% + of the group here
He needed killing defense would work.
Show his police file, gang tats, prison tats, and almost everyone here would say. 
"sorry you had to shoot him, but you did the right thing."" you protected your self and others and now he can not terrorize anyone elses family"
And not ask why you were carrying a gun, not ask what bullets you had in the gun, or how you feel or try to make the little (grown up, family unfreindy word for dog poop) into a saint, blaming Viloent video games, rap music, or movies for his behavior, that was in the wrong place at the wrong time and your racist views made you shoot him.
And the same group of voters that ellected Obama are going to be the ones on your jury.

Offline stimpylu32

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Re: Only Factory Ammo for Self Defense?????
« Reply #38 on: April 16, 2011, 05:52:06 AM »
I carry only Handloads in all of my CCW weapons , Why? Because I carry the same ammo that I train with , I KNOW that EVERY time I pull the trigger I get the same results .

I don't need to have to remember , do the factory rounds hit high or low , do they recoil more or less than my rounds .

I want to know that if I have to pull the trigger that the round will go and do what I expect it to do - plain & simple , when seconds count , the cops are only minuets away !

stimpy
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Offline streak

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Re: Only Factory Ammo for Self Defense?????
« Reply #39 on: April 16, 2011, 08:40:45 AM »
It would really be interesting for some of the lawyers on this site to chime with their thoughts on this matter or even a judge if one is on this site!
It just seems to me if you are protecting your family, yourself, or bystander from a life threatening situation and use of deadly force eliminates the threat, then what difference does it make if you used a factory load or reload in your gun. Let`s just forget pistols for a moment and say we reload shotgun shells with blackpowder using used factory cases from blackpowder shotgun shells. These reloads are loaded with buckshot  and we happen to have to defend ourselves and have to shoot a bad guy with these loads. These loads perform to the same specs as factory loads!
Now are we going to say these reloads are illegal or were custom reloaded for the strict reason to shoot and kill someone?
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Only Factory Ammo for Self Defense?????
« Reply #40 on: April 18, 2011, 02:53:05 AM »
I carry only Handloads in all of my CCW weapons , Why? Because I carry the same ammo that I train with , I KNOW that EVERY time I pull the trigger I get the same results .

I don't need to have to remember , do the factory rounds hit high or low , do they recoil more or less than my rounds .

I want to know that if I have to pull the trigger that the round will go and do what I expect it to do - plain & simple , when seconds count , the cops are only minuets away !

stimpy
That said have you given thought to how you would defend their use if the need arose to do so in court ?
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline williamlayton

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Re: Only Factory Ammo for Self Defense?????
« Reply #41 on: April 18, 2011, 03:08:20 AM »
Simply---I loaded only to maim and wound---I really can't understand how that killed him---must have been an accident. ;)
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Only Factory Ammo for Self Defense?????
« Reply #42 on: April 18, 2011, 03:14:17 AM »
That should go well with the jury.  ::)

But it points to the unnessary chance one takes. As for pratice  my sights are set for carry ammo , I use the same sight picture and know how far off pratice ammo is if any at self defense distances. I doubt I would lose any time .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline mechanic

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Re: Only Factory Ammo for Self Defense?????
« Reply #43 on: April 18, 2011, 12:41:46 PM »
The lawyers could as well make the case that you bought that special self defense ammo just because you planned to shoot somebody.  They can postulate and will postulate anything in a hearing.....it all comes down to how well it plays with the jury, and thats about as predictable as an earthquake.  If you do use a weapon, you will most likely have to defend that choice no matter what.  If you don't, the bad guy will probably serve a few months.....

Ben
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Offline cwlongshot

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Re: Only Factory Ammo for Self Defense?????
« Reply #44 on: April 18, 2011, 12:54:18 PM »
The lawyers could as well make the case that you bought that special self defense ammo just because you planned to shoot somebody.  They can postulate and will postulate anything in a hearing.....it all comes down to how well it plays with the jury, and that's about as predictable as an earthquake.  If you do use a weapon, you will most likely have to defend that choice no matter what.  If you don't, the bad guy will probably serve a few months.....

Ben

You are correct Ben.
  But defending your choice of ammo from a factory iselection s a defensible position. Defending your own loads is self serving, unfounded and definitely subject to question. Not to me, mine you, but to a slime ball Lawyer. There are also better factory ammo choices than others. Buying what your local police use would be good choice and ULTRA PENETRATOR or EXPLOSIVE EXPANSION bullets not so much...

Dont get me wrong here, I don't agree with all of this. I simply know it is the way it is.

CW
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Offline stimpylu32

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Re: Only Factory Ammo for Self Defense?????
« Reply #45 on: April 18, 2011, 04:41:42 PM »
My take on the whole Factory / Handload thing is that at some point every aspect of the shooting will be brought into the case , the type of weapon , cal of weapon , the fact that I even had a weapon , and mostly Why did I have a weapon .

So my responce to all of these is that , I was FORCED to defend myself or others with deadly force and I used the best tools at my disposal at the time .

stimpy
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Offline trotterlg

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Re: Only Factory Ammo for Self Defense?????
« Reply #46 on: April 18, 2011, 08:12:41 PM »
This is a very serious game to play.  You should do nothing to leave even the slightest chink in your armor, even if you have to give up some performance or abilities.  I don't even carry 22 short hollow points in my little NAA revolver, just factory round nose, it just isn't worth any chance that it could be used against you.  The advertisement for self defence ammo will likely be read in court, it will not help you any if it says things like "explosive", "distructive", "deadly", "huge wound channel" or any other discriptive violent things.  This is just the way things are now, test them or challange them in court if you like, but I want every thing going for me, on my side, if I have to defend my self after the fact.  Larry
A gun is just like a parachute, if you ever really need one, nothing else will do.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Only Factory Ammo for Self Defense?????
« Reply #47 on: April 19, 2011, 02:07:52 AM »
I would suggest that you will be judged by the standard of did you do what any prudent person would do under the same circumstances. Making sure one has done so seems smart . The closer you are to what is accepted in your area , police being the standard ,the better you should fare.
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Mikey

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Re: Only Factory Ammo for Self Defense?????
« Reply #48 on: April 19, 2011, 02:35:18 AM »
OK, I read ayoob's brief on the nj vs bias case and it didn't have a damn thing to do with a defensive street shooting.  ayoob's first statement about the case in Lesson#1 is:  don't leave a loaded gun around someone who is suicidal - well, duh!

As I read it, the only problem with using the reloaded ammo is that it did not leave a signature powder burn on the wife's head and the prosecuter took that as a murder, not a suicide and again, it had nothing to do with a defensive street shooting.

And again, what you have is a bunch of ayoob blather.  Don't forget that this guy is PAID to test, advertize and hype both firearms and ammo.  He is paid to do this - does anyone really think that someone who is paid to do this is going to defend the use of handloaded ammunition or older guns??  Please gentlemen, the guy is a paid hack regardless of what his background is.

Do any of you read his write-ups about new guns?  It absolutely has to be the latest and greatest that fills his holsters, or belt, or socks or wherever he carries his pistols and the ammo he uses has absolutely got to be the most powerful, devastating, shocking, killya inna instant or blow yer guts out new loading available for the police - just please notice that the bullets absolutely have to have some devastating effect or they are useless; they just cannot punch on through like ball ammo does - man, this guy would be the worst witness in the world at a war crimes tribunal with his beliefs that a bullet has to shred every single piece of flesh it comes in contact within order to be effective. 

Don't forget that this is the same guy who says a TT-33 is obsolete while he packs a 1911, but then gives that one up for a da/sa of sorts so his first shot could/can be a knee-jerk heat of the moment da trigger pull, not a conscious effort to take a 1911 off safety before you pull the trigger. 

Once again, look at the title of the original post - Only factory ammof for self defense.  Bias left a loaded handgun around his depressed wife with whom he had just argued, neither the shooting or the ammunition used or that ammo wrongly tested by the police had so much as one thing to do with a defensive street shooting, but if you continue to read this guy you will fall prey to his notion that only the newest and most destructive gun and ammo is what you should use to avoid any liability at all.  What nonsense.

Does anyone know how many home invaders or criminals have been stopped in a home by 38 spl wadcutters or swcs purchased as bulk reloads from a gun shop?  Has anyone ever been charged, that either we or ayoob speaks to for using the 'famouosly inhumane 45 automatic that will killya if it hits your finger or will blow yer shoulder off (and killya) if it touches yer earlobe, er gawd forbid it comes anywhere near ya and just leaves ya dead (will killya) in the process. 

Think about this statement - Yes Sir, my defensive gun was loaded with those new police loads that massa ayoob wrote about last month, you know, the ones that shread every single piece of flesh it comes in contact with and will killya dead if it even comes close to you', rather than the 'plain old army stuff I trained with and used during the war'.  If you are worried that someone in the court room, presecutor or someone else will think you were a cowboy out lookin' for trouble and a one shot kill for carrying the 'ayoo chest shredder' rather than plain old ball, you are right, that is exactly what they will think.  If you carry and shoot plain old army ammo (ball or fmj or cast) you are more likely NOT to be seen as someone who was out looking for trouble (cowboy).

And let us not, please, lose sight of the fact that guys like ayoob would have you in such fear of using reloaded ammunition, or even something like a 22 hollow point for your personal defense that you feel you have to purchase something that (may not be as effective) or already has a (police community) reputation for its devastation which makes you what, a cop wannabe - is that why you carry that stuff?

I'll say this once more - ayoob is a PAID hack and his sole example supporting his entire reign of blather about the perils of using handloaded ammunition for personal defense had absolutely nothing to do with a defensive street shooting.  The only lesson you should have learned from nj vs bias is that you should never let anyone with a history of suicidal thought or attempt anywhere near a loaded gun.   Duh!

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Only Factory Ammo for Self Defense?????
« Reply #49 on: April 19, 2011, 02:47:57 AM »
The point was the guy went to jail because hand loaded ammo was used . If factory ammo had been in the wifes defense gun the out come could have been different. What the guy writes in gun articles has little to do when he is a expert witness. Hey you put your spin on what you wrote , leaving out what took place and all. If you found the article you must have found the 8-9 other articles that alo supported the concept of using factory ammo.
 You know what if someone wishes to use home rolled ammo and suffer the price of doing so I don't even feel sorry for them.
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Offline cwlongshot

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Re: Only Factory Ammo for Self Defense?????
« Reply #50 on: April 19, 2011, 03:19:44 AM »
The way I see Massad Ayoob is this. While he may not be the know all, end all of justifiable shootings. He is knowledgeable. He has first hand experience. He is used by both defense and criminal attorneys, because of that. Like it or not, he is a recognized authority.
Sure he is paid, aren't you? Are your opinions less valid because your paid to give them?  He has been there and he has done that. He found a way to inform the rest of us and make a livving at it. I say good for him and thank you Mr. Ayoob. He knows the inner workings associated with justifiable shootings and their after math. The key here is its FIRST hand knoledge. Something I'll bet NONE of us has. I hope and pray we never get! I will know my options in protecting myself before, during and after the fact.

So while I appreciate your furver. I'm gonna side with Ayoob in this one. We are all entire to our own opinions. But informed researched decisions outweigh personal feelings and uninformed or partially informed opinions in my book.


CW
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Offline john keyes

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Re: Only Factory Ammo for Self Defense?????
« Reply #51 on: April 24, 2011, 04:17:32 PM »
this may be out of context here but in any shooting it better be pretty clear that you:
-had no means of escape
-no other choice but to shoot

You are gonna be on the end of a civil suit after a shooting, be it whether  the "victim" dies or survives,  handloads or not.

As for me, I have never given a second thought to carrying "reloads" in my SP101 or little S&W 60
Though taken from established manufacturers' sources and presumed to be safe please do not use any load that I have posted. Please reference Hogdon, Lyman, Speer and others as a source of data for your own use.

Offline Curtis

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Re: Only Factory Ammo for Self Defense?????
« Reply #52 on: April 24, 2011, 05:07:56 PM »
Quote
You are gonna be on the end of a civil suit after a shooting, be it whether  the "victim" dies or survives,  handloads or not.

Not true in every state.  Texas and (I think) Florida's Castle Doctrine precludes a civil suit if it was determined to be a "justifiable shoot".  Maybe other states as well, but I'm only certain about Texas since they strengthened our Castle Doctrine on Sept 1, 2007.  We can also carry loaded and concealed in our vehicle now without a CC permit and also defend said vehicle from a car jacker with deadly force having no obligation to retreat.  Street thugs and carjackers .........."Don't mess with Texas"!

More on topic, I bought some 40 cal 155 gn. JHP ammo made by Federal in a blue and silver box that has a white sticker added that says "NOT FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT USE".  Does anyone know what the reason for this is and would it have any legal implications as discussed in this topic?

Thanks,
Curtis
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Offline Spirithawk

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Re: Only Factory Ammo for Self Defense?????
« Reply #53 on: April 24, 2011, 05:10:28 PM »
We have the Castle Law here in Missouri as well and can also carry loaded in a vehicle without a Conceal Carry Permit. It's called the Peaceable Journey Act. :D

Shooting to disarm someone is great in the movies but sucks in real life. If you have reached the point you have to shoot a person then it is, or had best be, to save an inocent life be it your's or someone else or to protect your property. That being the case, shooting to kill is the only safe option if you wish to live. That being said does it make sense to load your firearm with ANY round that is minimal at best in stopping an attacker quickly and decisively? That would be like buying liability insurance and then entering a demolition derby!

Offline The Pistoleer

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Re: Only Factory Ammo for Self Defense?????
« Reply #54 on: April 26, 2011, 01:38:59 PM »
Regardless of what you think of Massad Ayoob, he is a recognized witness.  If you have taken one of his courses he will appear in your defence for a fee of $1.00.  I assume that first you have to convince him that you were within your rights.

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Offline bubbinator

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Re: Only Factory Ammo for Self Defense?????
« Reply #55 on: June 02, 2011, 09:50:35 PM »
I come with 42+ yrs LEO+20 yrs Firearms Instructor/40 yrs Reloading in 30+ calibers/been sued  as an LEO and won and deeply respect Mr. Ayoob & Co on this subject. I can make some damned good loads that work-they are for hunting. For my carry loads-Commercial "LE Only" loads are great and available, check the sources.  For example-Police Marksmanship Association-(Gulf States Distributors, Montgomery,AL) sell 50 rd boxes of the 135gr Gold Dot Short Barrel 38+P for $19.00 where most other sources want $22.+ for 20 rds! Same for Fed HST rds.. When I leave my house-LE Factory in in my guns because I have tested/seen tests of them and carry in calibers known to perform.

Offline jimster

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Re: Only Factory Ammo for Self Defense?????
« Reply #56 on: June 03, 2011, 10:33:23 AM »
Well I will still say it all depends on your state, and the laws, and your prosecutor.  Where I live, and with our laws and our prosecutor, we don't have to worry about such things as handloads, all you worry about is the one thing he will look for, did you believe your life was in danger or great bodily harm...that's all there is.  And if HE says you followed the law and no charges are made, there won't be any civil case against you, that is against the law here.  But I understand...if you live in a place like Massachusetts you might need someone like Mr. Ayoob.

We are all from different places here, so there will be different situations and laws, and prosecutors.  I had to take off last night and go to a little town 10 miles south of me,  I just threw the 44 spl in my van and left, and I don't own any factory loads for that caliber, but I don't have to worry about that here.  If you have to worry about that, by all means, by factory loads.  One size don't fit all, we are from all over the U.S.

Where I live you either have to stop somebody or you don't...it don't make a difference if it's a cast Keith slug or a factory LE gold dot or your ball bat, it's either justifiable or it ain't. 

If you need factory loads where you live to defend your life, then I guess you best buy them. 

Offline rockbilly

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Re: Only Factory Ammo for Self Defense?????
« Reply #57 on: June 05, 2011, 10:48:15 AM »
This subject has been hashed out several times.  When I first read about using hand loads in my CCW I didn’t really give it much thought, however, several day later over coffee I had the opportunity to talk to my fishing buddy who is an attorney and former county district attorney.  He was fast to advise me to pay the price for a box of factory ammo, preferably the same type carried by the police and load my gun with that.  His take was, while the issue may never be brought up, a slick attorney for the family of the deceased may use this as a wedge to portray you as a “Rambo” and win a judgment against you.  It can still happen even using factory ammo, but at least you know for the price of a box of ammo you have eliminated at least one possible charge against you.  Cheap insurance in my opinion.

Offline cwlongshot

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Re: Only Factory Ammo for Self Defense?????
« Reply #58 on: June 05, 2011, 04:39:46 PM »
This subject has been hashed out several times.  When I first read about using hand loads in my CCW I didn’t really give it much thought, however, several day later over coffee I had the opportunity to talk to my fishing buddy who is an attorney and former county district attorney.  He was fast to advise me to pay the price for a box of factory ammo, preferably the same type carried by the police and load my gun with that.  His take was, while the issue may never be brought up, a slick attorney for the family of the deceased may use this as a wedge to portray you as a “Rambo” and win a judgment against you.  It can still happen even using factory ammo, but at least you know for the price of a box of ammo you have eliminated at least one possible charge against you.  Cheap insurance in my opinion.

Now where have we herd this before....  ::)
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Offline mrussel

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Re: Only Factory Ammo for Self Defense?????
« Reply #59 on: June 16, 2011, 08:50:06 PM »
'Savage I posted some over a year ago . You can look back if you like . One involved a police officer who's wife commited suicide with some light loads he had made , it was felt he shot her because if the gun had been close like a suicide shooting it would have left more powder burn/residue . They were articles in several magazines listing other shootings . Check Massad Ayoob's web sight or Legal Force Insitute.

But that's not what he was talking about. Thats a case of incompetence on the part of forensics and the investigators. They drew a incorrect conclusion from the evidence because they made an assumption about the bullets that was incorrect.

 What he is talking about is the prosecutor saying "The defendant created his own special "Man Stopper" bullets,far more powerful than what he could buy and then went out looking for trouble,and he found it." Ive read about a few cases where they have done this,but in those cases,it was not just the bullets but many other factors. In fact,in the articles I read,it seemed they had good reason. (Sometimes,the prosecutors go overboard,but sometimes they hit the nail right on the head) Still I carry factory loads because I don't want to deal with that potential risk. Other people seem to be able to get away with anything,but I cant even get away with a speeding ticket,so if there is someone that's going to end up getting shafted by some BS like that,its probably me.  Honestly,I can see them twisting anything.
 I use Hornady XTP. OMG it stands for Extreme Terminal Performance. He bought bullets to "Terminate" people,extreme ones at that!!!  :o
 Do you use the same bullets the police use? Wow,your some sort of John Wayne wanna be sheriff. You bought bullets that are so dangerous and deadly they are only intended for sale to law enforcement. They will tell the jury that these bullets,like heavy duty body armor,and fully automatic weapons,which have a place in legitimate police work to combat heavy armed criminals, have no legitimate place in civilian hands and are wholly unsuitable for self defense.
 If they really want to put you away,they will twist the defense of "I used what the police use,because I figured that it would be appropriate for personal self defense" into "I found out what SWAT team uses against heavily armed gang members ,drug runners and terrorists,and got that at the gun show because it was the most lethal thing I could get my hands on" (and of course,everyone ... well everyone that made it through jury selection at least.... knows that gun shows are these black market sorts of deals where,without even so much as a drivers license,much less any sort background check,fully automatic weapons,hand grenades and silencers can be purchased,and apparently,or so the prosecutor will say,so can special ammo,far more lethal than what is normally sold in your local Walmart,that is usually restricted for sale only to police departments for use taking down AK47 wielding narco-terrorists.) In short,you just cant win.