Author Topic: Reloading nightmare. A Bad Day at the Press. (Read 1381 times)

Land_Owner · « **on:** April 03, 2011, 05:52:02 AM »

Yesterday was a waste..of primers, of powder, of cases, of jacketed bullets, of $$'s and time.

I have a 5-station progressive press. It failed to function in the manner in which it was intended in almost every way, with one notable exception, nothing physically broke but I was seriously considering shooting it with a shotgun and 3.5" double 00 buckshot.

1.) It wouldn't index. I took it apart, cleaned it rigorously, and put it back together.
2.) It still wouldn't index. I took the nylon bushing out and replaced it. Only then it indexed properly.
3.) Primers would not seat completely in some cases. I checked and double checked the primer seater. Then changed the seater height. Still, some cases seat and some don't.
4.) Some cases would exhibit skewed primers, completely messing up the primer. Other cases didn't seat a primer at all leaving an empty primer hole to leak powder.
5.) Empty primer holes leaked powder over everything.
6.) Plain based bullets would crush some deburred case mouths.
7.) Crushed case mouths would "eject" the unseated bullet throwing powder over everything.
8.) The impact bullet puller disintegrated.
9.) Eventually I turned the progressive into a single die decapper.
10.) Then a lubed case got stuck in the die and had to be extracted.
11.) I "finished" and spent the evening with a primer pocket reamer and case mouth deburring tool.

Talk about a day of frustration! Everything I touched turned to excrement. It GENERALLY is NOT LIKE THIS.

At least there was something to remember about yesterday: there was a beautiful fingernail moon at 6:00 AM in the morning and one hen turkey graced the field over which I was hunting for Toms....

mauser98us · « **Reply #1 on:** April 03, 2011, 08:15:46 AM »

This is why Mikey shies away from progressives and has used a single stage press for over 40 years. Hell I figure all I have is time anyway. Glad it really did not go super bad with a miss loaded round at the range.

rugerfan.64 · « **Reply #2 on:** April 03, 2011, 09:33:59 AM »

Hopefully you have all your bad luck out of the way now. Sounds like the only way to go is up from there.

huntducks · « **Reply #3 on:** April 03, 2011, 11:51:06 AM »

So what press is it?

I had one of them days 3 weeks ago on a PW 800 shotshell press just quit after a hour or so with 1/2 box loaded and 5 shells stuck in the plate, so I switched over to my Mec and loaded 10 box's without a hitch.

southernutah · « **Reply #4 on:** April 03, 2011, 11:59:09 AM »

If i have to lube it it goes in the single stage press and the slow-mow pace. Just had a lot of the same issue with my dillion on soem 45ACP. some cleaning and few new parts and back at it.

mechanic · « **Reply #5 on:** April 03, 2011, 12:08:12 PM »

I use a turret press, but not a progressive. I prime with the Lee hand primer. I use an RCBS powder measure that dumps into a tray to go on the scale. I've had too many "equipment failures" in the past and choose to do it the slow mo sure way. Hope you get the buggers out! It can be frustrating when it doesn't go well.

What is worse, is to load several hundred rounds, then discover something went wrong.......

Ben

cwlongshot · « **Reply #6 on:** April 03, 2011, 12:42:50 PM »

I glad to read it was only aggravation. I was worried it was someone getting hurt!!

The only progressive I have now is a Dillon 550. I bought it when I was shooting Cowboy and Plates /Pins with the 45. I am going to get a 9mm and 40 Cal plate for it soon. I set it up with the buttons out so I can pull a case from any station to set things up easier. Its been a very good press with the only problems coming form something I didn't set up properly.

Like Mauser98, I load 99% on my RCBS Ammo master in single stage. (I just remembered I do have a progressive setup for this press too. But do not use it.) Just last week I loaded up 200+ 40 S&W shells in a couple nights. The first night I threw 200+ cases in the tumbler. The next day resize and flair the mouth. The next night, seat primers and charge with powder then seat bullets.

CW

LONGTOM · « **Reply #7 on:** April 03, 2011, 01:55:20 PM »

I too, have always used a single stage.
I used to own a Lee progressive but never likes it as there was to much give and play in it.
I do have a nice RCBS 6 station Turret press with several turret heads I intend to get set up this season and try.
Of course it is nothing more that a multi station single stage in reality.

LONGTOM

rdmallory · « **Reply #8 on:** April 03, 2011, 03:27:34 PM »

Quote from: mechanic on April 03, 2011, 12:08:12 PM

I use a turret press, but not a progressive. I prime with the Lee hand primer.

Same here. I keep pricing a Blue progressive but I can buy a lot of powder and primers for that $600 it would take to set up a new press.

bilmac · « **Reply #9 on:** April 03, 2011, 03:43:53 PM »

My experience has been almost the same as CWs . I have a Dillon because I was Cowboy shooting and practicing a lot for law enforcement. Now days I am not shooting nearly as much and when I need some bullets it is easier to just make them on my single station. When I was using it a lot the Dillon was working good, but it takes some tinkering to get it there.

Land_Owner · « **Reply #10 on:** April 03, 2011, 04:05:27 PM »

I am just a reloader, weekender, not a competitive shooter, so my choice was to supplement my Rock Chucker with the green progressive (Piggyback II). It has had its ups and downs. Mostly it has been very favorable. I can put enough 45 Colt, 45 ACP, 357 Mag, and 380 Auto together in a weekend to last a month of shooting. I have made .223 rounds on it too and that has been a dramatic improvement in my output for that little spray and pray gun, which is a ton of fun and very accurate too. I like cheap ammo, range brass, fire formed, reloaded without fuss, that the little guns eats up and spits out to point of aim.

I was loading for a new-to-me used Handi-rifle that is very accurate with the progressive loads I made the last time (~2,000 of them then). It just refused this past Friday. I was using a new-to-me CCI primer #41, specifically made for the 5.56mm NATO. Apparently, the trouble is the .223 cases don't like that primer. Twenty percent (20%) of the rounds I fired today, that is 15 out of 75 rounds, failed to fire. I have another 250 rounds of it that I struggled to make, which are now suspect. Even double striking the primers failed to set them off. The load was eratic and inaccurate, the same load that was very good last time.

I suspect it is all a function of the primers...the only component that I changed in all of this.

Graybeard · « **Reply #11 on:** April 03, 2011, 07:51:03 PM »

I've loaded hundreds of thousands of rounds of ammo for handguns, rifles and shotguns all on single stage presses. Such stories are why I'll never use a progressive. I've seen too many examples of not only bad but down right dangerous ammo loaded on them in my time.

I've managed to feed my passion for shooting even in the days when I shot competition regularly with only single stage presses. I reckon I'll get by just fine without one for whatever years I have left.

mirage1988 · « **Reply #12 on:** April 03, 2011, 08:12:42 PM »

Landowner-
Are you using 5.56 range brass? The 5.56 nato brass has staked primers which would cause your primer insert problem unless you are reaming the primer pockets. I suspect you are crushing the primers and that is causing the ftf.

bilmac · « **Reply #13 on:** April 04, 2011, 12:05:46 AM »

Makes me wonder. Our outfit bought a bunch of reloaded 223 ammo for us to qualify with one year. It was horrible stuff too. I wonder if someone had used that same primer.

Old Syko · « **Reply #14 on:** April 04, 2011, 04:01:42 AM »

Here we go! Now #41 primers are junk.

Been burning 10 to 15,000 of them a year for some time and now I find out I've been fooling myself by using this junk.

A little advice to all. The problem ain't the Primers.

Land_Owner · « **Reply #15 on:** April 04, 2011, 04:59:59 AM »

All right...I will assume for the moment that the #41 primers are not the culprit. The next item would be the firing pin and its spring. It is, after all, a used gun.

I can not look at the primer and ascertain what is the minimum indent required to set one off. I can not look at the primer to tell if it is seated to the bottom of the cup - except that it is equal to or just slightly below the case head. I can double strike it with the firing pin if it is not fully seated. That didn't work. 60 of 75 (75%) of the rounds went off.

The main difference between a "near fired" and fired primer is the crushed primer from the recoil of the round against the bolt. You just don't get that same impression when it doesn't go off. I have seen 10's of thousands of spent primers.

I have seen less than 20 indented primers as a result of seating a primer, weak spring, or broken firing pin strike. They are not very distinct or prevalent - good thing too. These primers do not appear to be in that category. These primers exhibit a clear, distinct, and fairly deep indent, an indent that could have, should have set the primers off.

The primer feeding tubes were loaded off-line and away from case lubricating, so there is no thinking that the primers became fouled by case lube.

What's next?

drdougrx · « **Reply #16 on:** April 04, 2011, 05:58:13 AM »

Another single stager here...everytime I think about bringing out my Dillon RL450, I cringe at the thoughts of the set-up time. I use a LYMAN Spartan!!!

cwlongshot · « **Reply #17 on:** April 04, 2011, 06:00:41 AM »

I thing you know this, but it bears repeating.

Primers should be fully seated but not crushed. This will be ever so slightly below flush. I use my educated finger, but until "yours" is so educated a small piece of glass with reveal a "proud" primer instantly.

What can happen is the force or some of it is absorbed in moving a proud primer into it's seat. Most times resulting in a misfired round. SOMETIMES they will fire on second strike.

A primer needs a surface to seat against, touching it's anvil to cause ignition. The case itself is an important part.

If your cases has crimped primers and you didn't properly remove that crimp, misfires would be a common result. I prefer to swadge them back into shape, then uniform the pocket.

Of coarse if you got these primers from a questionable source or questionable storage practices where they where stored. The problem could lie directly with the primers them selves.

Frustrating I know. But if you know your loading practices are correct and you know the firearms fire control is correct. Then it's likely the "fault" lies with something that's beyond your control. That's te primers, try a known good lot.

CW

aromakr · « **Reply #18 on:** April 04, 2011, 06:16:51 AM »

I too have used the CCI 41's with no FTF, since the problem is in your handi. Why not got to the handi forum on this site and visit the FAQ's your problem is probably with your handi. I have several handi's and have seen several other's posts about this problem. Your problem is most likely with the transfer bar, the hammer spring or a head space issue. Head space is easy to tell, place a loaded round in the barrel after removing from the action and place a straight edge across the end of the barrel. If the round lies below the straight edge, that will more than likely be the problem.
Bob

Ranger J · « **Reply #19 on:** April 04, 2011, 06:30:57 AM »

I'm an old Orange Crush user. I'm retired and what's time to a hog.

RJ

Old Syko · « **Reply #20 on:** April 04, 2011, 07:22:02 AM »

Land_Owner I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here but you've likely voiced your own problem with the 41 primers and that problem is in the application of said primers to the wrong product. 41s are very tough to withstand the tapping received from a floating firing pin in a semi or full auto military style rifle such as the M16, M4, or other similar designed weapons as the bolt returns to battery. The Handi just doesn't fit this category. Although I'm not a Handi owner I do read of a lot of their problems and misfires such as yours seem to be at the top of the list quite often. Give those 41s a home at their proper application and you'll be better off.

Steve P · « **Reply #21 on:** April 04, 2011, 07:22:18 AM »

I will stick with my blue presses and continue using that one Lee item of worth, the hand primer. Thousands of rounds a year and no stress.

Tried the priming in the press method and still do on some mega use rounds...9mm, 38s, etc, but I don't have to hunt or shoot these in competition.

All hunting and competition ammo gets sized and deprimed on the blue press, cleaned, trimmed, primed with the Lee, then loaded on the blue progressive.

Load one round at a time on your progressive press, Perfectly. Run ONE brass through all 3, 4, or 5 stations on your progressive press. Make sure it comes out reloaded perfectly! Only after you have reloaded 5 in a row in this manner, are you ready to begin putting in more than one brass at a time into your press.

Even then, you have to inspect each brass, one at a time, to confirm you are loading it correctly. If you have a 3 station press, this is three inspections with each pull of the handle. If you have 4 or 5 station press, you have 4 or 5 inspections. You are loading one brass at a time, in multiple stations. Do each of them perfectly and progress each to the next step. Ignore any one brass in any one station and you are likely to have problems.

Learn to load one at a time, first.

Steve

Catfish · « **Reply #22 on:** April 04, 2011, 07:34:52 AM »

I`m a progressive press user. I`ve been loading on a 550 Dillon since the 1980. If you spend 8 hrs. loading on your single stage press, and I spend 7 1/2 hrs. working on my Dillon and 1/2 hr. reloading, I will still end up with more ammo and unless your very prectiular, of better quality than you. A friend came over the other nite wanting some 6 x 45 ammo loaded. Since I have never loaded for this round I had to start from scrach setting up the Dillon, find some data for a powder I had on hand, form the once fired 223 case to 6 x 45 and load them up. He was here for about 1 hour and I sent 50 rounds home for him to try his new upper. With the time we spent just talking I doubt it took a 1/2 hr. to set up and load the 50 rounds. I have an 800 PW setting in the vault that I used to use alot when I was shooting trap. I usually just filled 1 - 5 gallon bucket ( 500 rounds ) when I set down to load, but have filled up to 4 of them a one setting. If I loaded everything I load on a single stage press I would never have any time to shoot.

Larry Gibson · « **Reply #23 on:** April 04, 2011, 07:58:33 AM »

I've 3 single stage presses (C, O and Bonanza Coax)) and 2 Dillon presses (SDB and 550B) Been loading on the single stages since '68 and the Dillons since '85. Depends what I'm loading and how many rounds as to which I use. All take correct set up with the progressives taking a little more simply because they are more automated. Once set up correctly on a sturdy bench the problems with them usually are human errors (my fault). I have had the misfortune to assist several owners of Green Machines and the Hornady progressives who had similar troubles as Landowner describes. Both were adaptaions of standard presses and were a pain to get set up and timed correctly. Every time the owners wanted to change calibers or the load things got out of wack and became almost too much for them to deal with. They traded off their green and red machines and went blue. I have not had to assist them after the first set up since. Yes Dillons also will break or parts will wear out but the service is outstanding and once understood they are relatively easy to keep running, especially the SDB and 550B. The Star progressives are good machines also. One I would steer completely clear of is the older original C&H linear progressives.

I didn't give up my C press whin I got the O press, didn't give up either when i got the Coax and kept them all when I got the SDB and the 550B because they are still used. Actually I do a lot of combination loading with them; I'll FLS .357, 44 and .45 Colt cases on the single stage. I then inspect the cases and clean the primer pockets. The cases are then loaded with practice or medium strength loads on the SDB. For my full hose magnum loads i still use just the single stage press to ensure everything is "just right". Pretty much the same procedure with rifle cases on the 550B.

I don't claim either type of press is better over the other as both have their uses. I also have used turret presses and still have Lee Loaders, a Lee hand press, 2 Lyman tong tools and several 310 sets of dies which I use also. Each toll, progressive, single stage or hand tools all have their own function and use. I use all of them to suit the job at hand. BTW; I've also loaded thousands of .38s, .45 ACPs, 5.56 and 7.62s on single stage presses. The progressives just make the job easier is all.

Land_owner

It is easy to damage primers during seating so they misfire if if the crimp is not properly swaged or removed from milsurp cases. Also the #34s (LR) and the #43s (SR) primers have harder cups to prevent slam fires. Some actions do not hit the primers hard enough for ignition or consistent ignition. A switch in primers may be necessary. Not much i can say about your Green machine other than when you get it operating correctly don't change anything.

Larry Gibson

Land_Owner · « **Reply #24 on:** April 04, 2011, 09:21:37 AM »

Quote from: Old Syko on April 04, 2011, 07:22:02 AM

...problem is in the application of said primers to the wrong product...Give those 41s a home at their proper application and you'll be better off.

BINGO!

Right now, I do not disagree with that at all! This is the second time I have used the #41's. My Handi-rifle application is, in all probability, incorrect. I used the 41's in an AR-15 without problem in factory new cases last time.

For 20+ years I have made consistent and accurate rounds with a single stage press (270 and 30-30). In general, my progressive doesn't give me trouble, at least not like this. It must know, or suspect, that #41's and Handi are just not suited to one another. I did have trouble with the .223 primer pockets and went back to hand reaming and deburring as I had indicated.

For .223 Handi-rifle rounds I will return the Rock Chucker to its intended one-at-a-time application where I hand prepare cases, hand install primers (CCI #400 SR from now on), and weigh every powder charge prior to its contribution to the finished round. When making "fun stuff" for the AR-15, then the progressive will get the nod - maybe the remainder of the 41's too. When making rounds for my pistols, the Green Machine is going to get exercised. Set up isn;t a problem, at least not any longer. I purchased and set up multiple tool heads for each of the calibers I shoot. Change a tool head and the powder measure and you are making rounds again.

I will check the Handi-forum (where I post a lot), Handi-FAQ's, head space, transfer bar, and the hammer spring too. Thank you all for your thought provoking comments. Regardless of your choice, progressives are extremely impressive machines. I marvel at the ingenuity of the thinkers that created these in their infancy.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #25 on:** April 05, 2011, 03:00:41 AM »

sorry guys but if i had to load handgun ammo single stage there be a bunch of handguns up for sale! I just cant see spending the whole day loading ammo that can be shot off in an hour or two. I value my time more then that. Yes some progressives can be a headache and some guys get in over there heads when buying one. I love 650s and like lnl horndays but even they can give you fits occasionaly. I will say one thing that is fact. Buy yourself a 550 dillon and you will have no more headaches then you get from a single stage press. Not quite as fast as a true progressive but if kept clean theres not much that can go wrong. I still load rifle ammo on a single stage except for .223 and .308 which get loaded progressively. I hate to hunt anyones feelings but if your loading on a single stage press for all your ammo your just not shooting much. I cant see one advantage a single stage has over a 550 other then initial cost. But bottom line is that initail cost isnt much of an argument either. I hear all the time guys saving they just cant afford 500 bucks for a press and then turn around a week later and buy another gun. More times then not that gun will just sit in the safe with the rest of them collecting dust. Come on back at me guys. Tell me one advantage your single stage press has over a dillon 550

gypsyman · « **Reply #26 on:** April 05, 2011, 04:14:51 AM »

Landowner, here's my .02 worth. Way back when, I bought a piggy back for my rockchucker. Paid hell with that thing for a good 6 months. Something always had to be re-adjusted. Sold it. Now they have the piggyback 2, which tells me, they didn't get the first one right. Don't think they got this one right either. Rcbs, is trying to convert a single stage press to a progressive. Don't think it's going to work. It usually doesn't. Everytime a company try's to modify something, it usually is a bust. Remember the Chevy 350 -4 bolt main engine, and they tried to convert that to diesel. Or, the one I had problems with,Dodge tried to use a heavy duty gas automatic tranny with the Cummins diesel engine. I could have bought 6 or 7 new guns and a new reloading press with what I spent trying to keep that truck on the road. Point is, if ya want a progressive, get one that designed as one. I've got a Dillion 550, and it works real good. gypsyman

Savage · « **Reply #27 on:** April 05, 2011, 04:30:21 AM »

I load all my high volume ammo on progressives. Otherwise I'd never be able to shoot as much as i do. Progressives require you to understand everything that's going on, and how they relate to each other to make it all come together. I'm not giving up my single stages or turrets either.
Savage