.44 Mag Throad Depth (COAL?) / .44 "Maximum?"

[JMcDonald]

I reload .44 magnum quite a bit, and have a pretty solid understanding of the principles of powder combustion. I have been thinking of how neat it would be to seat the bullets really far out for a Handi, for a pretty substantial increase in case capacity (especially with heavier bullets, but I wouldn't go heavier than about 240gr). Garrett has already experimented quite a bit with this principle, seating their bullets far out to increase the case capacity (http://www.garrettcartridges.com/garrett44mag.html), and I've heard people talking about doing this to lesser extents for firearms that can handle it (specifically, single-shots and revolvers with long cylinder). 

So...

1) What is the chamber depth on the Handis (how far into the bore does the rifling start)? About how far out could I seat the bullet (depending, of course, on bullet shape)? Have any of you measured or experimented with this?

2) If necessary, is there any way to ream the chamber (and throat) slightly deeper to allow for this?

With a 180gr bullet maybe .125" could be added to the effective case length, giving about a relative 10% increase in case capacity. With a 240gr bullet, about .25" could actually be added to the effective case length if the bullet is seated a shallow as possible, giving an OAL of maybe 1.8-1.9". This would increase relative case capacity be about 30% or so for this bullet weight.

Of course, if I did decide to go through with all this, I would invest in the Quickload software, and would obviously start low. I might even experiment with slightly slower powders than are traditionally used for .44mag, both to reduce peak pressures and see if I couldn't take advantage of it. But, the end result could be, from a 22" Handi, pushing a 240gr bullet to maybe 2100-2200fps, and 180gr bullets to maybe 2500-2600fps. The goal would be more for trajectory than necessarily bullet performance, though, and largely just for the fun of it (which I'm sure you guys can understand, with your handi obsessions ). Of course, I have no dillusions of rifle-caliber trajectories, but it might be a fun project to play with at some point. 

Thanks!

[quickdtoo]

I seldom load to recommended COL for any of my H&R's,  prefer to load closer to the lands, I have two 44mag H&Rs, one I've never handloaded for, just shot a couple factory loads in it, but the latest Ilion made rifle(444 now) had a decent throat in it, 240gr XTPs touch the lands at 1.750", I loaded them .020" off the lands and they shoot decent. MOST H&Rs have longish throats but not all do, the 45-70s for example are an exception and more often than not will be short throated. Use a good tool to determine actual throat length with the bullet of choice and check several samples, I've found some bullets to be very inconsistent in ogive shape and bullet length itself due to inconsistent tips, meaning if you choose to load real close to the lands, some bullets may actually be into the lands which according to QuickLoad software increases start pressure by 7200psi which can mean the difference between a safe load and one that isn't, specially at near max loads. When I load real close to the lands, under .010" or so, I use a bullet comparator to check each round to make sure it's safe, it measures the COL off the ogive, not the tip of the bullet.

I've throat reamed several of my H&R 45-70s and my 35 Remington using throating reamers from 4D, there actually isn't any throat in H&R barrels, the rifling just starts abruptly, there's no tapered leade, throating will get you a nice tapered leade, but it will also increase the reach to the lands and allow longer COLs which in turn increases powder capacity which increases velocity, it may or may not increase accuracy.

I've only shot one load comparison in one of my throated 45-70s, prior to throating, 300gr Nosler Partitions and H4198 averaged 2425fps, lost right at 100fps with the same load after throating using the same load and COL at 2.55". The throat was reamed ~.250" deeper so I could load big bullets longer, in this case effectively making a 457 WWG Mag out of it which is essentially your goal loading the 44mag to a longer COL.

I only have single shots, so having ammo that's loaded longer isn't a problem, it would be a big problem if you have multiple firearms with the same chamberings, so you'd certainly need to mark the ammo well and keep it separate so it doesn't get used in the wrong gun. 

If you want to increase the actual chamber length to load a longer case, the best solution is 445 Supermag(see reamer sticky) or 444 Marlin, the latter requires an SB2 frame tho and top loads in the 445SM do too,  current and recent production 44mags come on cast iron SB1 frames, so going to a higher pressure round has it's caveats.

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,112672.msg1098350243.html#msg1098350243

[JMcDonald]

Wow thanks for the awesome info! The .445 supermag does indeed sound very promising!

[quickdtoo]

The big problem with the 445SM is brass availability, Starline is the only source and they haven't made any for a while, may be a while before they do, they still list no expected availability date.    It can be made from 303 Brit or 30-40 Krag with some work tho.

Tim

http://www.starlinebrass.com/index.php?cPath=1&osCsid=3940f033c1765a802d553fe16f5b0a9a

[bikerbeans]

JM,

My two cents is if you are going to rent/buy a reamer or buy a barrel/gun just go to the 444M.  You can always download the 444M to 44 Mag levels or lower with trail boss or other slower powders if you don't want the full house load of the 444M.  Also, brass is readily available for the 444M, but as Quick says the 444M will need the SB2 frame.  Also, if you want a matched set Magnum Research makes a 444M revolver.

BB

[JMcDonald]

Haha, I don't even shoot maximum .44 loads out of my revolver, let alone .444!

Yeah, I liked the .44 because it would mean I wouldn't need to stock any additional components or equipment (I get pretty anal with my minimalism, heh), and because it is the largest case that can still be loaded as a pistol case. The .445 Supermag would still largely fit that bill, being that I could still use all the same equipment (except I might get an extra die set just so I can keep my adjustments the same), and I could use all the same components. Going up to the .444 would mean I would need separate reloading equipment. Given I don't have a specific need for the rifle, I figured I would embrace the convenience of sticking with the same cartridge, and still give myself something to fiddle with by playing with extended COALs or, as you've helped me discover, perhaps the .445 Supermag.

[Ditchdigger]

The best part of the 445 supermag is that you can still shoot 44 mag,and 44 special in it. You can come within 125 fps. of the 444 with the 240 gr. bullet,with alot less powder and recoil.I would be a perfect young persons gun,starting with the 44 mags one yr. and maybe the 445 the next. Digger

[Spanky]

JM,

My two cents is if you are going to rent/buy a reamer or buy a barrel/gun just go to the 444M.  You can always download the 444M to 44 Mag levels or lower with trail boss or other slower powders if you don't want the full house load of the 444M.  Also, brass is readily available for the 444M, but as Quick says the 444M will need the SB2 frame. Also, if you want a matched set Magnum Research makes a 444M revolver. BB

I bet that'd be a handful... literally.



Spanky

[gcrank1]

I somewhat expect you will find all the preformance, and recoil, you want with the factory chambering, handloaded as you propose. You may be able to load a much heavier , thus longer bullet than you current think and have great fun lobbing them in. After all, if what you really want is a 'flat shooter' there are any number of better suited calibers than this.
Im not sure on the twists between the 44Mag and the 444, but it is likely in the FAQs. That would be my determining factor, and on an SB-2 frame if you are going to be looking for the sign that says," beyond this place there be dragons".

[JMcDonald]

Hmm perhaps. I am not super worried about recoil, as I used to regularly shoot 12g slugs from the bench for the hell of it .

I might look into what could be done with the regular .44mag, though. For example, with Hodgdon's H110 powder and a 180gr bullet, a MV of about 2300fps is obtained with a hair less than 30k PSI of pressure. Seating the bullet shallower by another .1" or more would add about about 10% more powder capacity. The load is for 31.5gr of power, though I know people have done 33gr with the same components with success. If another 10% powder is added for around 36 grains, I do wonder if perhaps 2500-2600fps couldn't be done with a 22" Handi barrel. And the same goes for heavier bullets too, though I might not push so hard with the heavier bullet, or might experiment with slightly slower powders to compensate. But, perhaps 2200fps or so could be done with a 240gr bullet. I do think the .44m could definitely be stretched to a 200-yd PBR, though. With a 160yd zero, a 240gr XTP would be 2.2" high at 100 yards and 3.8" low at 200 yards.

[petemi]

I really like my .445, but brass is the problem.  I've had it on backorder with Midway since October.  Yesterday they told me the 13th of April......we'll see.  If and when I do get it, I'm gonna hoard it like gold.  In fact, I think I should call in, do my civic duty, and increase my backorder to 200.

Pete

[phatgemi]

I really like my .445, but brass is the problem.  I've had it on backorder with Midway since October.  Yesterday they told me the 13th of April......we'll see.  If and when I do get it, I'm gonna hoard it like gold.  In fact, I think I should call in, do my civic duty, and increase my backorder to 200.

Pete

Pete, did you talk to Midway or Starline. If you talk to starline, they will tell you it probably will be 6-8 months or more before they make a run of 445 brass. Unless of course we could get a bunch of people to order.....but then we would still have a shortage......I think we all my start hoarding if it ever becomes available.......

jim

[gcrank1]

Well guys, if I am ever anywhere and find some for sale I WILL buy it and offer it up here for cost & shipping, of course. I dont forsee me getting that caliber, but as we all get around we may find what the other guy needs. I hate the thought (having been there one time myself with no brass of an odd type) of somebody not able to use his rifle! I have no doubt that it would be gone quickly so I have no worries about spending on it if I find it.
Keep yer eyes peeled an watch yer topknot!

[quickdtoo]

Lots of 303 brit and 30-40 Krag brass out there, so there's no reason for not being able to shoot your 445. 

Tim

[bikerbeans]

Lots of 303 brit and 30-40 Krag brass out there, so there's no reason for not being able to shoot your 445. 

Tim

hhhmmmmm!.....  maybe time for me to start a little cottage industry.

BB

[gcrank1]

BTW, if I find some what is a decent price to expect to pay for x amount (so I dont get ripped)?

[yukondog]

Midway shows them going for $41.99 per 100.

[Spanky]

Lots of 303 brit and 30-40 Krag brass out there, so there's no reason for not being able to shoot your 445. 

Tim

Is it just a matter of trimming and sizing the brass to make 445? I'm at work right now and this computer won't let me access ammoguide to check the diagrams.



Spanky

[quickdtoo]

Rim has to be cut down too, Pete's done it, maybe he'll chime in.

Tim