454 casull question

[6x6 elk]

Thinking of doing a 454 casull conversion in a Handi-Rifle. I don't reload, so I am going to start with the Hornady 300 gr. XTP/Mag. What kind of recoil can I expect or compare it to? I see that the pressures of the 454 run really high, which I would assume means increased recoil?  Thanks for any help.

[yukondog]

I have a 45LC/454 and have only shot 3 rounds of the fact. hornady 300 xtpmag. out of it, on the 3rd. shot the gun was so loose you could rattel it, it made it VERY loose, and recoil is pretty stout, but every one perceives recoil different.

[revbc]

I load the 240gr xtp-mag with 36.5 grains w296.  Recoil is sufficient, but not as much as the 45/70 with 300gr and 39gr IMr 4198.  I can shoot it off the bench with the steel but plate.  The 45/70 gets put up after about 2-3 shots with a good recoil pad.

That's the reason I purchased the 45lc CC and reamed to 454, to lower my recoil quotient.

[Jimbo47]

I've got a 45 LC and when I first got it I thought about maybe reaming it to .454 Casull since the reamer was available and I'd done my .357 mag to maximum with good results, but since I do reload, and doing some research I had found that the .45 LC gave a reloader a lot of options, which is a reloaders dream, and with the right bullet and powders you could come near to what the .454 Casull would do without the price of the added recoil, so I chose to not go that route.

My 45 LC loaded with my "hot loads" is just a push and very mild recoil compared to some of my loads I've shot in my .45-70, and one reason my .45 LC is my favorite Handi.

This is a quote from Chuck Hawks on the .454 Casull
"The price for all of this power is increased recoil, greatly increased recoil. The .454 generates almost 5 times the recoil of the .45 Long Colt, and about 75% more recoil energy than the .44 Magnum."

[S.E.Ak]

I'm shooting 335gr hardcast over 28 to 30 gr of 296 and the recoil is much less than the same round fired from my Alaskan and the 45/454BC handles it fine

[Jimbo47]

Another reason I passed on the .454 Casull, besides the higher pressures and resulting recoil, was I saw a quote on some past threads while I was researching that kind of stuck with me as being so practical and so true, was reading where someone said, "the best step up from the 45LC isn't the .454 Casull, but it's the 45-70."

I didn't have to give it much more thought since I already had a .45-70 and knew exactly what he meant!

You can load it mild or wild, and it will pretty much do it all, and again so many options!

[petemi]

I declined on the ream job to .454 or 460 for much the same reasons.  I have Handis in .45-70, .500S&W, .445 SuperMag and .357 Maximum......what would be the point?  I already have potent pistol caliber carbines.  I'm sure the .45-70 and the .500 can handle about anything that walks North America, and I'm too poor to ever make it to Africa.  My .45LC is a very comfortable little rifle to shoot the way it is, and that's how it is staying.

Pete

[S.E.Ak]

I also have a 45/70 and the recoil of my 335gr 454 load is much less than the recoil of the 45/70 325gr Hornady LE ammo or Remington trapdoor loads

[Jimbo47]

Yep Pete!

That is why the little classic carbine 45 LC is my favorite!

I've got plenty of others that I can shoot if I feel I need to punish myself, but I can do just about anything I want with the little 45 and load it up heavy when I want to shoot a hog or deer hunt with it and get the job done.

It's a great old caliber that's stood the test of time!

[dave29]

Wow, if a .454 is rattling a Handi that bad, I couldn't imagine reaming one to .460 (which is what I want to do).

[Jimbo47]

Wow, if a .454 is rattling a Handi that bad, I couldn't imagine reaming one to .460 (which is what I want to do).

I find that hard to believe also, but the only explaination I can come up with was it may have been a poor fitting job from the factory, and I've seen some lugs that were pretty rough looking with burrs from the milling still on the lug, and I could see where the factory could have fitted a barrel that may have locked up tight but was actually not seated and with a higher pressure and recoil load it could have flattened the burr thus seating the lug and shooting itself loose.

I may be wrong but I just don't buy the frame stretch and lug setback.   I just think it (the barrel) wasn't properly fitted to begin with.

[quickdtoo]

The Casull and 460 have about the same breech thrust as the 270, all at max loads, there's .008" difference in case head size, all with the same SAAMI MAP of 65kpsi, I think the 270 is harder on the frame/lug being a bottle necked case, between the three or four H&R 270s I've shot, have never had a problem with them, or my 460 S&W Handi for that matter, but haven't shot it that much.

Tim

[revbc]

Me and a friend of mine have shot the 454's a lot.  Several hundred rds, all pretty hot.  The rifles are still as tight as when purchased.  The reason for the 454 rechamber is to make the gun more versatile.  I am not against the 45LC and can and do shoot it in my BC; however, I can easily step it up to the more powerful 454 if desired.

When I was deciding to ream or not ream there were many articles about the weakness of 45lc brass.  It is claimed that it cannot take the pressure of +P loads.  I think this is a whole other argument in itself, but it caused me to go ahead and ream her.

This is a quote from Chuck Hawks on the .454 Casull
"The price for all of this power is increased recoil, greatly increased recoil. The .454 generates almost 5 times the recoil of the .45 Long Colt, and about 75% more recoil energy than the .44 Magnum."

I think Chuck was referring to recoil in handguns, even though the 454 will have more than the 45lc, I think the perceived recoil is much less in rifles.
Bobby

[dave29]

The Casull and 460 have about the same breech thrust as the 270, all at max loads, there's .008" difference in case head size, all with the same SAAMI MAP of 65kpsi, I think the 270 is harder on the frame/lug being a bottle necked case, between the three or four H&R 270s I've shot, have never had a problem with them, or my 460 S&W Handi for that matter, but haven't shot it that much.

Tim

Sounds good, thanks for posting the info.

Now that I know that I can do a .460 for sure, I'm doing it.

[6x6 elk]

Thanks for the information guys!! In Indiana we are able to use Pistol caliber cartridges in rifles as long as the case length is less than 1.62''. The 454 seems as it would be capable of 200-250 yard shots, where the 44 mag is stretching anything past 150 yards. I had a 500 S&W in a Handi -Rifle  but I had trouble with the pounding my base and rings took, even with lok-tite they would loosen up, and the 500 actually bent the base where the base overhang the Barrel/Chamber. So what I am looking for is something that has power out to 250 yards, and not beat up the bases and rings like the 500 S&W did, and the 454 seems to fit the bill.

[oldsoldja]

I know this may be a mute point for some ppl here, but the 45 lc carbine comes on a sb1, at least mine did. So if you ream your 45 barrel it has to be moved to a sb2.

[dave29]

I know this may be a mute point for some ppl here, but the 45 lc carbine comes on a sb1, at least mine did. So if you ream your 45 barrel it has to be moved to a sb2.

The only .45 Colt barrel that I know of coming on an SB-1 frame is a Survivor. That BC Carbine is an SB2 frame.

[quickdtoo]

What Dave said, the CR45LC comes on the same SB2 frame that the 45-70 BC comes on, the 357 and 44 mags come on SB1 frames tho.

Tim

[oldsoldja]

then someone swapped it out, it was used on gunbroker. prob why it was cheap.

[rdlange]

Now wait a minute... the 454 is longer than the 45LC so you can load more powder so it recoils more.  But does it recoil more with the same load as the 45LC just because the case is bigger?  I don't get it... of course a bigger bullet recoils more but the same bullet, same powder should recoil the same regardless of the case size.  Or am I missing something?

So if I want, I can load the 454 for nice easy shooting identical to the 45LC or heavier than the LC and accept the greater recoil.  Yes..?  Same with my 45-70..? 

Be Well...

[gcrank1]

Yep

[GrampaMike]

500 Special fired in your 500 S&W Magnum

case is 1.285" long (same as 44 Mag, 41 Mag, 45 Colt and 357 Mag)

Hits hard but not so much recoil...

[bikerbeans]

Now wait a minute... the 454 is longer than the 45LC so you can load more powder so it recoils more.  But does it recoil more with the same load as the 45LC just because the case is bigger?  I don't get it... of course a bigger bullet recoils more but the same bullet, same powder should recoil the same regardless of the case size.  Or am I missing something?

So if I want, I can load the 454 for nice easy shooting identical to the 45LC or heavier than the LC and accept the greater recoil.  Yes..?  Same with my 45-70..? 

Be Well...

rd

With the bigger case of the 454 you will need to use more powder to get the same velocity with the same bullet as the smaller case 45LC.  The extra powder weight adds to the recoil equation, therefore more recoil. 

The advantage of a larger case is you can get the small velocity with lower pressure than the smaller case and of course you should be able to get higher maximum velocity with the larger case.  The larger case would tend to be less efficient (need more powder than the smaller case) for a given velocity.  These differences are fairly noticeable in comparing a 45-70 to a 45-120, not sure how big a deal it is with the 45LC vs 454. 

BB

[Blackhawker]

The way I always see these things (but I'm no expert, just my thought):
It seems to me that when a slightly longer case is made for the same caliber, it's not really so that one can shoot a higher velocity with the same bullet, rather, it's to expand the range of bullet use for the caliber.  A good example is the .357 mag and the .357 max.  With the lengthening of the case, one can get more powder in, of course, but does this do all that well for a short stumpy bullet by means of stability at a higher velocity?  Probably not.  However, with the longer case, one can use more powder and a longer, heavier bullet with better performance.  Therefore, with a longer case, once can launch longer and heavier bullets at higher velocities than possible with the shorter case.  Anytime a heavier projectile is fired at a similar velocity of a lighter projectile, the recoil should be heavier.  It's that... "for ever action there is an equal and opposite reaction"...law that goes into play.  Now, if one launches a heavier projectile and a higher velocity, recoil will certainly be greater (the way I see it) unless the laws of physics have changed since I went to school. 

A lighter load in a larger case probably will show slightly less velocity (.454 case vs. 45 Colt) as less pressure can be generated.  Therefore I would expect the same load in a .454 case vs the .45 Colt case to show the same or even slightly less recoil (probably wouldn't feel the difference anyway) in the .454 case. 
Again, I'm no expert but it just seems to make sense using common sense. 

[gendoc]

yall can jabber all ya want bout tha  casull an tha .460.... gouged out from a 45colt....
i've got'um all and even a couple 45/70's.
the colt, casull and .460 have its place in handi's.. but tha 45/70 rules tha show !!!
all depends on whatcha -want !!!!!! you go your route, and don't mess wif me and my 70.
i wanted them all cus i wanted them.....so, no big thrill compared to tha 45/70
hada 500 once, but it hadta go
i'm easy..........

[cwlongshot]

I have one too!!



Sure it kicks, but its not uncontrollable. No where near the 500 and can shoot Long Colts too! I did break my nose shooting a Coyote with it. but that was more my fault than the recoil of the gun... I shot left handed and didn't have a good position. (I used to wear the Handi grip stocks.)




For me it was more form a safety standpoint then needing more power. I have been loading and shooting the 45 Colt for a long time. With the introduction of spitzer pistol bullets I wanted to try some and found them to be very accurate. But these bullets where designed for higher velocities then I was comfortable loading the long colt to. Now don't read into that wrongly, I KNOW it was safe loading up to that velocity. I simply didn't want to take any chance that those loads found there way into a expensive Colt SAA. I'm not talking Ruger level loads, these are a bit more... With me, jacketed bullet 45 Long colts are hot, lead are mild.
Some of you will remember, I had a brush with our maker a couple years ago and it has changed how I perceive some things and someone getting hurt with something I did bothers me greatly. Many people use my loads and even more trust my loadings simply because they know I loaded them. Should a load like this end up out of my control I.E. like if I was gone, it would or could be bad. I cannot say I would be effected as I would likely be gone, but it would not be right.
SO it was simple, ream to 454, load the hot loads in the 454 cases and leave the 45 Long Colt with the light and mild loads. Mine 45 BR shoots just as good now as a 454 as it did in 45 Colt. It simply shoots different loads accurately.

I have fired a couple hundred loads from my Handi, most where 300 Grain bullets at approx 3/4 454 throttle. More recently I've been loading the 200 FTX at high (er) velocities.

If your feeling the need for a bit more speed then the 454 ream of the 45 CR is a NO BRAINER!! If you wanted you could only shoot 45 Colts but if you ever needed to 454s simply open a box, insert and boom....

CW

[oldsoldja]

dont lay that down in the leaves, you may not find it.

[gcrank1]

Or, if you do lay it down in the woods, do it in mine.......

[Jimbo47]

Nowdays with GPS it would never happen!    He would find it just by feeling around!

[cwlongshot]