Author Topic: TAXES...The rich should pay more.. (Read 2398 times)

ironglow · « **on:** April 15, 2011, 02:27:35 AM »

This morning, according to Arthur Laffer... The rich should pay more taxes...BUT, pay them at a lower rate

Simply Laffer's way of saying if taxes are kept at a reasonable level, the rich will MAKE more...thus PAY more in taxes..

Makes sense, which only an envious and vindictive person could deny.

tuck2 · « **Reply #1 on:** April 15, 2011, 03:04:36 AM »

Do the top 10 % of the tax payers pay 90 % of the income taxes ? Or what is it ?

bilmac · « **Reply #2 on:** April 15, 2011, 04:40:46 AM »

This is all class warfare that the Dems use to keep us from making real changes. Another interesting fact is that the government could confiscate ALL, 100% of the income of the top earners in the country and it would only fund the government for like a day.

It's all about taking money from those willing to work and giving it to those who won't work so that they will vote for Democrats.

magooch · « **Reply #3 on:** April 15, 2011, 04:50:34 AM »

Taxing the hell out of the rich makes sense if your goal is to bring the economy down and install full blown obamunism. Being successful should always be punished.

Gary G · « **Reply #4 on:** April 15, 2011, 02:42:25 PM »

Here is a question I once heard that has stuck with me:
Can you make a poor man wealthy by making a rich man poorer?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Raise taxes on the rich and they will invest in municipal bonds that are nontaxable rather than invest in business ventures that create jobs. When they risk their capital and it benefits society.

billy_56081 · « **Reply #5 on:** April 15, 2011, 05:12:57 PM »

Has anyone ever gotten a job from a poor man?

ironglow · « **Reply #6 on:** April 15, 2011, 05:41:38 PM »

Somehow, prez Obama has in mind an idea to "spread the wealth around". That has already been tried by so many socialist/Marxist regimes..and every time all they ever succeeded in doing was to "spread the poverty and misery around".
What obama doesn't seem to realize is that when a hard-working man has his wages confiscated...so they can be GIVEN to somebody who refuses to work...naturally he asks himself.." why should I work hard, when my wages are given to somebody who mrefuses to work at all ? ..Then and there he starts to relax and play the no work game...why bother ?

carbineman · « **Reply #7 on:** April 16, 2011, 05:43:57 AM »

The problem as I see it is that the lower incomes are paying no taxes and thus have no incentive to persuade the poverty pimps they vote for to do anything but give them more of the gimmes they have grown used to.

For them the American Dream is to show up at the local governmnet agency with their hand out.

HarryRichardson · « **Reply #8 on:** April 16, 2011, 05:53:51 AM »

Quote from: carbineman on April 16, 2011, 05:43:57 AM

The problem as I see it is that the lower incomes are paying no taxes and thus have no incentive to persuade the poverty pimps they vote for to do anything but give them more of the gimmes they have grown used to.

For them the American Dream is to show up at the local governmnet agency with their hand out.

...which is also the goal of the current Administration.

carbineman · « **Reply #9 on:** April 16, 2011, 06:18:42 AM »

TM wrote, Yes,,,nobody likes this.

Great, I see we agree.

Empty Quiver · « **Reply #10 on:** April 16, 2011, 06:45:41 AM »

I don't understand why our taxes are based so much on income. Other than redistribution schemes, it unfairly taxes those who are working hardest. TM7 you can rail against investment income all you want, but is it fair for a man to loan money and get nothing in return? The investment capital came from somewhere, most "billionaires" aren't able to print the money they invest so somehow they earned it.

Is the sweat and toil of a Hollywood actress more valuable than that of an investment banker? How about a vascular surgeon, now that is a labor intensive skill, or what about a line cook at Hardee's. How far would that surgery go performed in the hallway of a public high school? The roads, police, and military needs per person change very little in regards to your wealth. Use taxes could be invoked to correct what little imbalance that would exist were folks taxed on a flat "per head" basis.

Investment money is extreamly valuable, how valuable you might wonder? So valuable that those who have it are becomeing rich beyond anyones dreams. In a capitalistic society you are constantly getting a reading on true value of a product. Movie's, hospitals, and even the Hardee's franchise were all built on borrowed money, gotta tell you I'm happy for all three to be here.

Don't give some horseshit about exploitation of the poorer class either. America is/was chuck ass full of the poorer class who came from every mud choked backwater nation on the planet. They survived, they thrived, and they prospered... or they didn't. But, they had the opportunity and that is what makes this nation grand, opportunity.

Likely I'm not going to become rich but I want the opportunity, I don't want that opportunity stripped from this nation . I don't want those who have succeded to be raped of their wealth at gun point by the tax collector. This used to be the place you came to get rich. That should not change to China or anywhere else, due to a lousy tax policy that discourages wealth.

mauser98us · « **Reply #11 on:** April 16, 2011, 07:22:49 AM »

Only 45% of the working class is working. Maybe we can drive that down to 20% to make the libs happy.Then they could buy more votes with largesse. If they could only figure a way to make 20% fund the freebies for the 80% getting them.

Empty Quiver · « **Reply #12 on:** April 16, 2011, 10:35:50 AM »

Anything can be overdone, interest rates among those things. Nobody has you at gunpoint forcing you to borrow though.

No matter how rich you are you are still just a human in the end, and unless you have stolen that wealth you don't owe society anything for that legally obtained wealth. Changing the law to make theft legal or profit through business illegal does not make it right. Taking the fruits of another mans labors is simple slavery in the end. You can dress it up any way you want but that is what slavery is, taking the fruit of a mans labor without his offering it in fair trade.

This fight is over an individual person and there rights vs. the rights of a mob to steal their treasure. Make no mistake there is nothing that cannot be construed to be of more value in the hands of a mob than in your own hands.

We need to be ever mindful of our individual liberties, those individual liberties when combined are collective liberties. Why my gosh not only should the rich pay more but the poor should be roasted over a slow fire to a golden color and then fed to lions, we shall make it a law. Surely there are more middle class than poor we could just force it through.

ironglow · « **Reply #13 on:** April 16, 2011, 07:19:59 PM »

Tm points out the so-called "patriotic millionaires" who ask Prez Obama to increase their taxes..
http://www.patrioticmillionaires.org/

What a bunch of phonies ! They can voluntarily increase their own taxes if they wish..the IRS will take donations. They can raise their taxes to a flat 100% rate if they wish !

With just a tiny bit of brain use, we can see clearly what they are asking... That Obama raise other people's taxes; since as I said..they can raise their own without asking the boy-king...

They are as phony as he is !

sidewinder319 · « **Reply #14 on:** April 17, 2011, 04:31:08 AM »

What country any where in the world has been successful after breaking the upper class? Marx railed against the upper class with long rambling speeches until they were murdered by his followers. When the saviors of the lower class took over the poor soon used up the resources. The lower classes suffered under the heal of the those who redistributed the goods of failing nations. Remember it was American capitalist who sent food and medicine to these impoverished nations. They also used the argument that if you did not work or belong to a workers union you should surrender your wealth to the people. Heaven forbid that anyone used their wealth to make investments. This is Marxist teaching 101. Marx, Stalin, and all their followers first destroyed the upper class and then destroyed lives and nations.

magooch · « **Reply #15 on:** April 17, 2011, 05:00:01 AM »

Quote from: sidewinder319 on April 17, 2011, 04:31:08 AM

Heaven forbid that anyone used their wealth to make investments. This is Marxist teaching 101. Marx, Stalin, and all their followers first destroyed the upper class and then destroyed lives and nations.

You've just described obamunism.

saddlebum · « **Reply #16 on:** April 17, 2011, 05:10:16 AM »

Since I'm geared up for posting this from posting it elsewhere, I'll post it here too. Maybe answer some of those questions you guys have and give tm another chance to pick it apart.

From Political Math;
Here is a graph showing how the rich make more income and pay even more in taxes. While the upper middle class pay about the same percentage in taxes as they make. Finally the lower 60% pay less in taxes then their % of the national income.

CLICK TO ENLARGE

http://www.visualizingeconomics.com/2010/02/12/how-much-taxes-are-paid-by-the-poor-middle-class-and-rich

NOTE:
The graph is using numbers from 2005 with those terrible Bush tax "cuts" for those terrible rich people.

ironglow · « **Reply #17 on:** April 17, 2011, 08:42:38 AM »

Quote from: TM7 on April 17, 2011, 03:33:44 AM

IG....you're such a cynic at times..... ....it may be hard for you to imagine, but there are actually some people of wealth that support their country First...paying their fair share and chipping in. I didn't see Warren Buffet's name on patrioticmillionaires.org but I believe he is a big supporter.
...TM7

Tm;
You have made a gross misassumption !
I also want to support my country. ...But I not confuse 'my country' with a bunch of crooks from the Chicago molb, who make up the current regime in DC !! I don't believe my taxes should go to pay for ACORN, the ACLU, National Endowment for the Arts, PBS or the continued killing of little girls & boys....and that's just for starters !
I don't mind financing things such as the military, state dept, center for disease control, FAA, federal highways ...things federal govt should do, constitutionally... I do not, however want to be required to pay for all the superfluous garbage beyond those already mentioned, which the feds have no business sticking their collective noses into !!

ironglow · « **Reply #18 on:** April 17, 2011, 09:59:29 AM »

TM;
You are trying out for a comedy show..right ?
Here are some of those rich people who claim to believe they want to pay more...even the messiah/king...
When April 15th rolls around each year, that's their chance to "pay more"...
But here they are...some of your favorite super rich lefties... who claim the rich don't pay enough taxes.. When their chance comes to "pony up", they use every conceivable device to avoid 'paying the piper' !

...and that includes Obama !!

http://readingeagle.com/article.aspx?id=301524 read about Obama, Buffet and Immelt (GE-CEO and one of Obama's czars)

Some folks would like us to believe they are perfect..they have it partly correct; they are PERFECT HYPOCRITES !

I expect your answer to this will be...

Hooker · « **Reply #19 on:** April 17, 2011, 10:14:29 AM »

The rich should pay a larger amount in taxes, but percentage wise they should pay no more than a poorman.
The problem is not who should pay but the amount one pays. The government will never allow there to be a fair flat tax rate for all.
Because that would destroy their ploy of class warfare. Which brings us back to the same thing every time. The government is the problem not taxes
and what they do with the taxes is always immoral even when the government is being charitable with tax money it is immoral. Because being charitable with someone else's money is at best theft.

Pat

saddlebum · « **Reply #20 on:** April 17, 2011, 10:37:28 AM »

Republicans are not guiltless in not paying their taxes. But who are the biggest tax cheats? You guessed it! The very ones who are screaming for tax hikes!

The verdict? Turns out Republicans have the bigger names—Jack Abramoff, Randy “Duke” Cunningham—but Democrats have the most tax scandals by a margin of 18 to 7.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2011-04-15/the-daily-beast-ranks-the-party-democratic-or-republican-with-the-most-tax-cheats/?om_rid=NIi-Df&om_mid=_BNqJzRB8aU2hHC#

Not sure if this includes things like John Kerry getting caught hiding his yacht to avoid paying 500,000 in Mass. taxes.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/07/23/john-kerry-saves-500000-b_n_656985.html

Can you say HYPOCRITE?!

XD40SC · « **Reply #21 on:** April 18, 2011, 03:54:09 AM »

I really don't know how I feel about this subject. Taxing the rich may prevent them from creating jobs, but keeping the poor, poor stops then from buying the products produced by the wealthy so the wealthy have to cut production which equates to cutting jobs. I don't know enough about economics to decide which way to lean.

magooch · « **Reply #22 on:** April 18, 2011, 04:34:20 AM »

Redistribution of wealth is a stupid notion that is based on the assumption that there is a finite amount of wealth. Wealth is created when products and services are provided by entrepreneurs, or resources are harvested and put to use. It should never be governments business to take from the producers of wealth and give it to non-producers.

Redistributors think it is their duty to be sure that everyone gets their piece of the pie. Let them bake their own pie. Our society has become too complex to sustain itself and will ultimately fail, because of too many trying to ride in the wagon and not enough to pull it.

HarryRichardson · « **Reply #23 on:** April 19, 2011, 04:27:13 AM »

Quote from: magooch on April 18, 2011, 04:34:20 AM

Redistribution of wealth is a stupid notion that is based on the assumption that there is a finite amount of wealth. Wealth is created when products and services are provided by entrepreneurs, or resources are harvested and put to use. It should never be governments business to take from the producers of wealth and give it to non-producers.

Redistributors think it is their duty to be sure that everyone gets their piece of the pie. Let them bake their own pie. Our society has become too complex to sustain itself and will ultimately fail, because of too many trying to ride in the wagon and not enough to pull it.

Excellent points.

Let's kick 'em out of the wagon.

ironglow · « **Reply #24 on:** April 19, 2011, 05:16:08 AM »

TM says:

"Worship of wealth and capitalism is one thing of the extremist idealogue, but measured 'mutual fairness' is the only way for the ship to sail the long course. A proper tax system goes along way to stopping the rocking and rolling along the way. Even the wealthy should know this....and a few do."

..TM7

I say;

Nobody even remotely suggests "worship" of wealth and capitalism ! To the contrary, most of those who understand capitalism and the idea of 'supply and demand'...already worship the Real God.
It is the "spread the wealth" socialist/Marxists who worship a secular god ...called socialism or communism. How many times have they been instructed.."worship God, not gov.." ?
Surely, it is not the way to "sail the long course" since communism has failed everywhere it has been tried !

As far as your chant of "mutual fairness"..who, pray tell shall decide just what constitutes 'fairness' ?
?

magooch · « **Reply #25 on:** April 19, 2011, 05:25:37 AM »

Dang, Ironglow, you beat me to it. Precisely who decides what is fair? TM tends to get kind of philosophical where common sense is all that is needed. But then I guess you have to ask, whose common sense.

sidewinder319 · « **Reply #26 on:** April 19, 2011, 10:12:20 AM »

With taxes for the working class exceeding 50%. With 30% paying no income taxes. With more people working at government jobs than private sector. Should any working American have to give up more of his income than he keeps. Well most are. Americans are paying more than 50% of their income to support the redistribution schemes.

jimster · « **Reply #27 on:** April 19, 2011, 12:01:53 PM »

What does anything matter if a budget spends 8 times More than it takes in? You could tax hell out of everything left and still spend it all in short order with a budget that spends more than it takes in. It's amazing that simple math does not have any weight in the overall debates.
There are not enough tax money in the world to make up for a budget that spends more than it takes in, it's a losing battle.

Get a budget that that does not spend more than it takes in FIRST...talk about taxing a little bit more after that for a surplus. Nothing will ever work if spending is out of control. Simple stuff, but people make it more complicated than it really is. Mostly due to ideology I guess, or being stuck in some loser political party and feeling the need to defend it.

How hard is this really? Does anyone get this besides me? You take in 5 bucks you can spend 5 bucks...how simple is this? Since anything else will fail every time, I would think more people would catch on. I would think there would be no progressives/socialists after 14 trillion in debt, they must be awfully stuck in their ways.

Empty Quiver · « **Reply #28 on:** April 19, 2011, 01:04:45 PM »

A fair redistribution is the problem. You would find precious few who would not help another person eat, have shelter and clothes... If they were TRULY unable to provide for themselves. A grown man, ablebodied and UNWILLING to work does not fit my definition of needy ( ok maybe needy of a swift kick in the rear ). Same goes for a woman who is unable to work because of "the children".

Lazy is sort of like pornography hard to strictly definine but we all know it when we see it. It should HURT to be lazy, as it should HURT to be stupid. It should HURT to be on public assistance. Pain is quite a motivator, makes you drop hot pans, makes you quit walking in front of moving trains, maybe it could make you get off public assistance. We are seeing too much lazy, that is why (working) people are so angry with public assistance.

When the dump truck is full of gravel you can go collect your daily assistance check. When all the children have been picked up from the "public" daycare shelter you can get your daily assistance check. When you are finished washing the cars at the "public" carwash you can get your daily assistance check. When all the roadside sand is swept up go collect your daily assistance check. Seven shifts would get you a voucher for seven days of housing. Yes you could share vouchers so a husband and wife would have an incentive for staying together, or you would have to pull a couple of double shifts to stay warm, tough crap. Maybe this would be so degrading and difficult a person would be motivated to work hard at a job that Americans won't do, and soon that term would be gone.

It is far too easy to spend other peoples money. Progressive taxation is tantimount to slavery, confiscation of ones labors for the benefit of another. Just a substitution of a cotton plantation with a job in an office.

ironglow · « **Reply #29 on:** April 19, 2011, 01:35:00 PM »

TM says;
"You're gatekeeping again. 'Worship' of wealth and elite is an analogy to show what in essence you do and promote... to the exclusion and prevention of all other thoughts and ideas....that's some faith you have there. The 'Mutual fairness' idea is very well spoken and thought out from Christ, Rouseau, De Torqueville, Jefferson and so many more.....it is actually a survival of the species concept in the final analysis. And no before you polarize the discussion...it does not mean initiative and ambiton is not rewarded, or that socialism prevails. Trying to polarize the discussion to perserve your calf idol doesn't cut it. To deny that man has strived for 'mutual fairness' is intellectually disingenous...to reduce man's highest endeavors to some crass naked aggression on each other and to justify it, and to nullify the Teachings. Sorry for you....this mindset must emanate from extreme fear centers."

..TM7

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

TM; you said all that above..and still didn't say a thing ! Especially, you didn't explain as asked, what "mutual fairness" is...

If you want a sample of what to say and how to say it..read Empty Quiver's post directly above ! That is a post witth much down-to-earth common sense.
He identified the problem ( lazyitis), isolated it from genuine problems, and suggested a decent and humane way of handling it ! If our policymakers had just about half the wisdom EQ offers, much of our spending/budget problems would be over, and those millions who heretofore have been a drag on society, would soon be earning their own way and gaining their self-esteem..