Author Topic: TAXES.....The rich pay less....  (Read 2605 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline crustylicious

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 697
  • Reading is fundamental, comprehension optional!
TAXES.....The rich pay less....
« on: April 16, 2011, 07:20:38 AM »
Let Us Count The Ways

Nine reasons the rich get richer thanks to U.S. tax laws

For three decades we have conducted a massive economic experiment, testing a theory known as supply side economics. The theory goes like this: Lower tax rates will encourage more investment, which in turn will mean more jobs and greater prosperity—so much so that tax revenues will go up, despite lower rates. The late Milton Friedman, the libertarian economist who wanted to shut down public parks because he considered them socialism, promoted this strategy. Ronald Reagan embraced Friedman’s ideas and made them into policy when he was elected president in 1980.

For the past decade, we have doubled down on this theory of supply side economics with the tax cuts sponsored by President George W. Bush in 2001 and 2003, which President Obama has agreed to continue for two years.

You would think that whether this grand experiment worked would be settled after three decades. You would think the practitioners of the dismal science of economics would look at their demand curves and the data on incomes and taxes and pronounce a verdict, the way Galileo and Copernicus did when they showed that geocentrism was a fantasy because Earth revolves around the sun (known as heliocentrism). But economics is not like that. It is not like physics with its laws and arithmetic with its absolute values.

Tax policy is something the framers left to politics. And in politics, the facts often matter less then who has the biggest bullhorn.

The Mad Men who once ran campaigns featuring doctors extolling the health benefits of smoking are now busy marketing the dogma that tax cuts mean broad prosperity, no matter what the facts show.

As millions of Americans prepare to file their annual taxes, they do so in an environment of media-perpetuated tax myths. Here are a few points about taxes and the economy that you may not know, to consider as you prepare to file your taxes. (All figures are inflation adjusted.)

1. Poor Americans do pay taxes.

Gretchen Carlson, the Fox News host, said last year “47 percent of Americans don’t pay any taxes.” John McCain and Sarah Palin both said similar things during the 2008 campaign about the bottom half of Americans.

Ari Fleischer, the former Bush White House spokesman, once said “50 percent of the country gets benefits without paying for them.”

Actually, they pay lots of taxes—just not lots of federal income taxes.

Data from the Tax Foundation shows that in 2008, the average income for the bottom half of taxpayers was $15,300.

This year the first $9,350 of income is exempt from taxes for singles and $18,700 for married couples, just slightly more than in 2008. That means millions of the poor do not make enough to owe income taxes.

But they still pay plenty of other taxes, including federal payroll taxes. Between gas taxes, sales taxes, utility taxes, and other taxes, no one lives tax-free in America.

When it comes to state and local taxes, the poor bear a heavier burden than the rich in all 50 states, Citizens for Tax Justice calculated from official data. In Alabama, for example, the burden on the poor is more than twice that of the top 1 percent. The one-fifth of Alabama families making less than $13,000 pay almost 11 percent of their income in state and local taxes, compared with less than 4 percent for those who make $229,000 or more.

2. The wealthiest Americans don’t carry the burden.

This is one of those oft-used canards. Sen. Rand Paul, the tea party favorite from Kentucky, told David Letterman recently that “the wealthy do pay most of the taxes in this country.”

The internet is awash with statements that the top 1 percent pays, depending on the year, 38 percent or more than 40 percent of taxes.

It’s true that the top 1 percent of wage earners paid 38 percent of the federal income taxes in 2008 (the most recent year for which data is available). But people forget that the income tax is less than half of federal taxes and only one-fifth of taxes at all levels of government.

Social Security, Medicare, and unemployment insurance taxes (known as payroll taxes) are paid mostly by the bottom 90 percent of wage earners. That’s because, once you reach $106,800 of income, you pay no more for Social Security, though the much smaller Medicare tax applies to all wages. Warren Buffett pays the exact same amount of Social Security taxes as someone who earns $106,800.

3. In fact, the wealthy are paying less taxes.

The Internal Revenue Service issues an annual report on the 400 highest income-tax payers. In 1961, there were 398 taxpayers who made $1 million or more, so I compared their income tax burdens from that year to 2007.

Despite skyrocketing incomes, the federal tax burden on the richest 400 has been slashed, thanks for a variety of loopholes, allowable deductions, and other tools. The actual share of their income paid in taxes, according to the IRS, is 16.6 percent. Adding payroll taxes barely nudges that number.

Compare that to the vast majority of Americans, whose share of their income going to federal taxes increased from 13.1 percent in 1961 to 22.5 percent in 2007.

(By the way, during seven of the eight Bush years, the IRS report on the top 400 taxpayers was labeled a state secret, a policy that the Obama overturned almost instantly after his inauguration.)

4. Many of the very richest pay no current income taxes at all.

John Paulson, the most successful hedge fund manager of all, bet against the mortgage market one year and then bet with Glenn Beck in the gold market the next. Paulson made himself $9 billion in fees in just two years. His current tax bill on that $9 billion? Zero.

Congress lets hedge fund managers earn all they can now and pay their taxes years from now.

In 2007, Congress debated whether hedge fund managers should pay the top tax rate that applies to wages, bonuses, and other compensation for their labors, which is 35 percent. That tax rate starts at about $300,000 of taxable income; not even pocket change to Paulson, but almost 12 years of gross pay to the median-wage worker.

The Republicans and a key Democrat, Sen. Charles Schumer of New York, fought to keep the tax rate on hedge fund managers at 15 percent, arguing that the profits from hedge funds should be considered capital gains, not ordinary income, which got a lot of attention in the news.

What the news media missed is that hedge fund managers don’t even pay 15 percent. At least, not currently. So long as they leave their money, known as “carried interest,” in the hedge fund, their taxes are deferred. They only pay taxes when they cash out, which could be decades from now for younger managers. How do these hedge fund managers get money in the meantime? By borrowing against the carried interest, often at absurdly low rates—currently about 2 percent.

Lots of other people live tax-free too. According to Donald Trump’s tax records for four years early in his career, he paid no taxes for two of those years. Big real estate investors enjoy tax-free living under a 1993 law then President Bill Clinton signed. It lets “professional” real estate investors use paper losses like depreciation on their buildings against any cash income, even if they end up with negative incomes like Trump.

Frank and Jamie McCourt, who own the Los Angeles Dodgers, have not paid any income taxes since at least 2004, their divorce case revealed. Yet they spent $45 million one year alone. How? They just borrowed against Dodger ticket revenue and other assets. To the IRS, they look like paupers.

In Wisconsin, Terrence Wall, who unsuccessfully sought the Republican nomination for U.S. Senate in 2010, paid no income taxes on as much as $14 million of recent income, his disclosure forms showed. Asked about his living tax-free while working people pay taxes, he had a simple response: Everyone should pay less.

5. And (surprise!) since Reagan, only the wealthy have gained significant income.

The Heritage Foundation, the Cato Institute, and similar conservative marketing organizations tell us relentlessly that lower tax rates will make us all better off.

“When tax rates are reduced, the economy’s growth rate improves and living standards increase,” according to Daniel J. Mitchell, an economist at Heritage until he joined Cato. He says that supply side economics is “the simple notion that lower tax rates will boost work, saving, investment, and entrepreneurship.”

When Reagan was elected president, the marginal tax rate for income was 70 percent. He cut it to 50 percent and then 28 percent starting in 1987. It was raised by George H.W. Bush and Clinton and then cut by George W. Bush. The top rate is now 35 percent.

Since 1980, when President Reagan won election by promising prosperity through tax cuts, the average income of the vast majority—the bottom 90 percent of Americans—has increased a meager $303, or 1 percent. Put another way, each dollar people in the vast majority made in 1980 became $1.01 by 2008.

Those at the top did better. The top 1 percent’s average income more than doubled to $1.1 million, according to an analysis of tax data by economists Thomas Piketty and Emmanuel Saez. The really rich, the top 10th of 1 percent, each enjoyed almost $4 in 2008 for each dollar in 1980.

The top 300,000 Americans now enjoy almost as much income as the bottom 150 million, the data show.

6. When it comes to corporations, the story is much the same—less taxes.

Corporate profits in 2008, the latest year for which data is available, were $1,830 billion, up almost 12 percent from $1,639 billion in 2000. Yet even though corporate tax rates have not been cut, corporate income-tax revenues fell to $230 billion from $249 billion—an 8 percent decline, thanks to a number of loopholes. The official 2010 profit numbers are not added up and released by the government, but the amount paid in corporate taxes is: In 2010 they fell further, to $191 billion—a decline of more than 23 percent compared with 2000.

7. Some corporate tax breaks destroy jobs.

Despite all the noise that America has the world’s second highest corporate tax rate, the actual taxes paid by corporations are falling because of the growing number of loopholes and companies shifting profits to tax havens like the Cayman Islands.

And right now America’s corporations are sitting on close to $2 trillion in cash that is not being used to build factories, create jobs, or anything else, but that acts as an insurance policy for managers unwilling to take the risk of actually building the businesses they are paid so well to run. That cash hoard works out to nearly $13,000 per taxpaying household.

A corporate tax rate that is too low actually destroys jobs. That’s because a higher tax rate encourages businesses (which don’t want to pay taxes) to keep the profits in the business and reinvest, rather than pull them out as profits and have to pay high taxes.

The 2004 American Jobs Creation Act, which passed with bipartisan support, allowed more than 800 companies to bring profits that were untaxed but overseas back to the United States. Instead of paying the usual 35 percent tax, the companies paid just 5.25 percent.

The companies said bringing the money home—“repatriating” it, they called it—would mean lots of jobs. Sen. John Ensign (R-Nev.) put the figure at 660,000 new jobs.

Pfizer, the drug company, was the biggest beneficiary. It brought home $37 billion, saving $11 billion in taxes. Almost immediately it started firing people. Since the law took effect, it has let 40,000 workers go. In all, it appears that at least 100,000 jobs were destroyed.

Now Congressional Republicans and some Democrats are gearing up again to pass another tax holiday, promoting a new Jobs Creation Act. It would affect 10 times as much money as the 2004 law.

8. Republicans like taxes too.

President Reagan signed into law 11 tax increases, targeted at people down the income ladder. His administration and the Washington press corps called the increases “revenue enhancers.” Among other things, Reagan hiked Social Security taxes so high that the government collected more than $2 trillion in surplus tax since 2008.

George W. Bush signed a tax increase too, in 2006, despite his written ironclad pledge to never raise taxes on anyone. It raised taxes on teenagers by requiring kids up to age 17, who earned money, to pay taxes at their parents’ tax rate, which would almost always be higher than the rate they would otherwise pay. It was a story that ran buried inside The New York Times one Sunday, but nowhere else.

In fact, thanks to Republicans, one in three Americans will pay higher taxes this year than they did last year.

First, some history. In 2009, President Obama pushed his own tax cut—for the working class. He persuaded Congress to enact the Making Work Pay Tax Credit. Over the two years 2009 and 2010, it saved single workers up to $800 and married heterosexual couples up to $1,600, even if only one spouse worked. The top 5 percent or so of taxpayers were denied this tax break.

The Obama administration called it “the biggest middle-class tax cut” ever. Yet last December the Republicans, back in control of the House of Representatives, killed Obama’s Making Work Pay Credit while extending the Bush tax cuts for two more years—a policy Obama agreed to.

By doing so, Congressional Republican leaders increased taxes on a third of Americans, all of them the working poor, this year.

As a result, of the 155 million households in the tax system, 51 million will pay an average of $129 more this year. That is $6.6 billion in higher taxes for the working poor, the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center estimated.

In addition, the Republicans changed the rate of workers’ FICA contributions, which finances half of Social Security. The result:

If you are single and make less than $20,000, or married and less than $40,000, you lose under this plan.

But the top 5 percent, people who make more than $106,800, will save $2,136 ($4,272 for two-career couples).

9. Other countries do it better.

We measure our economic progress, and our elected leaders debate tax policy, in terms of a crude measure known as gross domestic product. The way the official statistics are put together, each dollar spent buying solar energy equipment counts the same as each dollar spent investigating murders.

We do not give any measure of value to time spent rearing children or growing our own vegetables or to time off for leisure and community service.

And we do not measure the economic damage done by shocks, such as losing a job, which means not only loss of income and depletion of savings, but loss of health insurance, which a Harvard Medical School study found results in 45,000 unnecessary deaths each year.

Compare this to Germany, one of many countries with a smarter tax system and smarter spending policies.

Germans work less, make more per hour, and get much better parental leave than Americans, many of whom get no fringe benefits such as health care, pensions, or even a retirement savings plan. By many measures the vast majority live better in Germany than in America.

To achieve this, German workers on average pay 52 percent of their income in taxes. Americans average 30 percent, according to the Organizations for Economic Cooperation and Development.

At first blush the German tax burden seems horrendous. But in Germany (as well as Britain, France, Scandinavia, Canada, Australia, and Japan), tax-supported institutions provide many of the things Americans pay for with after-tax dollars. Buying wholesale rather than retail saves money.

A proper comparison would take the 30 percent average tax on American workers and add their out-of-pocket spending on health care, college tuition, and fees for services and compare that with taxes that the average German pays. Add it all up and the combination of tax and personal spending is roughly equal in both countries, but with a large risk of catastrophic loss in America, and a tiny risk in Germany.

Americans take on $85 billion of debt each year for higher education, while college is financed by taxes in Germany and tuition is cheap to free in other modern countries. While soaring medical costs are a key reason that since 1980 bankruptcy in America has increased 15 times faster than population growth, no one in Germany or the rest of the modern world goes broke because of accident or illness. And child poverty in America is the highest among modern countries—almost twice the rate in Germany, which is close to the average of modern countries.

On the corporate tax side, the Germans encourage reinvestment at home and the outsourcing of low-value work, such as auto assembly, and German rules tightly control accounting so that profits earned at home cannot be made to appear as profits earned in tax havens.

Adopting the German system is not the answer for America. But crafting a tax system that benefits the vast majority, reduces risks, provides universal health care, and focuses on diplomacy rather than militarism abroad (and at home) would be a lot smarter than what we have now.

Here is a question to ask yourself: We started down this road with Reagan’s election in 1980 and upped the ante in this century with George W. Bush.

How long does it take to conclude that a policy has failed to fulfill its promises? And as you think of that, keep in mind George Washington. When he fell ill his doctors followed the common wisdom of the era. They cut him and bled him to remove bad blood. As Washington’s condition grew worse, they bled him more. And like the mantra of tax cuts for the rich, they kept applying the same treatment until they killed him.

Luckily we don’t bleed the sick anymore, but we are bleeding our government to death.

http://citypaper.com/news/let-us-count-the-ways-1.1131424
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so sure of themselves, and the wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
"The speaking in perpetual hyperbole is comely in nothing but love" Francis Bacon, Sr.
Voting is like driving a car- choose (D) to go forward- choose (R) to go backwards!
When all think alike, no one thinks very much. Albert Einstein

Offline Junior1942

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1157
  • Gender: Male
    • The Frugal Outdoorsman
Re: TAXES.....The rich pay less....
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2011, 10:39:52 AM »
No, no, no.  Rich people and corporations shouldn't pay taxes.  Oil companies like Exxon-Mobil need their 15% off-the-top depletion allowance tax break increased to its original 29.5% like it was when oil was $2 a barrel.  At least that's what many here will soon start posting.....

Offline Junior1942

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1157
  • Gender: Male
    • The Frugal Outdoorsman
Re: TAXES.....The rich pay less....
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2011, 03:59:52 AM »
Watch whatever Internet news source you use for this headline: "Super rich see federal taxes drop dramatically." 

Any of you middle class conservatives see your federal taxes drop dramatically?

Offline saddlebum

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1694
  • Gender: Male
  • "I ain't never been killed in my life."
Re: TAXES.....The rich pay less....
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2011, 04:02:30 AM »
From Political Math;
Here is a graph showing how the rich make more income and pay even more in taxes. While the  upper middle class pay about the same percentage in taxes as they make. Finally the lower 60% pay less in taxes then their % of the national income.

CLICK TO ENLARGE

http://www.visualizingeconomics.com/2010/02/12/how-much-taxes-are-paid-by-the-poor-middle-class-and-rich

With the Bush tax "cuts" in place.
" FIREARMS STAND NEXT IN IMPORTANCE TO THE CONSTITUTION ITSELF. THEY ARE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE'S LIBERTY TEETH AND KEYSTONE UNDER INDEPENDENCE."       George Washington

“OUR CONSTITUTION WAS MADE ONLY FOR A MORAL AND RELIGIOUS PEOPLE. IT IS WHOLLY INADEQUATE TO THE GOVERNMENT OF ANY OTHER."           John Adams

Offline Cabin4

  • Avery H. Wallace
  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4938
  • Gender: Male
  • Out West
Re: TAXES.....The rich pay less....
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2011, 04:10:28 AM »
Facts are meaningless Saddlebum. Don't waste your time. These Marxists find one rich person or one corp that can skirt the tax laws and they say all the rest do. The facts are never on thier side. Just the political slogans and political thuggery of the left.
Avery Hayden Wallace
Obama Administration: A corrupt criminal enterprise of bold face liars.
The States formed the Union. The Union did not form the States. States Rights!
GET US OUT OF THE UN. NO ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT!
S.A.S.S/NRA Life Member/2nd Amendment Foundation
CCRKBA/Gun Owners of America
California Rifle & Pistol Association
Ron Paul Was Right!
Long Live the King! #3

Offline saddlebum

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1694
  • Gender: Male
  • "I ain't never been killed in my life."
Re: TAXES.....The rich pay less....
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2011, 04:16:20 AM »
@Cabin4

I wasn't planning on wasting anymore time than to just throw that in their face and give them something to be in denial about as they rant socialist delusion. Thanks for the advice though!
" FIREARMS STAND NEXT IN IMPORTANCE TO THE CONSTITUTION ITSELF. THEY ARE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE'S LIBERTY TEETH AND KEYSTONE UNDER INDEPENDENCE."       George Washington

“OUR CONSTITUTION WAS MADE ONLY FOR A MORAL AND RELIGIOUS PEOPLE. IT IS WHOLLY INADEQUATE TO THE GOVERNMENT OF ANY OTHER."           John Adams

Offline Junior1942

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1157
  • Gender: Male
    • The Frugal Outdoorsman
Re: TAXES.....The rich pay less....
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2011, 04:20:36 AM »
Here's a certified fact: middle class Republican guys with maybe sick wives and kids in college vote the same way oil company executives vote.

Offline magooch

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6624
Re: TAXES.....The rich pay less....
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2011, 05:25:39 AM »
Any time it takes that many words to rationalize and justify a warped thinking, you know it has to be b.s.  What I know is this: The more money I make, the more taxes I pay.  If there are allowances in the tax laws that give oil companies and other businesses to take deductions and they are unjustified, then why didn't the Dumbycrats change those laws when they had complete control of the government?

Recently a stupid Dumbycrat made a statement that companies like G.E. who hide profits from foreign operations overseas will not be allowed to continue this practice.  In other words, the business will be taxed on their entire profits, even those that are made in other countries.  How long do you think it would take for those companies to either move completely out of the U.S. , or just form a different out of country company?  That would require logical thinking and I know that does not happen with Dumycrats.
Swingem

Offline crustylicious

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 697
  • Reading is fundamental, comprehension optional!
Re: TAXES.....The rich pay less....
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2011, 05:32:54 AM »
Sound bites are killing us  ;)
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so sure of themselves, and the wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
"The speaking in perpetual hyperbole is comely in nothing but love" Francis Bacon, Sr.
Voting is like driving a car- choose (D) to go forward- choose (R) to go backwards!
When all think alike, no one thinks very much. Albert Einstein

Offline jimster

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2237
  • Gender: Male
Re: TAXES.....The rich pay less....
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2011, 06:01:58 AM »
I just wish the left wing progressives would stop pointing at other people's money and coveting it,  and just stop spending.

If you just took all the money that every corporation and wealthy person had and liquidate it, give it to the government, it would not put a dent in even the interest we owe, and then congress would triple spending because they got a little dab of money, it would all be gone within 6 months time, and unemployment would skyrocket to probably 90 percent to boot.  Ya...good plan...same plan we been using to get us in this mess. 

Just stop spending...same thing we all do when times get tough.  This plan of grabbing other people's money won't work, it never did, it never will. Stop the spending. That will work.  It's the only thing that ever works for anyone, governments have the same math we do. 


Offline Junior1942

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1157
  • Gender: Male
    • The Frugal Outdoorsman
Re: TAXES.....The rich pay less....
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2011, 06:21:50 AM »
Stop spending, huh?  I guess we could kick people out of ERs and nursing homes, huh?  What we need to do is to stop cutting taxes for billionaire individuals and trillionaire corporations.  It's simple economics.  If your intake is exceeded by your outgo, your upkeep will be your downfall. So we must either kick grandma out of the nursing home, decrease the outgo, or reverse the Bushites tax breaks for the ultra-wealthy, increase the intake.  Our downfall is around the corner.

One thought to keep in mind--even a lowly millionaire can afford his grandma's nursing home bill.  Can you?  Around here, it's $2500 to $3000 a month.

Offline jimster

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2237
  • Gender: Male
Re: TAXES.....The rich pay less....
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2011, 06:45:30 AM »
Stop spending, huh?  I guess we could kick people out of ERs and nursing homes, huh?  What we need to do is to stop cutting taxes for billionaire individuals and trillionaire corporations.  It's simple economics.  If your intake is exceeded by your outgo, your upkeep will be your downfall. So we must either kick grandma out of the nursing home, decrease the outgo, or reverse the Bushites tax breaks for the ultra-wealthy, increase the intake.  Our downfall is around the corner.

One thought to keep in mind--even a lowly millionaire can afford his grandma's nursing home bill.  Can you?  Around here, it's $2500 to $3000 a month.

Pure rhetoric.....last time government cut spending back in 95/96, Grandma did OK...mine is still around at 95...she made it through just fine.  No old people died from it.

Your math is not only flawed, it is not math at all...your entire post is just the same thing we been hearing since I was alive, and is the cause for the mess we are in now.

If your worried about someones grandma...stop looking at my money, and chip in with your own.  Government does not help grandma at all, they never did, they never will.  Your tax money is going through 100 government offices and there ain't nothing coming out the other side.   

You take care of grandma...it's your job...I take care of mine, government just gets in the way of that.   And yes...I take care of my grandma.
It's hard because people like you are draining my money with all your retoric....but I still manage it. 

Stop looking at other people's money...it has wrecked our country.




Offline Junior1942

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1157
  • Gender: Male
    • The Frugal Outdoorsman
Re: TAXES.....The rich pay less....
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2011, 07:00:36 AM »
You Bushite's continued cycle of tax breaks to the ultra-wealthy have wrecked our country.  It will either have to stop or we will have to drastically cut or eliminate Medicare and Social Security.

Offline Junior1942

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1157
  • Gender: Male
    • The Frugal Outdoorsman
Re: TAXES.....The rich pay less....
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2011, 08:27:35 AM »
That's the best post you've made so far, TM7.

Offline jimster

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2237
  • Gender: Male
Re: TAXES.....The rich pay less....
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2011, 10:26:05 AM »
Quote
You Bushite's continued cycle of tax breaks to the ultra-wealthy have wrecked our country.


Your first problem...and it's a big one...is thinking everyone that does not agree with you is a Bush supporter, it clouds your thought pattern.

The truth is your way of thinking is no different than the Dem legislation that Bush signed. You just don't realize it.  I see no difference between you and Bush or the Dem congress that gave legislation for Bush to sign.  You are all the same to me.  You are actually amazingly close to Bush in my eyes, the only reason you can't see that is because of some "party" thing.  Political parties don't mean anything to me. All the same.

You can have all the wealth you think is out there by these ultra rich...go ahead and take it, absolutely nothing will change with that money in the hands of the people you support.  It will only get worse, because it's the same flawed process of thought that got you where you are today.  The math does not work out.

"Their money"...will get you nothing but more spending...it would not last 6 months under your plan, which is the same plan you've been using for years. 

People need to find their own money now, redistribution ain't working so well, because nobody is generating it, they just want it.

Rather than get into all this worthless ideology we only need to spend less than we take in, it's called a budget.
I notice the Dems had the house, the senate, and the white house and still could not do a budget before the 2010 elections...so what exactly are you trying to sell me?  You want to slap the reps around in your spare time, I'll help you do that, but lets get real here, the dems are so bad that if there was no such thing as another party...they would still be worthless losers and wreck the entire country with no republicans at all...matter of fact, they just proved that is exactly what they will do.   


Offline saddlebum

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1694
  • Gender: Male
  • "I ain't never been killed in my life."
Re: TAXES.....The rich pay less....
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2011, 10:56:44 AM »
Your first problem...and it's a big one...is thinking everyone that does not agree with you is a Bush supporter, it clouds your thought pattern.

@jimster

I tried to explain to someone on the forum the other day that refering to Bush or "Bushites",in this case, doesn't cut it anymore. Guess I'll repost it again here in an effort to enlighten Junior.


I'm not sticking up for Bush, but until the Dems took control in congress in 2006, things weren't that bad. Especially compared to today, 5yrs later. Unless you just choose to ignore all the factual evidence.
It seems that the more power Dems get, the worse things get if one looks at the 11yr history.

Besides, if all you have is Bush bashing for an explaination after the last 2yrs of nation killing policies from Dems, then you really don't have anything.
The biggest complaints about Bush are the Iraq war and running up the the deficit and national debt.
What Bush ran up in 8yrs, Obama has tripled in 2yrs.
And now Obama is carrying on operations that Bush started in Iraq, increased action in Afganistan, encouraged revolution in Egypt, and now has his own war in Libya. Who's a war monger?

Most people know that Bush bashing doesn't cut it anymore!

Obama has set a new standard!

" FIREARMS STAND NEXT IN IMPORTANCE TO THE CONSTITUTION ITSELF. THEY ARE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE'S LIBERTY TEETH AND KEYSTONE UNDER INDEPENDENCE."       George Washington

“OUR CONSTITUTION WAS MADE ONLY FOR A MORAL AND RELIGIOUS PEOPLE. IT IS WHOLLY INADEQUATE TO THE GOVERNMENT OF ANY OTHER."           John Adams

Offline Junior1942

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1157
  • Gender: Male
    • The Frugal Outdoorsman
Re: TAXES.....The rich pay less....
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2011, 11:26:13 AM »
>the dems are so bad that if there was no such thing as another party...they would still be worthless losers and wreck the entire country with no republicans at all...matter of fact, they just proved that is exactly what they will do.   

So in your opinion the USA was in fine shape when GWB left office?  Wrong.  His tax the middle class philosophy had the USA and indeed the world on the brink of Great Depression #2.  It's plain to see that lowering taxes on the wealthy to decrease the deficit had exactly the opposite effect.  Lower them again, and the deficit hole gets deeper.  But never fear.  If the tea party people gain more power, the hole will become un-fill-able.  Social Security and Medicare are gone.  When they go, so will this country go.  Most hospitals and almost all nursing homes will close.  We'll get to see firsthand the effects of a Great Depression.  I believe it's inevitable, and I don't believe the country will survive it.

And if you think I agree with Obama 100% you better think again.  His bailouts--started by Bush--went WAY too far.  AIG should have closed.  The Wall-Street busted banks should have closed.  GM and Chrysler should have closed.  I give GM and Chrysler no more than 10 years before they will need another bailout.  The fox/UAW now has control over the henhouse checkbook.

But I also believe that without any Bush/Obama bailouts we'd be in Great Depression #2 this very minute.

Offline Swampman

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (44)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16518
  • Gender: Male
Re: TAXES.....The rich pay less....
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2011, 12:09:52 PM »
There are few things I hate more than class envy.  I wish we just had a 25% sales tax.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline mirage1988

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (6)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1665
Re: TAXES.....The rich pay less....
« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2011, 12:25:12 PM »


But I also believe that without any Bush/Obama bailouts we'd be in Great Depression #2 this very minute.

What are we in right now? 18 percent unemployment and the fed printing money trying to keep wall street propped up. Have you tried looking for a job lately?

Offline Cabin4

  • Avery H. Wallace
  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4938
  • Gender: Male
  • Out West
Re: TAXES.....The rich pay less....
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2011, 12:28:24 PM »
First the argument was the rich, business and corp don;t pay any taxes. Now its thier income is sky rocketing.

Like I said, the facts are worthless with the leftists. The facts are the rich, business and corp pay the majority of the taxes.
Avery Hayden Wallace
Obama Administration: A corrupt criminal enterprise of bold face liars.
The States formed the Union. The Union did not form the States. States Rights!
GET US OUT OF THE UN. NO ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT!
S.A.S.S/NRA Life Member/2nd Amendment Foundation
CCRKBA/Gun Owners of America
California Rifle & Pistol Association
Ron Paul Was Right!
Long Live the King! #3

Offline saddlebum

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1694
  • Gender: Male
  • "I ain't never been killed in my life."
Re: TAXES.....The rich pay less....
« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2011, 12:35:18 PM »
So in your opinion the USA was in fine shape when GWB left office?
Junior

No wonder you are so screwed up. Read my post again. I said better before Dems took congress in '06. We were on a shallow slope before then with Bush, compared to when the Dems started carrying out their failing policies in congress in '06 .We have been snowballing out of control to the cliff ever since! If you were honest and could comprehend what you read in my post you would notice I said 5yrs ago. Not two and a half. So since you obviously can't handle 5th grade math, heck no I was not happy about 2yrs of a Dem controled congress when Bush left office. I'm sure you are more confused now so why don't you put your headphones on, turn up Jon Stewart and the Daily Show, (your favorite 'news' outlet), and stick your head back in the sand. Maybe you can learn some new liberal talking points before you go back to sleep!

Oh! If it helps you to do the counting on your fingers, Bush left office at the end of '08!  (2.5yrs ago not 5)  ;D
" FIREARMS STAND NEXT IN IMPORTANCE TO THE CONSTITUTION ITSELF. THEY ARE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE'S LIBERTY TEETH AND KEYSTONE UNDER INDEPENDENCE."       George Washington

“OUR CONSTITUTION WAS MADE ONLY FOR A MORAL AND RELIGIOUS PEOPLE. IT IS WHOLLY INADEQUATE TO THE GOVERNMENT OF ANY OTHER."           John Adams

Offline Junior1942

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1157
  • Gender: Male
    • The Frugal Outdoorsman
Re: TAXES.....The rich pay less....
« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2011, 12:43:49 PM »
So in your opinion the USA was in fine shape when GWB left office?
Junior

No wonder you are so screwed up. Read my post again. I said better before Dems took congress in '06. We were on a shallow slope before then with Bush, compared to when the Dems started carrying out their failing policies in congress in '06 .We have been snowballing out of control to the cliff ever since! If you were honest and could comprehend what you read in my post you would notice I said 5yrs ago. Not two and a half. So since you obviously can't handle 5th grade math, heck no I was not happy about 2yrs of a Dem controled congress when Bush left office. I'm sure you are more confused now so why don't you put your headphones on, turn up Jon Stewart and the Daily Show, (your favorite 'news' outlet), and stick your head back in the sand. Maybe you can learn some new liberal talking points before you go back to sleep!

Oh! If it helps you to do the counting on your fingers, Bush left office at the end of '08!  (2.5yrs ago not 5)  ;D
Are you sober?  Bush left office at the beginning of 2009.   Who's Jon Stewart?

Offline jimster

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2237
  • Gender: Male
Re: TAXES.....The rich pay less....
« Reply #22 on: April 17, 2011, 12:46:39 PM »
Quote
But I also believe that without any Bush/Obama bailouts we'd be in Great Depression #2 this very minute.

Not me...I don't let all the fear mongering get to me, I have common sense.  A few big banks with bad practices can go under, there were plenty of banks left that was not in trouble.  And bailing out private compaines is just plain crazy.  Besides...the bail out money was misused anyways...so I guess that right there tells you they never needed it.  Our company remodeled Goldman Sachs...that's what they did with their bail out money as an example. Many of us were not happy about that and didn't want their business, but we don't run the place.  So there is your bail outs...and there goes your theory of needing the bail outs.  All smoke and mirrors.  I always laugh when I hear about how we had to spend my tax money to keep me from going into a depression. 

I don't believe in bailing out things that spend too much money or make bad decisions for any reason, let them go under. 
The problem is our government knows they will be going under next and they are starting to scream...the only way our large bloated government can continue on is convince people their massive spending is needed....it's a survival thing. 

The pointing at the wealthy and corporations or anywhere they think there is more money to confiscate and spend is pathetic...but it's all part of the dieing process.  Best to let a portion of the government die out, rather than take out the rest of the private sector first...but either way, sooner or later, the government will shrink and it won't be a quiet affair on their way down.  Right now a lot of the country who depend on "other peoples money" are making these same noises on their way out, it's normal.  Detroit was VERY loud before it died, A city ran by unions and left wing politicians and spending tax payers money like crazy.  Boy did they scream on the way out, but it didn't matter, the money was gone and they would not stop spending it.  So they died.  Math won in the end, not politics. 


 


Offline saddlebum

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1694
  • Gender: Male
  • "I ain't never been killed in my life."
Re: TAXES.....The rich pay less....
« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2011, 01:53:55 PM »
I will have to retract a little piece of sarcasm there, Junior, concerning Jon Stewart. I got you mixed up with spikehorn who once said he got his news from Stewart and Cobert. You may get your liberal talking points from somewhere else, I don't know.........Sorry!

(you do know that the end of '08 is the same as the begining of '09.....right?)   :)
" FIREARMS STAND NEXT IN IMPORTANCE TO THE CONSTITUTION ITSELF. THEY ARE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE'S LIBERTY TEETH AND KEYSTONE UNDER INDEPENDENCE."       George Washington

“OUR CONSTITUTION WAS MADE ONLY FOR A MORAL AND RELIGIOUS PEOPLE. IT IS WHOLLY INADEQUATE TO THE GOVERNMENT OF ANY OTHER."           John Adams

Offline Junior1942

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1157
  • Gender: Male
    • The Frugal Outdoorsman
Re: TAXES.....The rich pay less....
« Reply #24 on: April 17, 2011, 02:44:37 PM »
I will have to retract a little piece of sarcasm there, Junior, concerning Jon Stewart. I got you mixed up with spikehorn who once said he got his news from Stewart and Cobert. You may get your liberal talking points from somewhere else, I don't know.........Sorry!

(you do know that the end of '08 is the same as the begining of '09.....right?)   :)
:)  Hey, what's a month or so.... ;D  But I still don't know who Jon Stewart is????

To jimster: math will always win in the end.  However, you won't like the coming 2012 total.

Offline Cabin4

  • Avery H. Wallace
  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4938
  • Gender: Male
  • Out West
Re: TAXES.....The rich pay less....
« Reply #25 on: April 17, 2011, 03:35:33 PM »
Here's the only thing that matters:

Debt when Clinton left office= $5.674 trillion

Debt when Bush left office= $9.849 trillion

Debt now under Obama= $14.243 trillon as of today.

So while it took Bush 8 years to raise the debt 4trillion, its only taken Obama 2 years to raise it 4 trillion (the same amount it took Bush 8 years) . Obama's annual budget calls for adding $1.7 trillion to the debt every year from here on out. If he makes it through his second term and per his current budget plan, the debt will reach about $24 trillion. If things don;t change this country will never make it that far. We will default on the interest payment alone.

It is criminal whats happening but the leftist love it. They want to destroy our system of government so they have a chance to implement a new society.
Avery Hayden Wallace
Obama Administration: A corrupt criminal enterprise of bold face liars.
The States formed the Union. The Union did not form the States. States Rights!
GET US OUT OF THE UN. NO ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT!
S.A.S.S/NRA Life Member/2nd Amendment Foundation
CCRKBA/Gun Owners of America
California Rifle & Pistol Association
Ron Paul Was Right!
Long Live the King! #3

Offline us920669

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • *****
  • Posts: 529
Re: TAXES.....The rich pay less....
« Reply #26 on: April 18, 2011, 05:11:21 AM »
The issues being discussed here are very complex - there are too many moving parts to be treated all at once.  However, it is a mistake to lay America's decline on supply side economics.  Some of us can recall the economy Reagan inherited - raging inflation and stagnant growth.  One advantage Reagan had was a sane Fed chairman, but that's a story for another day.  Reagan's chief concern, by his own account, was to manage the decline of the Soviet Union, in other words close out what might be called the War of the 20th Century that started in 1914 and ended in 1989.  So Reagan's huge deficits, which look paltry today, were entirely justified, and his success quite possibly saved the world from a fate to harrowing to contemplate.

Unfortunately, as the last man standing, the US found itself in the position of the gunslinger who killed the previous top gunslinger.  New gunslingers are crawling out of the woodwork for a chance to dust us off, including some of our so-called "allies".  The problem was exacerbated by the clumsy manner in which we conducted ourselves.  I may have raised a few hackles in another post by expressing my disappointment with Bush Sr, but when he handed the country over to Clinton, our openly corrupt president, our fate was sealed.

Yes, there are a lot of rich people around.  Some are the kind of amoral monsters portrayed in the "Wall Street" movies, but all they are doing is responding to the rewards and incentives they see.  Many others, the ones most likely to caught up in a "tax the rich" frenzy, are small business and self-employed people who are the real heroes of the day - the ones who provide the jobs.  Fewer and fewer people these days work for Ford or IBM.  More and more are working for Jack's Garage or Joe's Home Improvement.  Jack and Joe busted their butts and took enormous risks to create these opportunities and they often report their business income through their personal taxes, so statistics on "the wealthy" can be very misleading.  Even Obama and his team know this.

Which brings us to the government.  The government today consists of whole buildings full of people who spend their day passing notes back and forth like sixth graders, and it doesn't end there.  Sometimes these notes get out the door and bleed Jack and Joe white with taxes or suffocate them with regulations.  Don't blame the people in government - they have kids and dogs and some even go to church.  They too are responding to rewards and incentives.  They will believe until their dying day that they are on a great moral crusade to save the planet from - whatever it is today.  This is why raising taxes will not help, why the supply siders were actually right.  The moment the people in government even smell new revenues, they will spend it and half again as much.  Some will be spent on candy for us - another entitlement or a bridge to nowhere or whatever.  Somewhere in this forum a man actually hopes a new prison will be built near his hometown, to provide jobs for his neighbors.  I understand but I can not approve.  More of it will be spent crushing Jack and Joe.  Unfortunately, the only way for government spending to help Jack and Joe is to give them money for something we don't really need, basically crushing all the other Jacks and Joes.

There are no easy answers.  Deficits and inflation are much worse than are being reported.  Something wicked this way comes.  I probably wont be around to see the worst of it - I really belong on Greybeard - but I have grandkids, and sometimes I get a little emotional thinking about them.  Their daddy is not named Jack or Joe, but he is one of them. I pray that he will be allowed to succeed.

Offline 45-70.gov

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (7)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7009
  • Gender: Male
Re: TAXES.....The rich pay less....
« Reply #27 on: April 18, 2011, 07:05:26 AM »
just  face it and shut  up

the rich [smarter]  will continue to get richer

the  poor [stupid]  will continue to be poor

poltitions will continue  to rob a rich man to buy 5 poor votes
and  call   that  ''EQUALITY ''    when it is just  '' theivery''

if you are poor in america....its because you are stupid,,,,,just that simple
when drugs are outlawed only out laws will have drugs
DO WHAT EVER IT TAKES TO STOP A DEMOCRAT
OBAMACARE....the biggest tax hike in the  history of mankind
free choice and equality  can't co-exist
AFTER THE LIBYAN COVER-UP... remind any  democrat voters ''they sat and  watched them die''...they  told help to ''stand down''

many statements made here are fiction and are for entertainment purposes only and are in no way to be construed as a description of actual events.
no one is encouraged to do anything dangerous or break any laws.

Offline Swampman

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (44)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16518
  • Gender: Male
Re: TAXES.....The rich pay less....
« Reply #28 on: April 18, 2011, 07:21:21 AM »
Or perhaps just uneducated?
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline 45-70.gov

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (7)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7009
  • Gender: Male
Re: TAXES.....The rich pay less....
« Reply #29 on: April 18, 2011, 07:27:45 AM »
i am  uneducated

or  had  u not  noetist  mi spelin

am  am  55 and no need to work any more
this is a great country we live in.....let the poor starve....or loose their  vices
when drugs are outlawed only out laws will have drugs
DO WHAT EVER IT TAKES TO STOP A DEMOCRAT
OBAMACARE....the biggest tax hike in the  history of mankind
free choice and equality  can't co-exist
AFTER THE LIBYAN COVER-UP... remind any  democrat voters ''they sat and  watched them die''...they  told help to ''stand down''

many statements made here are fiction and are for entertainment purposes only and are in no way to be construed as a description of actual events.
no one is encouraged to do anything dangerous or break any laws.