Author Topic: air traffic controllers  (Read 1000 times)

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Offline XD40SC

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air traffic controllers
« on: April 17, 2011, 03:18:35 AM »
Are air traffic controllers unionized since R. Reagan fired them for going on strike ?

Offline briarpatch

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Re: air traffic controllers
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2011, 04:13:30 AM »
They surely must be. Most are found asleep at the job now.  8)

Online magooch

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Re: air traffic controllers
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2011, 04:27:15 AM »
My question is, why the heck are air traffic controllers guvmint employees?  Are the people who control rail traffic guvmint workers; are bus and cab dispatchers guvmint workers?  Yeah, air traffic is more complicated than that, but why must government have it's sticky fingers into everything. 
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Offline Hooker

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Re: air traffic controllers
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2011, 05:33:28 AM »
Interface?
Does that mean they take naps together? :o

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Offline Shu

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Re: air traffic controllers
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2011, 07:35:55 AM »
Airtraffic controllers work for the Federal Aviation Administration. The reason being to try to standardize flight operations so everyone would be on the same page about aircrafts comings and goings. A few sleeping on the job are not representative of all of them. I have been in the tower visiting and you talk about a high stress job. No thank you sir, I'll pass.

Offline XD40SC

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Re: air traffic controllers
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2011, 10:23:23 AM »
but are they unionized????

Offline Shu

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Re: air traffic controllers
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2011, 11:06:04 AM »
I don't know if they are unionized are not, I look at that as don't ask don't tell.

Offline tallyho

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Re: air traffic controllers
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2011, 12:32:47 PM »
http://www.natca.org/

If they are not actually an official "Union" they certainly act like one. Check out their Executive vice-president's union credentials http://natca.unionlaborworks.com/executive_board.aspx?zone=Executive%20Board&pID=178#p178

My answer is "Yup they are unionized."
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Online magooch

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Re: air traffic controllers
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2011, 04:04:19 AM »
I don't know, nor care whether air traffic controllers have a union, but I did hear on the news that their union suggested that the controllers who have trouble staying awake should be given 2 1/2 hour nap breaks.  That didn't go over too well with Ray the Hood (Transportation Secretary).
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Offline BBF

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Re: air traffic controllers
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2011, 09:04:26 AM »
They surely must be. Most are found asleep at the job now.  8)

 Somehow I don't find that comment amusing. :(
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: air traffic controllers
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2011, 09:31:27 AM »
They surely must be. Most are found asleep at the job now.  8)

 Somehow I don't find that comment amusing. :(
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Offline XD40SC

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Re: air traffic controllers
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2011, 11:27:41 AM »
I have a flight to catch next week. I'm sure everything will be straightened out by then. ::)

Offline us920669

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Re: air traffic controllers
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2011, 11:38:52 AM »
It's probably way overblown, like most of the stuff the media finds.  It was only in the middle of the night when there is hardly any traffic.  They only need controllers when there is a lot of traffic since pilots can usually find the runway by themselves.

Offline XD40SC

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Re: air traffic controllers
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2011, 12:12:42 PM »
Tell that to the pilot with the medical emergency and the patient.

Offline tallyho

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Re: air traffic controllers
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2011, 12:22:14 PM »
I was an air traffic controller for 5 years, and a pilot for 40+ years. What us920669 said is pretty much true.

And by the way the word "controller" is part of the problem. The reality is, legally, and practically, the pilot controls the airplane. ATC provides information to pilots and provides separation between airplanes inside the various categories of "controlled" airspace. ATC does not legally "control" anything or any airspace. ATC is simply the agency that pilots agree to work with and accept "clearances" from in order to maintain a safe, orderly, efficient flow of air traffic.

When the press reports that an aircraft "landed without help from ATC" I generally stifle a yawn. Aircraft are doing that every hour of every day. Pilots only require information and clearances from ATC in dense traffic areas, or in instrument flight conditions (i.e. simplified as crappy weather) where they cannot be expected to see for themselves where other aircraft might be.

As evidenced by the fact that in every publicized incident over the last couple of weeks where a "controller" was asleep, various aircraft landed safely without help from ATC. My goodness how can that be??? :o

My suggestion is that the Feds and the ATC union grand poo-bahs, rather than reacting with drama and insisting on more controllers on duty during boring er... not busy times consider whether controllers should even be on duty at boring er.. not busy times.

By the way, you may not know it but the Feds and the Union apparently agree to schedule more staff at those boring er.. not busy facilities without actually hiring more staff! That just means more people are going to do more shiftwork... leading to - you guessed it - more opportunity for disrupted circadian rhythm problems and more likelihood of sleeping "controllers". A perfect bureaucratic solution doncha know!

Tell that to the pilot with the medical emergency and the patient.
Didn't that pilot manage to land okay without any input from the tower... or did he/she panic then crash and burn because he/she couldn't handle the airplane without ATC's help? It may have been slightly inconvenient, and maybe even annoying, but show me the evidence that it was in any way dangerous!

By the way, do not assume I approve of folks sleeping during duty hours by anything I comment here. I don't approve, I just believe that for dramatic and political reasons this is being over dramatized. Much the same way the press and many political figures over dramatize firearms ownership.

When I worked in ATC our facility (a tower) closed at 10pm every night for years, and the few aircraft operating through the night still managed to come and go safely without our "help".
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Offline tallyho

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Re: air traffic controllers
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2011, 12:33:39 PM »
Just read this after posting my previous comment. This is an actual and serious concern - ATC losing separation between two aircraft.
One small picky point however: in the article it says a couple of times that controllers "ordered" the Obama plane to do various things... as best I recall, by law ATC does not issue orders, they issue clearances, which may or may not be accepted by pilots under circumstances. And that being said, it does make for drama in news reports, and it gives ATC some credibility for having the word "control" in their name!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/plane-with-michelle-obama-had-to-abort-landing-due-to-mistake/2011/04/19/AFsRLC7D_story.html?wpisrc=al_national
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Offline powderman

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Re: air traffic controllers
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2011, 12:39:16 PM »
From what news said mgt must share the blame. I understand that they do like wm and schedule several different shifts a week, just now being given 9 hours between shifts. Doen't take long and your body isn't sure whether it's time tto eat, sleep, work, or go to the bathroon. It's extremely stressful and will wear you out. In wm case it's intentionally done to cause stress. Dunno with the traffic controllers unless the ones doing the scheduling are just STOOPID. POWDERMAN.  :o :o
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Offline tallyho

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Re: air traffic controllers
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2011, 12:51:19 PM »
What's "wm"?
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Offline Old Fart

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Re: air traffic controllers
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2011, 03:50:55 PM »
I believe he's talking about Wally Mart.
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Offline powderman

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Re: air traffic controllers
« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2011, 05:07:04 PM »
TALLYHO. Sorry, yes, I meant walmart. POWDERMAN.  ;D ;D
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

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Offline Cabin4

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Re: air traffic controllers
« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2011, 05:18:37 PM »
I remember when Reagan fired all the PATCO employees. That was great. They deserved to be fired.
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Offline BBF

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Re: air traffic controllers
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2011, 08:09:09 AM »
Don't know about ATC's but had years of rotating shift work. With a young family tyring to get some uninterrupted sleep is impossible. That wears a body out very quickly and makes you an accident waiting to happen.
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Offline Sourdough

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Re: air traffic controllers
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2011, 10:09:11 AM »
Yea, it seems a big mess with ATCs falling asleep.  So what.  if this was a high traffic area there would be multiple ATCs on duty.  As it was there was so little traffic the guys got bored, and fell asleep.  Shame on them, reprimand them, but don't fire them, they are too hard to replace, and don't put them on a single maned position again.

I used to fly, and I would often go into airports with no ATC.  All the incoming traffic announce themselves, and anyone else in the area knows you are approaching the field.  Anyone else going in will ask your position, and they will tell you theirs.  The closest one enters the approach pattern first, and goes in first, followed by the second one.  Unless someone declares an emergency, they go straight in.

Some airfields up here are only manned during the day.  At night keying your radio will turn on the approach and airfield lights, if you have a radio.  If you ndon't have a radio, your on your own.

I've owned four air planes and only one had radios and nav aids.  That one was fully instrument rated, I was not, but the plane was.  Of the other three two only had a compass, that's what is required. 
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Offline mirage1988

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Re: air traffic controllers
« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2011, 10:24:04 AM »
Tallyho-
In the mrs "o" incident the plane she was in a national guard 737. Shouldn't the pilot ultimately be the one responsible to know the following distance behind a freighter? The news all made it sound like they almost clipped wings, but it turns out that they just had to go around because they got a little close.

Offline Cabin4

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Re: air traffic controllers
« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2011, 10:56:59 AM »
ATC are government employees. What else would we expect. Falling asleep on that job is the norm, not the exception.
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Offline tallyho

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Re: air traffic controllers
« Reply #25 on: April 21, 2011, 06:15:12 PM »
Tallyho-
In the mrs "o" incident the plane she was in a national guard 737. Shouldn't the pilot ultimately be the one responsible to know the following distance behind a freighter? The news all made it sound like they almost clipped wings, but it turns out that they just had to go around because they got a little close.

Mirage, yeah the news was very much over dramatized. As I read on an aviation forum, what happened was that one control facility passed the 737 to the Andrews tower with a 3 mile separation, which in most circumstances is normal. However for smaller aircraft following behind a "heavy" - and believe me a C17 is a heavy compared to a 737 - it is not unusual to have 5 miles separation for the following aircraft because of potential wake turbulence from the heavy.

Now, don't get me wrong, turbulence behind one of those monsters can flip a smaller airplane under the right conditions, or at the very least make for a very uncomfortable approach and landing. The 737 pilot and the tower attempted to add to the time separation by doing "S" turns on the approach, but it wasn't really adding enough space, so the "go-around" was chosen.

Technically it wasn't "loss of separation" more like "lost of comfort zone" (a non official term I just made up) and ultimately  "go-around" was chosen to let any possible turbulence dissipate. Since it was Mrs. O on board, I suspect the pilots and controllers wanted the ride to be as smooth as possible, because the pilot could have chosen to land anyway, and some pilots with less significant passengers aboard conceivably would have taken the landing. There are some techniques that a following pilot could use to avoid wake turbulence, but they are variable, and depend on local terrain, meteorological and runway conditions to be successful.

I completely agree with the 737 pilot having made the choice to go-around just to take the extra time and precaution. I'd be very surprised if why he/she chose a go-around had anything at all to do with potential danger to either aircraft.

From the information I saw there was nothing even close to "almost clipped wings". The pilots and controllers simply allowed for more time to allow possible wake turbulence dissipate, and making the landing for the 737 more smooth and comfortable. Not a bad decision under the circumstances.
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Offline mirage1988

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Re: air traffic controllers
« Reply #26 on: April 21, 2011, 08:14:10 PM »
The headlines when it first happened were like "close call at the airport for michelle" was one that I saw.

Unfortunately when these things happen the do-gooders think they have to make more rules and regulations to save us from ourselves and anything that might have a slight chance of hurting us. Sorry about the rant-had to get it out :D

Offline SteveHawaii

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Re: air traffic controllers
« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2011, 10:25:16 PM »
What happened to Obama's aircraft is technically called an Operational Error, which means that the controller made a mistake.  Most controller mistakes are procedural and happen all the time, because there are so many rules and lots of opportunities.  Controllers by in large have a pretty tough job.  That's why they have a 20 year mandatory retirement.

In my honest opinion, I think the current feeding frenzy is just that.  Lots of hype.  The press does the same thing when there's an accident of some sensational aviation event.  All of a sudden the sky is falling.  Every little thing gets national coverage.  This too will pass.
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Offline us920669

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Re: air traffic controllers
« Reply #28 on: April 22, 2011, 06:52:51 AM »
I agree completely.  With complex systems, you just have to get good people and then trust their judgement.  So many problems are caused when the supergrades come down and clean house, usually just trying to keep their butts out of the wringer on something completely unrelated.

I guess pilots are reading this, let me tell you about something that happened back in I think '79.  There was an incident that got a lot of coverage.  A plane flying at altitude suddenly had the wing rip completely apart - plane tumbled down totally out of control.  Guys in the cockpit stayed cool, tried everything, finally dropped the wheels, which must have cleared out the wreckage and made the plane flyable enough to land.  Pilot was hailed as a hero, then got in trouble because he was flying with the slats extended to get a bit more speed.  That's the front part of the wing, never supposed to be out because the wind might do just what it did.  Well, I was flying back from South Carolina, I think spring '79, looking out the window as usual, and I saw the slats come out.  I didn't know anything, I thought "Oh cool, they move too". I still remember, he pushed them out maybe 6 or 8 inches, them pulled them back a bit.  That guy was certainly in a hurry - the flight was late and he had a VIP on board, one of Carter's cabinet secretaries.  Maybe even the same pilot.  Guess I'm pretty lucky.  I thought about reporting it back then but decided not to get involved.

Offline Pat/Rick

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Re: air traffic controllers
« Reply #29 on: April 22, 2011, 10:06:01 AM »
sleeping on the job should lead to dismissal, just like in the real world.