Author Topic: Advice on powder (Read 1529 times)

Rayfan87 · « **on:** April 17, 2011, 01:05:24 PM »

Recently I've been looking at flintlock rifles, I've decided if I do get one I'll get some Goex to shoot it. Between this rifle and my cannons I'm thinking a 5 lb order from Powder Inc at a 4:1 Ffg to fffg ratio. Since I still have almost a full pound of pyrodex I figure if I really need to I can either use the pyrodex on it own or mix it with some of the Goex to extend it's life. Anybody got any recommendations?

gulfcoastblackpowder · « **Reply #1 on:** April 17, 2011, 03:06:57 PM »

Most people will tell you that when you start mixing, the results aren't nearly as predictable as if you are working a load with a single powder. I've never messed with pyrodex, so I can't give you any tips. Depending on the bore size, the 2f may work as the primary charge in the flintlock, though I prefer 3f for anything smaller than a musket (~.58 or less). You'll also need some 4f for prime if you don't already have it. You probably won't go through 1lb of 4f in most of a lifetime, depending on your shooting habits.

Rayfan87 · « **Reply #2 on:** April 17, 2011, 03:24:57 PM »

Well, right now the front runner is a .50. I figured 1 lb of 4f would last quite a while, that's why right now I'm going with 1lb 4f and 4lb of the other. Math says I can get just over 2300 shots with the 4f.

rmagill · « **Reply #3 on:** April 17, 2011, 04:54:40 PM »

Not that anyone should ever mix them, but my experience of mixing Pyrodex and Goex has always been that it was a waste of Goex. Mixing powders can give you an unknown and that's not always a good idea.
Bob

GGaskill · « **Reply #4 on:** April 17, 2011, 06:18:38 PM »

I have mixed black powder and Pyrodex in cannons and it is my experience that the Pyrodex doesn't contribute anything to the propulsion of the projectile. It burns; it smokes; but that's all you will get out of it. I would reserve it strictly for muzzle loading rifles and muskets and use straight black powder in artillery.

rmagill · « **Reply #5 on:** April 17, 2011, 07:12:35 PM »

I have to agree, I haven't managed to come up with anything that worked better and more dependable than straight black. Had some 777 that was a little better than Pryodex in a rifle but still not the real thing.

keith44 · « **Reply #6 on:** April 17, 2011, 07:27:04 PM »

On mixing powders, bad idea. Pyrodex (at least in ML rifles and shotguns) generates more pressure, than black. Black generates more fouling, and does not convert from solid to gas as well as Pyro. Mixing the two will likely cause pressure spikes and velocity (and therefore accuracy) issues. As for flintlocks, my .32 prefers to be primed with 3F over 4F. Seems you want a traveling flame to move through the "flash hole" to light the main charge. With 4F I had more "flash in the pan" failure to fire misfires, than with 3F. (on the order of 30 to 1 favoring the 3F)

Rayfan87 · « **Reply #7 on:** April 19, 2011, 03:39:58 PM »

I checked the website of the maker of the rifle I'm looking at and it looks like 3F is acceptable for the main charge and other places have spoken well of 3F in the pan. So it looks like the order may end up as 5lbs of 3F. Or I may get 1 can of 4F just to try it and I may find another use for it.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #8 on:** April 19, 2011, 03:56:53 PM »

With 5 lbs of powder you'll just HAVE to get something bigger to shoot too - no point in letting it just sit around the house for years.

Rayfan87 · « **Reply #9 on:** April 19, 2011, 04:07:14 PM »

Well right now I have (2) .34 cal cannons, a 1" mortar, a .56 cal cannon, and looking into a flintlock. Unless I get a bigger raise than I'm expecting this month or I stop eating and get out of this apt and into a house with some land, I can't see myself getting anything too big soon.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #10 on:** April 19, 2011, 04:15:07 PM »

By all means USE what you've got; and then dream too.

Rayfan87 · « **Reply #11 on:** April 19, 2011, 04:22:38 PM »

I did say soon, right now I'm also looking at a .50 cal cannon, and at some point a cannon in golfball size.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #12 on:** April 20, 2011, 05:36:48 AM »

Quote from: rmagill on April 17, 2011, 04:54:40 PM

Not that anyone should ever mix them, but my experience of mixing Pyrodex and Goex has always been that it was a waste of Goex. Mixing powders can give you an unknown and that's not always a good idea.
Bob

Quote from: GGaskill on April 17, 2011, 06:18:38 PM

I have mixed black powder and Pyrodex in cannons and it is my experience that the Pyrodex doesn't contribute anything to the propulsion of the projectile. It burns; it smokes; but that's all you will get out of it. I would reserve it strictly for muzzle loading rifles and muskets and use straight black powder in artillery.

Why were you guys mixing the propellants, was it just for the sake of experimentation?

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #13 on:** April 20, 2011, 08:07:51 AM »

I will admit to mixing in the pseudo-blackpowders with a little real black powder. For ONE reason. To burn it up. The real stuff would get the pressure up enough so it would all burn.

rmagill · « **Reply #14 on:** April 20, 2011, 10:32:25 AM »

I'll have to go with just plain old dumb curiousity mainly because I was disappointed with the synthetics performance. It's better than nothing, but if you have the choice real black powder is the way to go.

Double D · « **Reply #15 on:** April 20, 2011, 10:48:18 AM »

Okay how can say this politely...Mixing powders is a big no-no.

Mixing powders without some very serious study and an understanding of the chemical process of how the powders can react to each other can very quickly get out of control. All the powders labs have researched this and none have found a safe reliable way to do it.

There is no need or any reason to do this. Mixing powders is stupid. Oops, I said I was going to be polite didn't I.

RocklockI · « **Reply #16 on:** April 20, 2011, 12:21:58 PM »

Yes , no mixing of powders !

Maybe you could make a pyro signal device with the powder and long fuse ......

Think Fire and Smoke POOF !

Just trying to help

Gary

GGaskill · « **Reply #17 on:** April 20, 2011, 01:10:50 PM »

Don't recall why; it was a long time ago and my memory has been getting worse the whole time. Probably had to do with availability of black powder. The mortar has two inch thick walls and I wasn't too concerned about overloading it.

flagman1776 · « **Reply #18 on:** July 04, 2011, 06:03:44 AM »

Use up the pyrodex & then switch.

keith44 · « **Reply #19 on:** July 04, 2011, 06:17:22 AM »

Quote from: flagman1776 on July 04, 2011, 06:03:44 AM

50 cal (I own one) fffg (3f) is a better granulation. A lot of folks use 2f (ffg) for main charges 50-58 cal behind round balls.
3f is recommended for 36-45 squirrel rifle calibers.

Does this mean there is not a powder recommended for my .32 cal??

subdjoe · « **Reply #20 on:** July 04, 2011, 06:36:28 AM »

FFFg is fine for your .32. I've found that it works well for priming in flintlocks too, although FFFFg is better.

Pyrodex used to have a rep for not working well with a flintlock ignition. I've known many who use a duplex load. 5 to 7 grains of black powder as an initiator, if you will, then the main charge of Pyrodex, reduced by that same 5 to 7 grains.

Personally, I've never seen the attraction of the substitutes other than that they are more readily available at local gun stores. It is not any easier to clean. It is just as corrosive, so it just doesn't seem worth it to me.

GGaskill · « **Reply #21 on:** July 04, 2011, 06:54:42 AM »

As I recall, the main reason for the development of Pyrodex was to lower the shipping rating from low explosive to flammable solid so it could travel in general commerce without restrictions (this was before Honest Bill and UPS's imposition of "hazardous materials" surcharges.)

So it's no surprise that Pyrodex is harder starting and less reactive in low pressure applications.

keith44 · « **Reply #22 on:** July 04, 2011, 08:16:54 AM »

Quote from: subdjoe on July 04, 2011, 06:36:28 AM

FFFg is fine for your .32. I've found that it works well for priming in flintlocks too, although FFFFg is better.

In my .32 3F is a better primer than 4F. For some reason (finiky gun) mine has a tendency to just flash the pan with 4F. Could be the humidity levels when I was load testing, and sighting in, but 4F was a big disappointment.

Quote from: subdjoe on July 04, 2011, 06:36:28 AM

Pyrodex used to have a rep for not working well with a flintlock ignition. I've known many who use a duplex load. 5 to 7 grains of black powder as an initiator, if you will, then the main charge of Pyrodex...

There is one flinter that either was or still is on the market with a redesigned breech that was supposed to provide better ignition with those pellet thingies that pyro markets. Never had any interest in the pellets, I must admit to trying the loose pyro powder though. Switched back about half way through that can. I don't use duplex loads in a muzzleloader, or cannon, due to unpredictable pressure characteristics. According to the Lyman blackpowder loading manual, pyrodex has a higher operating pressure. Real black has better "lift" characteristics in small cannons due to 60% of the charge remaining solid through out the burn. Combine the two and you can easily have pressures that are higher than need be. Probably not dangerous, but it'll do nothing for accuracy.

Quote from: subdjoe on July 04, 2011, 06:36:28 AM

Personally, I've never seen the attraction of the substitutes other than that they are more readily available at local gun stores. It is not any easier to clean. It is just as corrosive, so it just doesn't seem worth it to me.

I agree 100%!!!

Rayfan87 · « **Reply #23 on:** August 08, 2011, 05:34:22 AM »

Ok, bringing this thread back up for a minute, I got a can of Goex FFFg. Now all I have used to this point is 2f. What kind of load changes should be made? I know that I should probably use a smaller amount, but what's a good starting point to drop it to?

Double D · « **Reply #24 on:** August 08, 2011, 05:40:25 AM »

Here is the goes load chart. Find your caliber and be guided accordingly.

http://www.goexpowder.com/images/LoadCharts/Cartridge-Pistol-Revolvers.pdf

flagman1776 · « **Reply #25 on:** August 08, 2011, 05:59:03 AM »

self delete