Author Topic: Easter question about Judas (Read 2959 times)

guzzijohn · « **on:** April 18, 2011, 04:34:52 AM »

Did Judas have any choice or was he predetermined by God to betray Jesus. If predetermined did God "save" him or did he go to hell?
GuzziJohn

Blackhawker · « **Reply #1 on:** April 18, 2011, 06:19:21 AM »

For one to make an attempt to answer this question would be to say that he or she knows the ways of God and/or is, perhaps, on the level of God, would it not? Would it not be "blasphemous" to actually state that one knows the ways of God and otherwise "knows" the answer to this question?

Lost Farmboy · « **Reply #2 on:** April 18, 2011, 10:52:05 AM »

Judas had a choice. If he went to heaven or hell, I can not determine. I am not qualified to judge and do not have enough information to judge.

Shu · « **Reply #3 on:** April 18, 2011, 11:56:18 AM »

The simple answer is yes he was predetermined and had a choice.

We each are predetermined to be put into situations were we need to make a choice. You can make the right one or the wrong one.

As far as did Judas go to heaven, if he truly repented of his sin then absolutely he would go to heaven.

In the book of Romans or Hebrews and I am paraphrasing a bit. "I created Israel to show my love and Egypt to show my wrath". This would show us predestiny, however we have the choice to believe or not, that shows we have free will.

Swampman · « **Reply #4 on:** April 18, 2011, 11:58:18 AM »

Nobody has a choice. He didn't go to heaven.

John 6:70 "Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?"

powderman · « **Reply #5 on:** April 18, 2011, 12:30:45 PM »

In the 26 th ch of Mathew, verse 24, Jesus said, The Son of man goeth as it is written of him, but woe to unto that man who betrays him, it would be good for that man not to have been born.
Jesus knows our heart better than we do. Did judas have a choice?? Yes he did. If we look at Jesus statement it would appear that if Jesus knew judas would betray him that he would also know that he would NOT repent. We know where unrepentent sinners go. POWDERMAN.

Swampman · « **Reply #6 on:** April 18, 2011, 12:49:35 PM »

So Judas could have done something contrary to what Jesus a.k.a. God knew he would do?

squirrellluck · « **Reply #7 on:** April 18, 2011, 03:25:02 PM »

Predestination has another meaning if I remember correctly. Foreknowledge. God knows what was, what is and what will be. So, if he knows what will be, he already knows what choices we will make. This does not mean we don't have free will. Some get confused about the difference. So, yes he had a choice and yes Jesus knew what his choice would be. Did he go to hell? I believe he did.

Swampman · « **Reply #8 on:** April 18, 2011, 03:39:55 PM »

If there is such a thing as free will then we are god.

ironglow · « **Reply #9 on:** April 18, 2011, 03:47:42 PM »

Powderman; DITTO

Squirrelluck; DITTO

The Bible, both old and new testaments are full of examples where God provides a choice.. Sure; in his omniscience he knows what choice we will make, but He still allows us to make that choice.
Same situation when He issued the 10 commandments, knowing we mortals could not keep them perfectly. It was His way of proving to us that we needed the grace bought and paid for by Jesus' blood.
Judas was a unique case, in that he was already recognized by Jesus as a betrayer and a devil.

Let's look at.... John 13:18-30

Jesus, being God, knows Judas will betray him...(vs 18 & 21). Then He says the very fact that He had foreknowledge of the fact..proves His Divinity...(vs 19). Jesus said the one whom he gives the sop of bread is the deceiver...He gave it to Judas (vs 26)..
We know for sure Judas was not saved up to that point, because a saved person has the indwelling Holy Spirit, and when Judas consumed the bread, Satan entered into him (vs 27)..the Holy Spirit would have blocked the entrance to Judas, since He will not share space with Satan .
Jesus then said "what you do, do quickly" and Judas immediately left..evidently still harboring Satan.
Not hard to figure out...

Swampman · « **Reply #10 on:** April 18, 2011, 04:28:36 PM »

Ephesians 1:11 "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:"

ironglow · « **Reply #11 on:** April 18, 2011, 04:31:56 PM »

Swampy;
The predestination/freewill question has been debated for centuries. We see it differently..no need to start another thread for at a minimum, 1625 individual posts......and still not sway one person.. Be happy where you're at and go on.. !

Swampman · « **Reply #12 on:** April 18, 2011, 04:33:51 PM »

Not worried, by beliefs are Bible based not "church doctrine" based.

ironglow · « **Reply #13 on:** April 18, 2011, 04:51:20 PM »

Quote from: Swampman on April 18, 2011, 04:33:51 PM

Not worried, by beliefs are Bible based not "church doctrine" based.

Swampy;
OK; be happy with what you believe...

Shu · « **Reply #14 on:** April 18, 2011, 05:44:56 PM »

Let each seek his own salvation with great fear and trembling.

BBF · « **Reply #15 on:** April 21, 2011, 08:20:50 AM »

Quote this quote that verse(s) !!

Let's simplify it:

If HE hadn't done it, somebody else whould have had to do it, Period !

Lost Farmboy · « **Reply #16 on:** April 21, 2011, 08:39:30 PM »

Next to salvation the greatest gift God gives us is freewill. We always have a choice. God knows what we will choose before it happens. Still He gives us the choice. That is not predestined. Some times He reveals the choice we make before it happens, that is prophecy.

Judas had a choice, God never predestines people to go to hell. Yes, the evidence form the 4 gospels points to Judas going to hell. The dead sea scrolls gospel of Judas tells a different story. Is it or part of it true, I don't know. When it comes to life and death, heaven and hell I always leave those judgments to God. That is why I said in a previous post I am not qualified to judge and do not have enough information to judge.

BBF · « **Reply #17 on:** April 24, 2011, 05:33:04 AM »

The dude hung himself so he had regrets. That has to count for something.

Swampman · « **Reply #18 on:** April 24, 2011, 03:09:36 PM »

Freewill isn't Biblical but the church has been teaching it forever so folks believe it. Judas was predestined to do what he did. Nobody else could have.

BBF · « **Reply #19 on:** April 25, 2011, 08:15:00 AM »

Swampy:
Kind of what I'm thinking. That free will thing is overrated IMO.

powderman · « **Reply #20 on:** April 25, 2011, 08:29:31 AM »

I'm not going to get into this again, well maybe just a bit, but if God predestined us to go to hell why should we pray, go to church, lead a decent moral life?? Etc?? POWDERMAN.

Swampman · « **Reply #21 on:** April 25, 2011, 08:43:41 AM »

Because many are called but few are chosen.

Matthew 22:14

BBF · « **Reply #22 on:** April 25, 2011, 09:35:03 AM »

and those that aren't selected won't bother to try.

Swampman · « **Reply #23 on:** April 25, 2011, 09:39:10 AM »

Esau "found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears."

The Bible says "not of works, lest any man should boast."

Romans 9:16 says...

"So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it."

BBF · « **Reply #24 on:** April 25, 2011, 09:49:37 AM »

Yep, Potter and clay

Hooker · « **Reply #25 on:** April 25, 2011, 02:21:19 PM »

Quote from: Swampman on April 25, 2011, 08:43:41 AM

Because many are called but few are chosen.

Matthew 22:14

Read the full context of Jesus words not just a chosen verse.
He is speaking of a guest who was invited to a wedding but was not wearing the proper attire and thrown out of the wedding.
Just as we are all invited to heaven but if we do not wear the cloak of salvation and righteousness we to shall be cast out.
We get into so much trouble when we pluck verses from Gods word without taking in the full context of those words.
When you read the Bible always ask these questions.
What is the speaker talking about, to whom are the words be said and why?

Pat

ironglow · « **Reply #26 on:** April 25, 2011, 02:27:06 PM »

Hooker;
We could debate this for 1600 posts and go all through thepoint/counterpoint of hyper-Calvinism, but I'm trying to save bandwidth for GB.
Instead of trying to answer Swampy just remember; "text out of context.... is simply pretext !"

Swampman · « **Reply #27 on:** April 25, 2011, 02:31:28 PM »

We are not all invited to the wedding and that's his point. You are the one that is taking his words out of context. Free will doesn't exist. If it did, we'd be God.

RaySendero · « **Reply #28 on:** April 25, 2011, 02:37:17 PM »

John describes how "the book of life" will be used:

Revelation 20:15 - And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Paul's letter to the church at Phillippi gives us some insight:

Philippians 4:3 - And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.

1. The book of life existed some 1900 years ago.
2. People can still be alive when their names were already in it.

ironglow · « **Reply #29 on:** April 25, 2011, 02:43:10 PM »

Quote from: RaySendero on April 25, 2011, 02:37:17 PM

John describes how "the book of life" will be used:

Revelation 20:15 - And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Paul's letter to the church at Phillippi gives us some insight:

Philippians 4:3 - And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.

1. The book of life existed some 1900 years ago.
2. People can still be alive when their names were already in it.

....and new names are added every day...