Spitzer bullets and Marlin 336, .30-30 (approaching .308 ballistics?)

[schuetzen]

Can a .30-30 Win with a spitzer bullet be loaded into a Marlin 336 from the side (ejection port) without cycling it through the magazine tube?

If so, is it possible to approach the ballistics of a .308 Win with a .30-30 Win using .308 spitzer bullets in a Marlin 336?  (Not really interested in a .308 Marlin Express because of rarity and cost of ammo.)

[45-70.gov]

the best...probly  only way

to make a 30-30  shoot  like a 308.......is to get closer


you can shoot the spritzer....just makes your gun  a 2 shooter

just buy a 308  bolt and don't look back

[BBF]

 It is possible to load a spitzer bullet through the gate without going through the magazine tube.
However be very sure that the loaded cartridge OAL is within specs. It gets exiting if you want the eject an unfired cartridge and find out it will not clear the gate without damaging the bullet and jam up the works.
 
You will not be able to duplicate the trajectory, E or V of a standard 308 Win. from a 30-30 case
 

[Ranch13]

Loading spitzer bullets won't get you anything in a 30-30.
If you want 308 performance from a lever gun the best bet is a BLR or a Savage 99.
If you're absolutely stuck on a Marlin then have a 30-30 reamed out to 30-30 ackley improoved  AFTER you  have worked up a couple of good maximum loads using slow for the cartridge powders like RL15 . Then you have a reference point from which you can go up about 2 grs of powder.

[Dixie Dude]

If you like levers and spitzer bullets, just get a Browning.  You can find used Brownings at gun shows.  A little pricy, but less expensive than a new one.  They have .308's, 30.06's, 300wm, and I have heard of someone who made a .338wm out of a 300wm action.  Magazines are expensive, but not bad to have a spare. 

[temmi]

Can a .30-30 Win with a spitzer bullet be loaded into a Marlin 336 from the side (ejection port) without cycling it through the magazine tube?

If so, is it possible to approach the ballistics of a .308 Win with a .30-30 Win using .308 spitzer bullets in a Marlin 336?  (Not really interested in a .308 Marlin Express because of rarity and cost of ammo.)

Get the leverevolution powder and some of the new Hornady soft tip bullets...

that will get you as close as you can get.

[Longfin]

I just did some reloading using 150 gr. sptizers in the 30-30 cases. Did not work all that well for me. The 150 gr. Remington spitzers are longer than the 150 gr Speer FN bullets I typically use.  1.016" vs .913"  Therefore you have to set them deeper in the case to get the lever to close and to eject them. This would result in higher pressure as you have less internal case space.  If you load one through the side and it turns out too long you have to lever the bolt back to a point you can get a screwdriveer to lift the extractor claw off of the rim and tilt the rifle so the round fall back into the barrel. Then lever the bolt all the way and grab the cartridge with needle nose pliars and pull it out. I made up some round to use for initial sighting in as I had a bunch of 150 Remington PSPs that I was no longer using to load anything. I cut off the exposed lead tips to help shorten the OAL. I also used only the suggested starting load for these due to the pressure question. You could probably look up some loading data for the 30-30 in the Thompson Center or other single shots as those who handload for these probably use a spitzer bullet.

[Higene]

Back in the 90's I did a lot of wildcatting with 30-30 AI. After a lot of hassle fire forming cases and pushing 125, 150, 165 Nozler ballistic tips. My Rules in wild catting are:

1. Don't try to reinvent the .308   

2. Do what you can - not what you cann't.

When you push a 30-30 improved you get short case life, case head separation, blown primers and erradic performance.

I am currently working with Hornady FTX bullets and Hogden Leverevolution powder. My goal is to get loads which make my 30-30 a realistic 300 yd Blacktail cartridge.

I will post my results,

Higene

[Keith L]

B
I will post my results,

Higene

Lets stay with published loads.  Don't post anything that you can't find factory data for. 

[Higene]

Ballistics Calculation

Input Variables
Firearm type   Rifle   Sight Height   1.5
Bullet Weight (grains)   160   Ballistic Coefficient   .330
Muzzle Velocity (fps)   2200   Temperature   59
Barometric Pressure (hg)   29.53   Relative Humidity   78%
Zero Range (yards)   200   Wind Speed (mph)   0

Ballistics Table in Yards
30-30 win    160 gr., .330 B.C.   www.hornady.com

Range (yards)   Muzzle   50   100   200   300   400   500
Velocity (fps)   2200   2080   1963   1743   1542   1365   1217
Energy (ft.-lb.)   1719   1536   1369   1079   844   662   526
Trajectory (200 yd. zero)   -1.5   2.1   3.8   0.0   -15.3   -45.3   -94.1
Come Up in MOA   -1.5   -4.1   -3.6   0.0   4.9   10.8   18.0



The following table is provided as a "cheat sheet" that you can tape to your gun.
Ballistics Table in Yards
30-30 win    160 gr., .330 B.C.   www.hornady.com

Range (yards)   Muzzle   50   100   200   300   400   500
Trajectory (200 yd. zero)   -1.5   2.1   3.8   0.0   -15.3   -45.3   -94.1
Come Up in MOA   -1.5   -4.1   -3.6   0.0   4.9   10.8   18.0

________________________________________
Ballistics Calculator v1.0
Hornady Mfg, Inc., by ARIS, Inc.

[w30wcf]

Can a .30-30 Win with a spitzer bullet be loaded into a Marlin 336 from the side (ejection port) without cycling it through the magazine tube?

If so, is it possible to approach the ballistics of a .308 Win with a .30-30 Win using .308 spitzer bullets in a Marlin 336?  (Not really interested in a .308 Marlin Express because of rarity and cost of ammo.)

Schuetzen,
Yes it is definitely possible to do that.  No, one can't = .308 ballistics with a 30-30 but here is what can be done.......
168 gr Hornady BTHP / 30-30 Marlin Cowboy / Steel Rams at 500 meters (547 yards) 10 in a row!!

The 30-30 propelled 168 gr bullets hit with enough force at 500 meters to send the steel rams earthward!
Pic from the 2010 Lever Action Jubilee - Brian W. went 10x10 
   

Rams are the furthest out


w30wcf 
 

[gordie]

what are the spec.'s on that scope that guys using?

[Higene]

I have loaded up some 30-30 and 30-30 AI bullets and am heading to the range on Sunday.

I will be wringing out the 160 gr. 30-30 FTX with 35.5 gr Leverevolution powder
(the load printed on the powder bottle).

I have shown the 30-30 170 for comparison.

When I fire formed the cases for the 30-30 AI I lost 10 thousands of an inch. They started at 2.029 and came out  2.019. For the 30-30 trimmed to 2.029 and crimped in the cantelure COL is 2.530 - well below the Hornady published COL of 2.550. I remain mystified why it is necessary to cut the cases to 2.029. There may be .010 in the cantelure but not .020.

I plan to shoot the 30-30s in a 23" Contender.

I will post results.

Yours in safety,

Higene

[Higene]

A hectic day at the range is better than a good day at work?

Intent of this range session was to test Hornady 160 ftx 30-30s at 200 and 300 yds in a TC with a 23" tube and a 336 with a 20" tube.

Conditions intermittent showers ( in Yacolt, Wa. that means it pours for 15 mins and then it's sunny for 15 mins). OK but far from great.

The 336 had a mechanical problem at 50 yd sight in and was out of the test. I only brought 50 rounds and attempting to sight 2 guns in used more than I had planned. Forgot my ballistic tables and had to rely on memory and dead reckoning.

Finally got to the 200 with only the TC contender running.
1. I dropped 5, 3 of the five were 10" low and 2" right.
2. I over corrected and got one 4" high and 2" right.
3. corrected again and got 2 4" right.
4.  Next I ran 10. It came up with a decent group of 8, centered 4" low and 2 right. Of the other two, one pulled low right and I had a called pull which missed the paper.

[Higene]

Continued from above -

I was running out of time and bullets but I wanted to run a few at 300 yards. This was with a 23" Contender and Hornady FTX bullets and Leverevolution powder.

1. With the range officer helping on the spotting scope, I dropped two - they were low and right.
2. Using Kentucky windage I dropped 5. Four fell in a decent group - low again.

In summary is the 30-30 FTX a 300 yard deer cartridge? Not for me today. 200 oh ya but not quite 300.

Overall the hardware, gun and bullets, performed better than I did. Next time I plan to bring more bullets, spend more time at 100 and 200 and not advance until I am dialed at the lower range. I have a dream.

Higene

[mannyrock]

    Buy a Marlin 336 in .308 Marlin Express.  If the factory ammo is too expensive, then reload.

    Why risk high pressure, danger, gun damage, lead, powder, and time on trying to make a .30-.30 into a .308?  What's the point?

[JPShelton]

Loading spitzer bullets won't get you anything in a 30-30.
If you want 308 performance from a lever gun the best bet is a BLR or a Savage 99.
If you're absolutely stuck on a Marlin then have a 30-30 reamed out to 30-30 ackley improoved  AFTER you  have worked up a couple of good maximum loads using slow for the cartridge powders like RL15 . Then you have a reference point from which you can go up about 2 grs of powder.

While I would agree that you can't turn a .30-30 into a .308 Winchester, loading spitzer bullets in the .30-30 most definitely DOES extend the useful game-taking range of the cartridge, and it isn't insignificant.  Hodgedon Leverevolution powder coupled with Hornady's 160 grain FTX gummy tipped spitzers take the .30-30 from a 200 yard and under cartridge to a 300 yard and under cartridge for deer and similar game.  In simple terms, a 160 FTX over a max charge of Leverevolution will deliver as much thump at 300 yards as a traditional round or flat nosed 170 grain loading will deliver at 200.  The trajectory, assuming a zero set to maximize point-blank range, is flat enough to allow reliable hits on a deer-sized kill zone at 300.  Wind drift can be an issue, but it is lessened somewhat through practice and getting a feeel for how wind affects the flight of the bullet and to what degre.

T-C

[T.R.]

This is my 225 yard deer & antelope cartridge:  30-30 case loaded with Sierra 125 grain bullet.  Trajectory, accuracy, and most of all-bullet expansion & penetration is TOPS!!

Do not assume that all 150 grain .308 bullets will open up on game at 30-30 velocity.  Vast majority of 150 grain pointed bullets are designed by factory engineers for toppling animals with 300 Savage, .308, and 30-06 rifles.  Take note that 30-30 was NOT included in this list.  Plan to be disappointed with lack of mushroom performance at 30-30 velocity.

In contrast, this 125 grain bullet was designed for hunting varmints with 30-06 or 308 rifles.  But at 30-30 velocity, you'll get big game performance: deep penetration combined with predictable rapid expansion.  This Sierra bullet will transform your 30-30 forest carbine into a legitimate 225 yard deer & antelope killer!!

TR

[454Puma]

T.R.
 Agreed My pointy bullet for my 336 is the Speer 130 HP  only run then to 2145 fps ! But they are very accurate!  The only thing I've taken with them is a yote at 200 yards and it worked perfectly!