Author Topic: Shots / grape shots (Read 1635 times)

bluez · « **on:** April 20, 2011, 03:39:43 PM »

How do i load a smaller 2" cannon with shots? Should i try to replicate civil war grape shots? Or should i just place the shots after the powder with some wadding?

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #1 on:** April 20, 2011, 03:57:50 PM »

Bluez -

WELCOME tothe board.

Several ways of doing it. I would start with the principle of having a piece of wood or other material on top of the powder to push the shot. From there you have several choices of how to contain the shot.

I'll let others pick up there.

GGaskill · « **Reply #2 on:** April 20, 2011, 04:33:00 PM »

Are you trying to shoot a bunch of smaller-than-bore-size shot at once or multiple bore-size shot at once?

seacoastartillery · « **Reply #3 on:** April 20, 2011, 05:17:13 PM »

Except in the larger naval guns, by the time of the Civil War, grapeshot had mostly become obsolete. Canister with it's smaller, but more numerous, shot had become the standard anti-personnel munition. Below are found two photos that member Terry C. took of the grapeshot and canister rounds he developed and produced with precision for his 1" bore Napoleon. I agree with him that heavy duty aluminum foil is vastly superior to pieces of soda cans to be used in the manufacture of canister and grapeshot rounds. 45 cal., 50 cal.,or 58 cal. lead round balls would be great sizes to use for making 2" bore dia. canister rounds.

Excellent question, Bluez. Try to post a photo of the resulting destruction of the target and the cannon which will shoot these loads.

Mike and Tracy

Terry C.'s Canister and Grapeshot munitions.

Relative sizes of shot for Terry's 1" Napoleon.

tkthorn · « **Reply #4 on:** April 20, 2011, 06:24:01 PM »

Great idea using the foil this way to make Canister shot! These look just like my powder bags minus the wood plug. I've been trying to come up with a easy way to make Canister and this is perfect, GREAT JOB !!! I've included a picture showing the "Grape Shot" I put together alongside my 2" lead Cannon Balls. I use (9) .875" diameter lead balls for my "Grape Shot" which I cast with a mold that I made.

Terry T.
tkthorn

Cannoneer · « **Reply #5 on:** April 20, 2011, 07:07:32 PM »

That's a good looking naval gun, Terry.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #6 on:** April 21, 2011, 01:45:50 AM »

That first pix is a CALENDAR shot!

bluez · « **Reply #7 on:** April 21, 2011, 03:42:08 AM »

Quote from: GGaskill on April 20, 2011, 04:33:00 PM

Are you trying to shoot a bunch of smaller-than-bore-size shot at once or multiple bore-size shot at once?

I am trying to shoot smaller then bore size shots. I have a lot of .44 cal balls and a lee mold for that. The exact bore size of the cannon is 44mm (golf ball). I think the canisters that Terry C has made, is what i am looking for.

dominick · « **Reply #8 on:** April 21, 2011, 07:30:12 AM »

Quote from: Cannoneer on April 20, 2011, 07:07:32 PM

That's a good looking naval gun, Terry.

I second that!

seacoastartillery · « **Reply #9 on:** April 21, 2011, 08:34:02 AM »

I agree with everyone else, Terry. That's a fine looking naval cannon and I really like the polish you have on the tube. Can you tell us how you made it? Drilled or bored from a solid round or a machined thickwall mechanical tube? A welded breech plug or threaded? That sort of information is very interesting to the makers on this board and to lots of the people who are thinking about making one too.

A beautiful carriage too!

Tracy & Mike

tkthorn · « **Reply #10 on:** April 21, 2011, 02:08:02 PM »

The Tube was turned from a solid bar of 4140 steel 32" long, 5" Breech diameter and a little over 4" at the muzzle swell, no breech plug or any welds. The Trunions are 1 1/2" diameter and turned down on one end and threaded 1"-12, locktited and screwed in very tight. The bore was drilled and then reamed to 2" diameter. I polished the tube and then put 8 coats of Krylon semi-gloss black paint on it. The Trunion caps were machined from solid 1018 steel, not bent. My carriage is White Oak with a Golden Oak stain and also 8 coats of satin polyurethane. The Trucks (wheels) are from an antique cart from the shop I work at.

Terry T.
tkthorn

dan610324 · « **Reply #11 on:** April 21, 2011, 04:38:47 PM »

whats the diameter just in front of the rimbase ?? 4 or 4,5 inch ??
whats the diameter at the smallest place just behind the muzzle svell ??

tkthorn · « **Reply #12 on:** April 22, 2011, 12:58:26 PM »

Call me dumb but I don't know what you mean by "Rim Base" ?

dan610324 · « **Reply #13 on:** April 22, 2011, 01:09:38 PM »

the largest diameter at the breech

Zulu · « **Reply #14 on:** April 22, 2011, 01:20:15 PM »

Quote from: dan610324 on April 22, 2011, 01:09:38 PM

the largest diameter at the breech

Dan,
Rim bases are the widest part of the trunnion where it meets the barrel.
Zulu

dan610324 · « **Reply #15 on:** April 22, 2011, 03:49:35 PM »

well , what to call that little thing with the largest diameter on the barrel ??
some kind of rim it got to be , or ??

Zulu · « **Reply #16 on:** April 22, 2011, 05:08:41 PM »

Quote from: dan610324 on April 22, 2011, 03:49:35 PM

well , what to call that little thing with the largest diameter on the barrel ??
some kind of rim it got to be , or ??

I've always called it the breech ring.
Zulu

dan610324 · « **Reply #17 on:** April 23, 2011, 12:02:14 AM »

thanks

oltom · « **Reply #18 on:** April 23, 2011, 01:43:40 AM »

nice project!
always use a sabot end so the blast of powder wont just 'blow by' the grape shot....you loose all of the power....it's a very short range deal anyways~kinda like shooting steel chain~
one safety thought....make you a 'safe' rammer'...no sharp edges, or even better, a s-hook~ i drilled a hole in my rammer, and use a off-set loading technique....i am never in front of my 2-1/4" bore after the powder is in the tube!
momma told me to be careful with my cannon..........

dan610324 · « **Reply #19 on:** April 23, 2011, 02:38:47 AM »

does it have a reduced powder chamber ?? howitzer
or is it a full bore cannon ??

how thick are the walls surrounding the powder charge ?? 1 1/4 or ??

tkthorn · « **Reply #20 on:** April 23, 2011, 09:34:46 AM »

The largest diameter behind the breech is 5", at the trunnions it is 4 5/8", muzzle swell is 4 1/2" and smallest diameter behind muzzle swell is 3 3/4". there is 1 3/8" wall thickness at breech where the powder bag sits and no powder chamber. This tube is made of a solid bar of 4140 steel (very strong) and no welds or any breech plug, all one piece solid steel. **NOTE** Sorry if you viewed this earlier I just made changes, I put my tape measure away and got out my dial calipers and my earlier dimensions were off, this is more accurate.

Terry T.
tkthorn

dan610324 · « **Reply #21 on:** April 24, 2011, 01:15:27 AM »

I thought from the pictures that it was thin , but I dont know if its dangerous or not as you used some tough steel .
there is a rule of thumb that say that the thickness of barrel wall should be the same as the bore diameter or more .
so in this case it should have been minimum 2" walls , or maximum a 1,66" bore .

maybe you will use reduced loads and fire it in a safe way , but remember that we doesnt live that long .
so when you are gone there will be someone else firing that cannon , could be your son or grandson maybe .
will they also understand that they should use reduced loads ??
this is NOT a massive critisism either of you or your build , just an small reminder that it might not be safe to fire .
its quite a different between 1 3/8" and 2" wall thickness .

every now and then there is news about "cannons" that have exploded and killed or injuried some people , hope that we not need to read about you there .
ok many of them have been pipe bombs and not cannons , but sometimes it have been cannons that burst also .
so please be careful and think twice .

Double D · « **Reply #22 on:** April 24, 2011, 03:23:46 AM »

Although we strongly advocate the one caliber wall thickness rule as a good safety margin, this gun is one of those exceptions. 4140 is sometimes called Gunbarrel or ordnance steel. It is the general type of steel used in Gun making.

There is a general rule of thumb in gunsmithing about the thickness of chamber walls in modern rifles using modern ordnance type steels and this cannon as described would be within the realm of that rule of thumb.. I am not going to say what the figure is, as it would be to easy for the complete parameters to be ignored and the figure used as a rationalization for not building to the one caliber rule.

This cannon, if built to the dimensions described, with the materials described and was made using proper construction techniques, should be safe to fire.

tkthorn · « **Reply #23 on:** April 24, 2011, 05:17:49 AM »

In agreement with Double D, 4140 is a gun barrel steel unlike thick wall tubing or mild 1018 steel 4140 offers extremely high tensile strength and can withstand tremendous pressures. As I mentioned this tube was lathe turned from a solid bar and has no breech plug threaded or welded. 4140 steel CAN be welded but proper annealing of the steel must be followed. I chose to turn the tube completely solid with no screw in or welded breech plug to avoid any potential weak spots. I proof all my Tubes with double the safe loads from a safe distance to assure it will handle a normal load safely.

Terry T.
tkthorn

bluez · « **Reply #24 on:** April 24, 2011, 12:22:57 PM »

Quote from: seacoastartillery on April 20, 2011, 05:17:13 PM

Below are found two photos that member Terry C. took of the grapeshot and canister rounds he developed and produced with precision for his 1" bore Napoleon.

Another question, do you know how the canisters worked ? Did he try them the out?

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #25 on:** April 24, 2011, 01:49:56 PM »

bluez -

You ask GOOD questions. Keep 'em comming!

bluez · « **Reply #26 on:** April 24, 2011, 02:09:10 PM »

Quote from: Cat Whisperer on April 24, 2011, 01:49:56 PM

bluez -

You ask GOOD questions. Keep 'em comming!

Thanks

I found this on youtube, however this is a full size cannon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMILWzE9f0k