Author Topic: First Melt (Read 858 times)

Propdoc03 · « **on:** December 28, 2003, 03:43:28 AM »

Hi All. I am just a new to this forum as I am to casting, only I have been reading up on my Lyman 3rd edition Casting book. I must be honest and say that some of the book is about as clear as mud to me. I have hade a couple of five gallon bucket fulls of wheel weights for quite some time and finally melted some down as my initial cleaning. I used a stainless steel soup pot with my Coleman propane single burner. I had a little cast iron ashtray that is shaped like a frying pan and ended up with 2lb ingots. I am planning on using some muffin tins and some minuature loaf tins that I picked up from Wal-Mart. I am a little concerned about using the loaf tins as they have a sort of non stick coating on them. Anyway, my questions are, is it possible to overheat the wheel weights\lead to where it will actually crystilize? I thought I read that is is but can not find it now. I dont have a thermometer quite yet but will be getting one with my furnace, I am hoping to be able to swing for the Lyman Mag20 but may end up having to go with the mini mag? Also, I am using Beez Wax to flux but am not quite clear on the fluxing. Does the beez wax need to cover the intire pot with a layer before stiring? If so I am in trouble because it ignites before I can do so. Also, it mentiones about not skimming before fluxing as this is the tin. I have read on other forums that the tin comming back out of an alloy is sort of missleading? What I skimmed off was so little and seemed extra soft so I am not sure about this actually being tin? My hopes in the end are to be able to cast for a few handguns along with some softer lead for my Pedersoli 45/70 with black powder.

Thanks PD

Propdoc03 · « **Reply #1 on:** December 28, 2003, 05:52:57 AM »

Okay I just found this article on line and read it. It seemed to be a very good article but from what I gathared it sounds like fluxing might be better suited for bopttom pouring? At this point I am just trying to clean up my wheel weights ( get rid of the metal clips) and ge them ionto ingots. Is fluxing really needed for this at this point? If interested here is a link to the artice http://www.sixguns.com/crew/simplefluxing.htm

Thanks PD

Graybeard · « **Reply #2 on:** December 28, 2003, 06:36:08 AM »

Yes you do want to flux at this point and stir well. It helps to keep your tin and antimony in the mix rather than separating them out. When doing the initial cleaning up melt on wheel weights unless you've thoroughly washed AND DRIED them you'll get a lot of miscellaneous trash plus the clips. If you've washed them well and DRIED THEM THOROUGHLY then the clips and a bit of oxidation should be about all you take out. The rest is tin and antimony you want in the mix.

GB

Propdoc03 · « **Reply #3 on:** December 28, 2003, 07:24:17 AM »

Thanks GB
I am looking at my electric furnace options and had my heart set on the Lyman mag20 but things are a little tight right now. I ran accross the Lee Production pot which is about 1/4th the cost and it looks like it may suite my needs, but I do not see wheather it is a bottom pour or not? I do not foresee me doing any high volume casting, of couse thats what I say now. For the average caster might I be better off holding out for the Mag 20, or might the Lee production be suitable?

PD

Johm D M · « **Reply #4 on:** December 29, 2003, 05:50:13 AM »

Get the Lee 20 lb pot and never put anything but clean alloy in it and you should be ok. If you want to save for a better pot look at RCBS's warrenty and go for the green. Gianni.

The Shrink · « **Reply #5 on:** December 29, 2003, 10:34:17 AM »

PropDoc

Why the hurry to get a bottom pour pot? From what I've read I'm happy staying with my Coleman stove and pot, pouring with a ladel. I can pour my six cavity 44-40 MAV Dutchman mold with one Lyman ladel without refilling it. That's all the pour I need at one time. I make my rifle bullets one at a time, and it's plenty big for that.

I am not an expert by any means, but it makes sense to me that once in the mix, tin does not float to the top. In fact, once my lead is clean, I get almost no junk to the top of my steel pot, and quite a bit to the top of my cast iron pot. I've concluded, after emptying the iron pot and finding rust on the bottom, that what I'm scraping off the top is iron oxide.

If you are not casting much I don't see the need to go to the bottom pour unless you need to do your casting indoors and want the cleanliness (?) that may come with casting that way. I do it out on the porch and don't worry much.

Wayne

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #6 on:** December 29, 2003, 11:07:01 AM »

PropDoc -

The word flux means: to clean. The name of the game is to do as much removing of the grit and crud as possible when first melting the source materials as wheel weights and such. Do so in a different containter than from which you will pour the bullets and life will be easier.

From what I've heard metalurgests say, the metals do not separate; but they will oxidize. You will remove good quantities of the oxides when first melting your alloys. ONE of the things that adding the flux will do is to keep the oxygen away from the melt - keeping the oxidation to a minimum.

Since lead is so dense, most impurities (and the steel wheel weight clips) will float right off. So high heat and much sturring helps. I use an old table spoon, an iced tea spoon and a couple of iron ladles of varying descriptions to skim the surface. Then I ladle into the muffin tins and ingot moulds. It's a good idea to mark what the ingot source material was (pure lead, wheel weights, mystery metal...)
You will NOT remember two years from now.

Then when you're ready to cast bullets, put together the alloy of your choice; again fluxing and stirring to further purify the melt. Now is a good time to use the oil-dry/kitty-litter. (It keeps the melt hotter and keeps the air from getting to the melt - use it if you have a bottom pour furnace.

Getting too hot - most furnaces keep the temperature below 900dF. Above that there are vapors that are genuinly serious. In any event keep the ventilation good. And wash up too.

You've gotten lots of advice here - keep notes as to what works for you. You're about to run into issues of casting and will quickly run into figuring out temperature of melt and mould affect the quality of the bullet.

Propdoc03 · « **Reply #7 on:** December 29, 2003, 03:18:01 PM »

Thanks for all the great advice. I guess I was after a bottom pour because I thought that was the best way to go. After reading other post's I guess thats up for debate? I do have a $100.00 Cabelas gift certificate so I am still trying to figure out which way to go. I did look at the RCBS unit which looks to be about the same as the Lyman Mag 20 which Cabelas does not carry. I am getting a much better idea of things now and do have about 97lbs of cleaned up lead from my wheel weights. I have been using some mini loaf pans that end up being just about 4lb ingots, my cast iron ash tray which drops just about a two lb ingot and my muffin pan which is about are also 2lb ingots. I was only able to use the muffin pan once as they ended up bonding to it and I had to use my propane tourch to get them out. I do not have a themometer as of yet and am not sure just how hot my pot got. I am a little concerned about this as I was reading on the animony mans website and he mentioned to keep the temp. under 650 degrease when cleaning the wheel weights so that the zink will not melt. Are some of the wheel weights zinc and is it possible that my lead is now contaminated with it and is this a problem? Of course I read this just after I finished up today and was taking a break.

Thanks Again,
PS

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #8 on:** December 29, 2003, 03:37:41 PM »

You should be able to sort through the wheel weights for zinc ones. They do exist, but I've never experienced one. Zinc is hard and will 'clink' where lead will give a dull thud.

Best to sort through if you think you have some in the batch - zinc is bad news for the batch.

When casting, though, you'll need to keep things hot. 700- 800 for the melt and 400 or so for the mould. But you don't NEED to have a thermometer. Watch the effects, change one thing at a time, and develop a consistant pattern (record keeping helps). If either the mould or the melt is too cool you'll get wrinkled bullets.

Propdoc03 · « **Reply #9 on:** December 29, 2003, 04:56:25 PM »

Hey Tim, thanks for the quick response! There were some different looking weights that I threw in when I was melting them down and some were painted. I just ran out to the garage and clanked some of the same looking ones on a wrench and to me they sound the same as the normal looking lead ones. I then cut some in half with my cutting dikes and they look the same as the normal looking lead ones. After cutting them and scraping the cut end they apear nice and shiny like lead. I am still concerned that some may have gotten by me in the initial melt. So what kind of bad news is zinc in the pot and is there any way to find out if it is indeed in there? I hate to scrap all of my work and lead but what is is what is. I read a post where zinc can contaminate molds and pots. Once contaminated are they scrap?

PD

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #10 on:** December 29, 2003, 05:31:19 PM »

If the ingots cast well, so should the bullets. Not much at all sticks to zinc. Lead and tin don't. It should be easy to spot - like mush.

Zinc is hard, rings when hit. It is about the same density as iron, although it melts at a much lower temperature than iron. I think you'd note that something was wrong by now.