Strange misfire with the 357 maxi

[revbc]

Went to the range today to test some RAMSHOT Enforcer powder with my 190 gr Ranch Dog cast bullets.  Had them loaded up in steps: 13/13.5/14/14.5/15 grs.  All within published limits for cast loads.

Shooting 3 rds of each starting with the lowest, the 14gr put 3 touching at 50yds.  Shot one 14.5 and then on the next round, a FTF, or so I thought.  Misfired once, pulled the hammer back and let it have a full trigger pull, FTF, nothing. (I had good ear protection on, sounded like a FTF)  Opened the breech and the brass popped out like an ejector!  Bullet is stuck just beyond the chamber in the barrel.  So I'm thinking.....you dummy, you forgot to add the powder and the primer just went off and stuck the bullet.  However on further inspection..........way to much crystallized residue in the chamber.  I don't think the powder ignited properly. I only loaded 15 bullets all by hand, so I'm almost 100% positive there was powder in them all.   Apparently the chamber sealed and held pressure of some kind until opened, popped that brass way out.  Hasn't hurt anything.......just gotta knock the bullet out.

This may need to be in the reloading section, but because it was one of my FAVORITE Handi's, thought I would get you all's opinion on this.

Bobby

[gcrank1]

I had that happen with an experimental load once too. You are right about it being pressurized. The cast bullet came out easy enough with my HD steel rod, well taped at the brass tip end and about every 6" so if it flexed it wouldn't bang the rifling. I use 8 or10 x32 brass screws for blunts on my rods too. Spray some lube in both sides before rapping.
You should end up with a very nice bore slug for future reference.

[Macphoto]

Not familiar with your powder, but had a similar episode with 2400 in a 44mag load.  Melted powder came out the muzzle and looked like cornflakes!  Crimped the rest of the reloads and all was well

[revbc]

Thanks for the reply's.  Didn't think about crimping, as I have never crimped a maxi load.  But with these cast loads it maybe some thing I need to do. 

[bikerbeans]

Bobby,

I had a similiar issue the other day with my 45 - 120.  350 gr RN Jacketed over 74 grains of IMR4350.  First pull nothing, second pull nothing.  Opened the gun up and brass came out, ejector so not sure if chamber was pressured, and the case was full of compressed powder and the bullet was stuck in the throat.  Bullet came out with only a light tap of the range rod.  The powder was compressed againist the base of the bullet so the primer had went bang.  I dug the powder out at home and it didn't appeared to be burnt just compressed very tightly.  At this session I fired 13 other loads of this powder/bullet combination w/o issue.  The rounds were not crimped, just neck tension but where loaded so that the bullet was touching the rifling.   I am thinking there was something in the bottom of the case, pinch of cleaning media maybe, that prevented the primer flash from getting to the powder.

BB

[revbc]

BB,
That sounds plausible, but I think on mine I used a lee length trim that would have went through the flash hole and I didn't run these through the vibrator.  It's really puzzling to me, I guess I may never know what actually happened.

Bobby

[yukondog]

Reloading gremlins at work.

[gcrank1]

One of our more knowledgable chemists may give us an explanation, but IIRC, powders need a certain amount of heat and pressure to burn correctly and it varies with the powder. I know I have heard about this with 2400 before, and I'm not familiar with your powder at all.
My initial reaction is that you were on the bottom of that heat/pressure curve. Maybe if you had lifted the muzzle to orient the powder back to the flash it would have worked? Still, that is not a solution, just a thought. In my tests I have found that I get the most consistent velocities in a low loading density load by doing just so. You still want enough of a proper load to not do what happened to you, that's for sure.

[gjdykeman]

I had a big issue using W296. I load for my 45LC rifle with a generous amount of 296 under a hand cast 300g GCFN. These loads are a little stout for the pistol but shoot. Not accurate in the pistol. I purchase 255g copper plated for the pistol. I decided to try them with the same load as the cast bullets. Pop, phat, plop. No go. They did not fire. A lot of yellow powder caked in the bore and all squibs. The opinion was the powder was not suited to the load and bullets. I pulled all the rounds and don't use that powder for those bullets. I have learned I could have made it work. Deep seating, heavy crimp and muzzle up before firing, not a good deal. I now use a different powder with the copper plated and all work well. I still can't hit the broad side of a barn door with that pistol. The rifle shoots MOA with what ever i put in it.

[revbc]

I'm aware of potential problems with W296 if under loaded to much.  Never heard any complaints about Ramshot powders though, the Enforcer is their magnum pistol powder.

Enforcer
Enforcer is a double based, spherical powder that produces high velocities in a wide variety of large handgun calibers. Enforcer's physical size lends itself to excellent consistency in charge weights through a progressive loader due to its ease of metering. Enforcer's high bulk density contributes to a full case capacity and more consistent loads. Enforcer also performs well in some small rifle cases such as the .22 Hornet.    
Ideal Calibers:
.357 Mag, .44 Mag, 454 Casull, 480 Ruger

[gcrank1]

Have you been using powder from this lot for a while, or is this new? It sure sounds like you should not be having issues with it, so you may want to contact the manufacturer.

[revbc]

Powder is maybe 2 months old, keep in climate control atmosphere, sealed.  Good suggestion about contacting Ramshot.  I just sent them an edited version of my initial post. 

We'll see what they say.  I'll post their response.

[mauser98us]

296/H-110 must have a hard crimp to ignite properly

[revbc]

Here's what Johan at Ramshot said:

Bobby,

There are a couple possibilities.

The fact that the lower loads all went off indicates that this might have been a once off bad primer or that at the higher load the combination is not working properly.

The CCI 400 is a powerful primer and can cause a situation where the primer’s energy is sufficient to eject the bullet prematurely.

This increases in initial combustion volume, which then causes the pressure to drop slowing/stopping the combustion process.   

I suggest that you try with standard small pistol primers.

We used standard WSP primers in our load development and all worked very well.

 

Regards

Johan Loubser

Ballistician

Ramshot.Accurate.Powders

Makes sense.

[crossfire]

Just my opinion, so take it for what it's worth. Your powder charge is too low. Scots 4100 and Ramshot Enforcer have the same relationship as H110 and W296 do; essentially identical powders. The .360 Dan Wesson, a .190" shorter case than the Maximum, uses 16.0-17.5gr of Scots 4100 with that weight bullet.
My guess is that you are getting just enough ignition to jam the bullet in the bore before the fire goes out due to lack of pressure. I always used CCI #450 primers in my Maximum loads.

[cwlongshot]

I agree with most previous posters.

I have also had this happen. I have had the yello residue in my 45 colt loadings with light bullets and 2400 powder.

I have fired a couple of bricks worth of CCI 400 primers thru my maxis. If your using ANY pistol spherical ball powder you gonna need to crimp for best results. NOT just for accuracy. Velocity, vel spread reliability of ignition and accuracy.
Remember no matter what it's morphed into. It's a pistol round, designed around med burning, hard to ignite, magnum pistol powders.  This is why magnum pistol primers or STD rifle primers are used.

Double check you powder charges, I'm a bit surprised at the range of charges. But crimping is near mandatory. The theory of "popping" the bullet out is defineately plausible. Especially with the knoledge you are not crimping your bullets. Then START crimping with these powders! Contrary Romania beliefs. It's NOT just for stopping the bullet from being pushed into the case.

CW

[revbc]

CW and Crossfire,

I do think crimping may solve the issue with the Enforcer powder; however, my loads are not lower than published data for that powder ( I am not familiar with the powders crossfire made reference to).  It was one of the top loads 14.5 grs that misfired, not the lower 13gr load.

Johan at Ramshot stated the rifle primers were probably to hot, their published data was worked up with small pistol primers.  I think his premise is that the pressure from the more powerful primer popped the bullet which increased case capacity tremendously and caused a squib.

Again I think ya'lls advice about crimping with certain powders is advisable.  I shoot mostly 1680 and jacketed bullets and do not crimp, but I can see that may change with cast bullets and other powders.

[bikerbeans]

rev,

Might try the federal small pistol Mag primers.  I have used them exclusively with the Maxi and have zero FTFs and no punctured primers.  I have not exceeded "book" loads because my Maxi is on a SB1.

BB

[crossfire]

Scots 4100 is an Accurate Arms powder. You are absolutely right. I checked the load data and those are viable powder charges for the .357 Maximum in the Ramshot guide. My bad. I guess I'm too used to the Maximum being loaded to pressures it was originally designed for. My apologies.