Damascus steel

[schoolmaster]

I see quite a few Damascus steel knives for sale by various companies. How in the world do you tell how good they are?  I think that depending on the kinds of steel there could be quite a difference in toughness and edge holding quality. What do you look for?

[Joel]

If you're buying a factory knife with a damascus blade, then stick to the well known knife companies...Buck, Bear&Sons,Case, and others.   While they often(not always) use blades from third world manufacturers, they do have better quality control.  Bear & Sons make their own damascus.  I don't own a knife in that steel, currently, but mine was a custom anyway.  Stay away from "bargain damascus".  Generally the blades are made in India, Pakistan, and ,now, China. They tend to have adventurous names and have steel quality and heat treat problems.  The one I tried from India was so soft it wouldn't take an edge.  If you find one that you know was made in Japan buy it, but I"m not sure of the European commercial knife brands quality.

[schoolmaster]

Hey Joel, I was hoping you would chime in on this thread. I have followed your advice before and it was a wise choice on my part. You commented in one of your replies about a German made stockman's knife that you used to dress a deer with. I decided that if this was a knife you were using that I would try one. It is a dandy. Now I have a yen for a damascus knife and I will check out the ones you have mentioned. Thanks.

[AtlLaw]

Stay away from "bargain damascus".

Geeeze Joel!  How do you know what blades are good and what aren't?     I've been drooling over some of those damascus blades that the supply houses advertise.  But I wouldn't call their prices a "bargain!"     I'd hate to pay a bunch for a pretty but poor blade... 

[Joel]

That's why I'm saying stick to well known companies.  The odds are much better.  Personally, if I were to buy a damascus knife, I'd go with a custom knife by a well known maker.  I see a lot of knives at Arizona Custom Knives that run in the $250-$400 dollar range, and that's not that much more than what you'd pay for some of the commercial ones.  Custom makers pretty much have to do it right if they're to survive.  Many of them(like myself..although I don't do damascus) offer a warranty; as do the better commercial factories.  When considering damascus, proper heat treatment is REALLY important.

[AtlLaw]

Okay Joel, say I go to Jantz to buy one of their blades.

http://www.knifemaking.com/category_s/64.htm

They say:
"Hand forged from 1075 and 15N20 (2% nickel) hi-carbon steel. Folded to produce 200 layers. All blades are flat ground, properly heat treated, polished then etched to bring out the contrasting layers of metal which form the Damascus pattern.  The mild steel tangs are welded to the blade making the spine easy to customize with file work. All flat tang blades are drilled with 1/4” rivet holes. All dimensions are approximate. No two patterns will be exactly alike."

They also say their blades are made in the USA.

Should I expect a good piece of steel?   

edit:  I just noticed the you and OP were talking about buying ready made knives and I was talking about buying just the blade to finish out myself...     My bad... 

[Joel]

I checked the catalog.  It lists two sources; Damascus Blades USA which is a company that offers mainly imported blades from India/Pakistan.  I went to his (Rob Charlton's) website and it's quite impressive, but nowhere does he mention under "low cost blade blanks" where they were manufactured and what any of the specs are. The blade I couldn't sharpen because it was too soft came from him.  Now, that was 14 years ago and their quality control has hopefully improved....but I personally don't trust such terms as "low cost".  I would suspect those are the blades that Jantz is offering.  The other source is River Bend Carbon Damascus(which is what the others are also) and is American made. They've some limited patterns which is usually a good thing since it implies a small shop and some decent quality control.  For a   American made blade by Shadow Forge and Alabama Damascus Steel check out Sheffield Knifemakers Supply at http://www.sheffieldsupply.com.  The lady that owns it,Ann, carries only the good stuff no matter what it is.  It's all in the heat treatment/tempering so it goes back to what I originally said about trusting the source. There has, up to now at least, always been a problem with quality control for third world producers. You can also call Jantz or Sheffield or any of them and ask about the steel.   See if they can provide a Rockwell number.

[AtlLaw]

Thanks Joel!  That is very enlightening information.  I really appreciate your insights!   

One would think that a major supplier would carry quality material.  Especially when they advertise it as made in America.  I guess they were talking about the blade being made here, albeit from steel forged elsewhere.   

One thing is for certain, I'll be much less trusting of a supplier's claims when I do buy that Damascus blade.   

[schoolmaster]

Well Joel thanks to your lead I contacted Lacy Smith from Alabama Damascus steel and he told me his blades were between 58 and 62 Rockwell. I have ordered a blade from him and I am having a knifesmith finish out the handle and make a sheath for it. I also researched Bear and Sons and ordered a stockman's damascus pocket knife from them. I feel very confident that these knives will be of high quality and saticfactory in every way. Can't wait to take delivery of them. Thanks so much for your input and steering me in the right direction for some good ole made in the U.S.A products.

[Joel]

I strongly suspect you'll enjoy both

[DeckH]

My two cents:  I'm with Joel.  You get what you pay for.  Ask me how I know!     Been making knives for 13 yrs on and off(mostly off).  Have bought  ,yrs ago, some of the damascuc blades Joel mentioned.  They were marked--India.  Don't buy them.    Another thing about damascus, wether you forge it yourself or buy it,  if you use the knife, you better keep it CLEAN.  Some of the carbon steels will rust if you breathe on it.      If you make your own(stock removal method) or if you buy it I would recommend DAMASTEEL.  This steel is not cheap but it is made in Sweden buy combining two types of stainless steel.   Cost varies depending on the pattern.    Last time I checked years ago it ran $15-$20/ inch.   Makes into beautiful knives as well as a using tool.  Fortunately, I bought /have about two and a half feet left .  The last piece I bought was something like $120/ft.

[AtlLaw]

I just looked it up.  Really nice stuff, but what I want would run about $210 a foot!   

I may get some someday but I tell you what...  I'll darn sure have a bunch more practice putting bar stock to the wheel then I do now! 

Looks like Alabama Damascus blades for me for a while!   

[Joel]

I've some Mammoth Ivory and mokume.  I'm just trying to convince myself that I need to spend $200 on a Damasteel blank.  I will, eventually.  Never built one of them thar real fancy ones.

[inthebeech]

ATlaw is correct in the most common alloys that go into the product.  While very attractive, iI'd say that if you are truly interested in the highest performing blade that you can buy, you shouldn't get one.  The nickel, in small (very small) amounts, does impart toughness to an alloy but here it is for contrast when you go to etch.  That's about it.  As a compromise, I've made and can verify that pattern welded steel blades which came from Extra-hard plow steel cable, can give you a pretty good knife.  If you want to go this route, find a maker that advertises "cable damascus." 
Ed

[mechanic]

To hand forge a blade takes hours.  A person in it for the long haul would use a trip hammer or the like, but it still takes up to 200 reheats and forgings for a really good blade, then it has to be ground polished, etched and heat treated.

There are people living in mud huts forging on an old piece of rail that produce good steel, it's just impossible to know which ones.....

Ben

[KYBOY]

Good damascus will also list the materials used. Most will say something like 1095+15n20 or the like. We usually use 1084,1095,O1,15n20 and L6 in damascus. Not all just a mix. Damascus is a mix of high carbon steel like 1095,O1,1084 welded together with a high nickle alloy steel like 15n20,n203 or L6..Those bright stripes in damascus in the high nickle alloy showing thru the etch..

[Joel]

There's also stainless damascus(stamascus), which is what I'd prefer to work with when I get to working with it.  Mike Norris sells blanks, and people like Ed van Hoy make great knives out of it.  The mix can include AEB-L, D-2, 19C27, 302, 303(for nickel and contrast) etc.