Author Topic: What to grow? (Read 1914 times)

no guns here · « **on:** April 27, 2011, 10:48:55 AM »

Okay, I'm going to pose a hypothetical question, although it's actually a real possibility in the not too distant future for me.

If you had 40 acres in the eastern third of Oklahoma (the part with rain, water, trees and hills) and you weren't planning on living there for five years what would be plantable NOW? Assume that the growing areas would be small openings that would be fenced (6') hog wire (or something like that) to prevent predation.

My thought is fruit trees like apple, pear, cherry as well as berries and possible some melons and pumpkins. My thought is to plant the trees with the plastic tubes and surround that with a triangle of 6' fencing that would be about 5 foot on a side. The ground plants would be in fenced off sections about 20x20. Seems like they would grow some in the enclosure and then spread out. I know I'd probably have to do something more against hogs but it COULD work. Between that and a couple of ponds with fish it would be a good start for a retreat.

I would be there about 3-4 times a year for maintenance/fertilizer/etc.

NGH

blind ear · « **Reply #1 on:** April 27, 2011, 11:14:03 AM »

The cheapest way that I have found to plant nut trees is to plant seed. I get a native pecan or filberts (hazlenuts) from the grocery store or sawtooth acorns etc. When I find an area, where a tree has fallen or some other clear opening, that is suitable I dibble in a bunch of seed and hope for the best.

In some places when you dig up a spot the local critters may come behind you and dig them up. There it is best to till the area to disguise your planting. You still don't have to water and tend the trees. Any time I was scouting or hunting I kept a pocket of seed to plant if I found a good spot. A pointed stick is usually all that you need.

Good luck. ear

no guns here · « **Reply #2 on:** April 27, 2011, 11:51:45 AM »

Hmmm... nut trees sound good too. Lot's of areas in OK have native pecan. Everything will have to be native/heirloom. Don't want anything that won't pollinate/reproduce.

NGH

charles p · « **Reply #3 on:** April 27, 2011, 02:46:51 PM »

I would not trust a nut raised tree. How much can you save considering the time you will wait to see if it produces or not. Buy good nursery stock and do it right the first time. Some pecan trees need to be grafted to produce properly. When I was a kid we had a pecan tree that was fuly grown and it produced nuts the size of your thumbnail. Probably a wild grown tree that reverted to a poor breed in its "family tree". I'm 65, and it wa a full grown tree when I was a tot. Should have been cut down and replaced about 80 years ago.

Don't be penny wise and pound foolish.

vacek · « **Reply #4 on:** April 27, 2011, 03:06:50 PM »

I would get some sand plums and some wild/heritage grape going. Both should do great without a lot of attention and both provide a good source of vitamins. If you have a spot that has a high watertable you might consider asparagus. Also some perennial garlic and onions. You could get some dill going as it will reseed itself. In some area where you plan to have a garden at some point get a stand of alfalfa going and leave it be allowing it to go to seed and reseed itself. The symbiotic bacteria (rhyzobia) will help increse the nitrogen and the tap root will help loosen up the soil. When time for the garden someday, turn over the alfalfa (green manure).

blind ear · « **Reply #5 on:** April 27, 2011, 07:52:19 PM »

Trees raised from seed nuts work perfectly well if the nut is from a "true seeded" tree, not from a grafted tree but from a tree that grew from a seed it's self. The cost of one seedling will pay for a lot of seed. Seedlings need care a couple of years to make it until thier roots develope. When planting seedlings, spread the roots out in the hole, use heavy hay or grass mulch up to about 6 iches from the bark (fungus disease). This provides nutrients and water reserve.

The peanut size indian pecans are full of oil and some of the most expensive to buy if you can find them, candies and cakes.

You can flood a good spot for a tree with seed and they have thier own energy reserve as thier roots develope. You can plant them in minutes with a pointed stick.

Persimons will produce relativly quickly if you keep them well mulched and not choked by shade.

I started grafting trees at about age 10, taught by my father, and have gathered pecans from trees that I grafted and from trees that I planted from seed. I'm 60 and have planted trees and flowers most of my life.

Good luck, ear

keith44 · « **Reply #6 on:** April 27, 2011, 08:57:16 PM »

I would also recommend walnut trees (we have black walnuts that are native and wild grown here in Ky), apple trees need LOTS of care if you want a good crop and a healthy tree. Cherry trees are a battle with birds waiting to happen. Oaks, filberts, pecans, walnuts, etc all supply nuts, shade, wind breaks, and a source for some protien (squirrels).

As for berries, blackberries do quite well being left to their own devices, rasberries are similar in needs just thin and prune when you're ready for a good crop (the following year). Grapes can be left alone just prune and train as needed once a year.

Melons ? not me.

blind ear · « **Reply #7 on:** April 28, 2011, 02:36:25 AM »

Look at old homesteads and farm sites in your area. The varieties of fruit or nut trees that are most common and appear to have been neglected for long periods or abandoned all together are the ones that will be most likely to survive there. Those old farm/house sites are good place to get rootings, cuttings, sapplings. sprouts and seeds to start with.

ear

no guns here · « **Reply #8 on:** April 28, 2011, 05:41:05 AM »

Here's the deal. I just retired from the AF and started a fairly decent contracting job. I'm really pushing my wife on the idea of buying about 30-40 acres SOMEWHERE and SOON. My intention is to build a small retreat that has a start on producing fruits, nuts, some types of veggies and such. I don't intend to harvest or live there (anytime soon anyway) but it would be nice if I HAD to live there to have a start on some of that. I'm leaning toward eastern OK. We are both from OK so it's not like a foreign area or anything to us. Looking for an area with decent rain, grass, trees and weather. Nothing TOO hot and dry and nothing TOO cold for too long in the winter. While I really want more land. My idea is to buy what I can pay off in the next 1-2 years. I can buy more land later. Anyway... I want a piece of land with 1-2 ponds, a well, and fairly near a lake (of which there are many large ones in eastern OK). At least 10 acres or so of trees is necessary too. I don't have any issues with fencing off some "garden" areas and letting the stuff grow wild with some pruning/fertilizing a couple of times a year at first.

NGH

Lost Farmboy · « **Reply #9 on:** April 28, 2011, 01:02:57 PM »

My first thought was nuts. Didn't have time to post. I see others had the same idea. Asparagus and rhubarb would be good. Anything that takes time to mature.

vacek · « **Reply #10 on:** April 28, 2011, 04:27:52 PM »

Don't forget the horse radish. You might be able to survive without it, but why would you want to. I mean is life without horse radish really life?

RIF · « **Reply #11 on:** April 28, 2011, 06:13:36 PM »

I'll add to get started on Asparagus, Jerusalem artichoke, and rhubarb as they are perennials and take awhile to get established. That is if you like any of them anyway.

no guns here · « **Reply #12 on:** April 29, 2011, 03:20:56 AM »

Well, I do like asparagus but have no experience with the others. But I guess if wouldn't matter. It's food right? Sort of like, my wife doesn't eat fish/seafood but I want a pond to help with protein. If it comes to it and she gets hungry, I'm sure she'll dive into a plate of bluegill or catfish right?

NGH

RIF · « **Reply #13 on:** April 29, 2011, 09:48:12 PM »

Well Rhubard pie is so doggone good you'd have to be a communist if you tried it and did not like it. The Jerusalem artichoke is a neat plant. They are a sunflower, but you dig the tubers and eat them. Treat them like a potato. They are darn good, and are in the dirt when you want them. Asparagus once established can be a nuisance. The bed will last many years. It takes three years just to get them rolling though. The boodthirsty pocket gophers will clear out the artichokes pretty quick. The deer will eat the asparagus. Have fun battling nature.

My uncle got a huge fine for shooting a couple of herons in his pond one time. Not for eating fish, but for eating his frogs. He loved frog legs.

I have been a subsistence farmer for many years. I say subsistence, because if it weren't for what I planted I would not subside. I see many folks plant a few trees, have a patch of a garden to get maters and they are happy. If you really want to live off what your land provides, your going to need many, many trees. Those trees can take decades to get in their prime, especially the nuts. Plant as many of them as you can, and try to do it in an attractive manner. The dwarfs or semi dwarfs are good to have, but deer will anihalate them. If you have deer around, you will need to fence them. Plant what you like. Sometimes there will be a hard year, and your trees will not produce. If anything you want to overestimate your needs. An orchard of 50 or 60 fruit trees might get you by. If you are doing apples and cider you will need 30 trees for that. Dried apples in winter are a gift from God! So is applejack. Likewise with the pond, go to the county ag extension office and see what they recommend as to size, spillway, species, etc.

Build some outbuildings while your at it. When you are at the farm sale, maybe that big old propane tank would make a good water pressure tank? Make an evergreen windbreak. If you are going to have large animals in the future, you don't want to be having their smells and flies waft over the home on the evening breeze. So don't plan to put the house downwind...right? It all takes a lot more thinking and planning than it seems just drivin by on the blacktop. This will take you a long time to get right. Take heart in the fact that you probably never will. Life is short as they say. Once you have that knowledge you got it. Practicing is really just another word for farming.

Get those bee hives going too!! Wild hives are dying off steadily. There are only so many moths and bumble bees to pollinate that new orchard of yourn. Think ahead brother. Dig that root cellar. Buy that cheap load of concrete block.

The most important part is having fun, and not being strapped to the stupid grocery store for everything you need.

I think its pretty neat you want to do all this.

bilmac · « **Reply #14 on:** April 30, 2011, 02:03:29 AM »

If you leave small plots with tasty things growing there, pretty much unattended, it will be very hard to keep pigs out. They just stick a nose under a fence and walk under. Pretty soon your pretty fence is a ball of tangled wire. Deer will go over if they want.

That said what RIF said is good advice, get a few perennial garden plots going now if you can. Either build your fence strong and high, or another idea is to use a small electric fencer. There are some that will run a long time on a battery, or there are small solar powered outfits.

Now is a good time to be buying. Be sure to look at foreclosures for sale.

Bugflipper · « **Reply #15 on:** April 30, 2011, 11:23:49 AM »

Fruit trees are better with a little planning. Most folks think, well I'd like my own apple tree, so they go to the nursery and buy whatever apple tree they have for 30-50 dollars. If you research a little you can find fruit and nut trees for 5-10 each. You can get 5-10 trees for the price of one it gives a little room for planning. Let's say you buy 5 apple trees. The fruit maturity on them is July 1st- November 14th. So you have 5 trees one ripens each month. The ones that do not store well are eaten fresh. Root cellar storage will carry certain types until at least April of the next year. Canning and freezing can make them keep a little longer. So effectively you have year round apples for the price of one local tree. There is no need for sticking to native/nonhybrid because you have 5 trees to pollinate one another. Generally speaking the native varieties are not as palatable as the hybrids. I don't know about your particular area. But the homestead apples here are the sour, hard, tiny things that are reserved for feeding to the livestock on my place.

If you like peaches, pears, plums, blueberries, nectarines and so on, you can use the same methods of planting varieties by fruit maturity date and extend the season greatly. Along with the fruit and nut trees there are all kinds of vines. The blackberry and raspberry may be better if you get thornless. Don't forget grapes, blueberries and figs if you like them.
http://www.eburgess.com/prodnav.asp?cat_search=Afn&nav=fan&header=All~Fruits~and~Nuts This place has a pretty good variety of fruits and nuts at decent prices. I have actually ordered from orchards at $2.50 each tree for 100 trees. They let me mix and match varieties and species. Can't remember where I ordered from though. I have ordered from the link above and everything lived and is now producing fruit several years later. It is a good place to check in on their 1 cent sale. You can often get 2 fruit or nut trees for under 10 when they are having sales. I have yet to have anything die from them.

Pat/Rick · « **Reply #16 on:** April 30, 2011, 01:27:27 PM »

I would tend to go with native type species, fruit,berry, nuts, for what you are describing. Also fruit trees that will do well in the area (an orchardist advice works well). If you can get there a couple times of year, you can spray or do whatever care needs done. I'm tending to agree with plants already started, at least for the "core crops", you can compare them to other plants/trees and pick out what looks to be the healthiest.

Bugflipper,RIF, good advice! Thanks.

bilmac · « **Reply #17 on:** May 01, 2011, 02:41:39 AM »

Starting out with what grows wild in your area makes sense. We don't have a lot of wild fruits and berrys in our part of the world, but chokecherrys and plums grow wild fairly close. I planted both plus a lot of exotic stuff about 3 years ago. Then we had a grasshopper plague of Biblical proportions. They were eating the bark off the exotic stuff, I don't know if any will make it through the winter or not. But the hoppers left the chokecherrys and native plums completely alone.

I would go with easy stuff first and wait till you have more time till later.

keith44 · « **Reply #18 on:** May 01, 2011, 06:11:27 AM »

+1 an all native planting is the way to go. A soil test (survey samle areas from all over the property) and a look at what's growing in a 15 or 20 mile radius would be good ideas too

Lost Farmboy · « **Reply #19 on:** May 01, 2011, 02:04:46 PM »

A lot of good advice here from many posters. This is a great thread.
As said before planning is the most important part. The more you learn the better your plan will be. When buying the land consider the surrounding land you want to buy. Will it add to your plan or subtract from it? Try to work with the trees that are already there.

The alfalfa plot mentioned before will not only condition the soil, it will attract wildlife. Maybe you can lease the hunting rights. Hunters could take care of any pig problems.

Did somebody say bee hives? I was thinking about starting a sustainable beekeeping thread. Is anybody interested?

bilmac · « **Reply #20 on:** May 01, 2011, 06:43:42 PM »

I built a top bar hive this winter and put a package of bees in it this spring. The top bar hive style is supposed to be a more natural way to grow bees. Less input , you don't do a lot of chemical intervention and things like that. You pretty much let the bees do their own thing. The trade off is you get less output too.

blind ear · « **Reply #21 on:** May 01, 2011, 08:16:07 PM »

Quote from: Lost Farmboy on May 01, 2011, 02:04:46 PM

A lot of good advice here from many posters. This is a great thread.
As said before planning is the most important part. The more you learn the better your plan will be. When buying the land consider the surrounding land you want to buy. Will it add to your plan or subtract from it? Try to work with the trees that are already there.

The alfalfa plot mentioned before will not only condition the soil, it will attract wildlife. Maybe you can lease the hunting rights. Hunters could take care of any pig problems.

Did somebody say bee hives? I was thinking about starting a sustainable beekeeping thread. Is anybody interested?

Has been interest shown on occasion here. I haven't done any bees but I am always interested in homestead crafts and skills from the cave era all the way through the black powder arms/cast iron cookware age.

ear

Lost Farmboy · « **Reply #22 on:** May 02, 2011, 02:27:25 AM »

Quote from: bilmac on May 01, 2011, 06:43:42 PM

I built a top bar hive this winter and put a package of bees in it this spring. The top bar hive style is supposed to be a more natural way to grow bees. Less input , you don't do a lot of chemical intervention and things like that. You pretty much let the bees do their own thing. The trade off is you get less output too.

Bilmac I love top bar hives. I started with one top bar and one standard Lang hive. The top bar cost me $25 to build, done. The Lang cost me $50 to get started with another $150 to complete. I use no chemicals in my hives.

You really need 2 or 3 hives, hope you build one more.

bilmac · « **Reply #23 on:** May 02, 2011, 06:25:13 AM »

I hope to split my colony some day and get one or two more guys in our Church going. I figure you will need at least two colonies to be sustainable.

no guns here · « **Reply #24 on:** May 02, 2011, 06:54:58 AM »

Okay... so now we are getting somewhere with the advice. This has turned into a pretty good thread. I've got ideas and plans drawn up for some of the things. We'll have bigger animals (wife likes her horses) but not right up on the house. My plan would be to plant 5-10 different species with maybe 10-15 trees of each if I can get the right piece of land to support it. If I fenced off some smaller areas for starting some "crops" of vegetables and such, I'd use decent 6' chainlink fence panels that have a rail on top and bottom. That should stop most deer and hogs. Worst case I'll put a solar hot wire around the bottom. Would really love to get a place with some decent bottom crop land and a hill side or two for the trees/house. Fruit trees, chickens, grazing pigs, taters, corn, some tomatoes and a nicely stocked pond would be a great start. Heck it might make a great end point too. As long as that included some nicely wooded areas with hardwoods for the stove/heat that would be great too.

NGH

Lost Farmboy · « **Reply #25 on:** May 02, 2011, 02:44:10 PM »

To me the most important part about planning the landscape is making it animal friendly. A good design will use animals to help with the work. Plant large nut trees like pecans far enough apart that they will let enough light through to grow grass when mature. Plant small groups of fruit trees between the nuts. Fence the fruit trees so that small sheep ( I like the miniature baby doll south downs ) can get under and keep the grass and weeds mowed, but keep the horses from eating the apples. The orchard serves as a pasture and you don not have to cut the grass. Chickens free ranging with the animals will eat the maggots and worms in the manure piles, that prevents flies from taking over and animals from getting worms.

If you have a steep hill with a southern exposure, plant grapes with rows vertically going up the hill. The angle of the hill will make the grapes sweeter. Let sheep keep the grass down until harvest. After harvest send in the goats and they will do 75% of the pruning.

reliquary · « **Reply #26 on:** May 03, 2011, 04:50:22 AM »

I've been an amateur grower-of-things-to-eat since retirement from the Army in '86. Here's my $.02 for no guns here:

Great idea on the "enclave" thing! Bad news: you can't grow most commercial cultivars of peaches and plums if you only tend to them 3-4 times per year. They need spraying every 7-10 days for fruit-eating insects and fungi during fruiting, and twice yearly for trunk-killers during dormancy. There are a few old-time peaches such as the "Indian Blood" which are hardy and pretty much self-maintaining. Bugs get into them every now and then, but they come back from the roots. Deer will nibble them as high as they can reach, making them into attractive, tall plants. Plums such as the old native "wild" one will spread out into thickets and are productive. There are varieties called plumcots or pluots which serve as rootstock for grafting which also spread out into thickets and do well untended. Once you retire there, learn grafting. =)

Some apples grow pretty well untended. Johnny Appleseed planted seeds by the thousands and many of those trees are still growing, as are many old trees around untended homesteads through the Smokies and Ozarks. Try that, and also plant a few Anna, Golden Dorsett, and Granny Smith trees inside wire until they get tall enough to survive deer browsing. I have some that are 10 years old and grow "organically" and produce 3-5 bushels each per year.

Plant hardy pecans (native and Stewart) inside wire until they get too high for deer to nibble on. Bad news: it takes several years (10-15) before pecans can be harvested in any quantity.

Ideally, plant all these fruit and nut trees within rifle shot of your future homesite as well as scattered out through your acreage.

Find productive wild grapevines/muscadines in your area and transplant a few onto your place. Make arbors out of rebar for them to grow on. They'll be there when you get there to tend them. Most any Concord grape variety will do well in E OK. I have them, plus bronze and blue muscadines, that do well here in E TX.

Few veggies will grow reliably, untended.

teddy12b · « **Reply #27 on:** May 03, 2011, 05:27:12 AM »

Great topic, I was about to ask the same thing!

no guns here · « **Reply #28 on:** May 03, 2011, 08:54:08 AM »

reliquary,

My full intentions were to grow native/heirloom plants. I know that the modern varieties take much more care/feeding/spraying etc. The native, wild varieties are the only ones that could be started and then left on their own. We'll see how it goes. Right now, we have to decide whether to rent or buy in San Antonio for the next year or two.

NGH

reliquary · « **Reply #29 on:** May 03, 2011, 03:29:52 PM »

"Native" stuff is the way to go. A lot of nurseries carry them, but not exclusively.

If you're in the SA area, check out the Mustang variety of grapes. Very hardy. Nurserymen estimate that 90% of all wild vines are sterile, so if you try your own rootings or cuttings, get them from established, proven producers.

Forgot to mention pears...Kiefer and Bartlett are easy to grow and will last for decades untended. That's one of the ways I spot old houseplaces in the Piney Woods. I know of one tree that's easily over 100 years old.

Roseboro (sp?), Navajo, and Brazos variety blackberries will spread into thickets that last for years. Some of my
Roseboro have been in place for 20+ years. I haven't had much luck with raspberries. Elderberries are easy to grow, spread quickly, and bear when nothing else will.

Once you get into "fruiting", you will be absolutely amazed at the number of critters that enjoy them: coons, possums, squirrels, crows, mockingbirds, jays, woodpeckers, cardinals, deer, hogs, feral transient twolegs, and in-laws.