Author Topic: Fuel additives ?? (Read 2273 times)

243dave · « **on:** April 29, 2011, 09:36:31 PM »

Well the topic of ways to improve your fuel mileage always occur when gas prices soar. Lets hear what some of you guys add to your fuel to get a bit more mpg's. I've heard them all (I think) and tried a few. Right now I'm mess'n with two stroke oil and will give updates and details later, right now it seems positive though. Dave

cwlongshot · « **Reply #1 on:** April 30, 2011, 01:40:22 AM »

I have been using them for many years!

I like SEA FOAM first and foremost. I use it in all my small engines with every tank. I'm especially worried about the effects of Ethanol in my expensive, ATV and Motorcycle engines! I use it occasionally in my Jeeps. http://www.seafoamsales.com/motor-treatment.html http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjXViwb97qc

I also like STAR-TRON. I use this in the boats. http://mystarbrite.com/startron/

Then I use LUCAS fuel treatment. http://www.lucasoil.com/products/display_products.sd?catid=2&iid=26

CW

bilmac · « **Reply #2 on:** April 30, 2011, 02:15:08 AM »

I use Sea Foam occasionally, but do you actually think it might increase MPG, CW? Gas is getting expensive enough now that a little bit of improvement from some additive may be worth the cost of some of these expensive treatments. My guess is that the active ingredient in Sea Foam is probably nothing more than methanol though, just another kind of alcohol.

GatCat · « **Reply #3 on:** April 30, 2011, 04:13:39 AM »

I don'd think any additive,by itself, is going to increase fuel economy. Certainly, if the engine is not running as it is supposed to, due to dirty fuel injectors, or if carb'd, if say it has a sticky choke causing it to run rich, then additives to help correct the problem might/should help, getting the engine to run as it should.
I think the basics are best followed; proper tire pressure, engine in good tune, etc. Some tricks that should help would be a low restriction air cleaner/ intake system, a less restrictive exhaust system. Make the engine work as little as possible by not packing around a bunch of dead weight in trunk/ bed. Keep the speed down ( pushing air goes up by the square ). The old "egg under the gas pedal" attitude.
Most all cars & trucks built in the last 20 years have been designed, by necessity, for best possible fuel economy. One very little item often overlooked is the air dam under the front bumper, often torn off by accident. They really help re-direct air at speed, keeping it from creating drag...if yours is missing, get a replacement.
Mark

243dave · « **Reply #4 on:** April 30, 2011, 05:04:58 AM »

I agree with you Mark cars are designed well and if taken care of will give reasonable fuel economy but the people who make our fuel do not want to give us a more efficient fuel that the consumer can benefit from, that would cut into the oil companys huge profits. What if there was a product that was made to clean your engine and lubricate it at the same time and only cost pennies a tank, there is and we put it in our boats. I've been using marine grade 2-cycle oil. I've only done it for a few tanks in my 05 dodge durango with a 4.7 v-8 and full time 4wd. I've improved from from an average of 15.1 to 16.3 mpg, a mix of city, back-roads and highway miles, driving is done in the some places every day except for a extra trip in town occasionally. To me this is a additive that makes sense. All the gasoline around these parts have 10% ethanol and while alcohols are good cleaners they are in no way a good lubricant. I purchase the cheap wal-mart TC-W3 two cycle oil and add 1oz. to every 5 gallons. I know...I know running a few tanks of this combo don't prove nothing but it does make sense to me. I didn't make this up I'll give you a link thats been going on for fifty pages and 3 years, these guys seem to have documented proof that it does help but I'll have to make my own documented proof before I'm a believer but so far I have seen an increase, it may be a fluke but maybe not, time and some more tanks of $3.74 a gallon of gasoline will tell. Dave
http://www.ls1.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91206

bilmac · « **Reply #5 on:** April 30, 2011, 05:24:31 AM »

That's the kind of stuff we are looking for, 243. Makes sense too. Years ago I used to run my lawn mower exclusively on 50:1 boat motor gas, because I didn't want a lot of gas cans around. Folks said it would screw up my mower, but it never did, and that was before TCW3

Bugflipper · « **Reply #6 on:** April 30, 2011, 01:22:26 PM »

There are still two stations around that sale 100% gas. I buy it because it gives me 3 mpg over ethanol blend and is the same price.
I have not tried either but some claim 2 oz acetone to a tank increases mpg. Others say it's hogwash. Stumbled on some site last week and they were electrifying peroxide and I assume putting the vapors in the intake. Same concept was used with baking soda. Didn't really have time to look into it. Now I really can't remember what they were calling it.

Personally I just increase the intake and exhaust flow rate. Gives hp, which gives fuel economy. Would like to learn about additives. Wouldn't think there is anything being sold today that works or everyone would be using it.

Bugflipper · « **Reply #7 on:** April 30, 2011, 01:30:07 PM »

BTW what is that sea foam stuff? Heard a lot of folks recommending it on the car forums. What does it do? Another thing is marbles mystery oil. They recommend a small amount in the gas to lube the top end (not as oil additive as it is sold). Valves and such I presume. Sorry Dave, not a lot to do with on topic. But to keep it rolling I thought of what they called the peroxide or baking soda and water thingies. Home made hydrogen cells. May be a search term for someone wanting to explore.

eye shot · « **Reply #8 on:** April 30, 2011, 03:15:49 PM »

They took most of the sulfer out of diesel that helped lube your engine. An independent trucker told me to use 2 cycle motor oil to help lube everything. He didn't say anything about improved milage. It hasn't hurt my Dura Max milage.

243dave · « **Reply #9 on:** April 30, 2011, 07:28:36 PM »

Bugflipper, I've done a lot of experimenting with hydrogen cells (properly termed HHO generators) and my advice is don't waste your time. The internet is full of these things claiming some amazing gains and if they were true everyone would have them. I installed one on a 96 ranger and lost 1 1/2 mpg, than I leaned back the fuel by using O2 extenders and the HHO generator and only gained a 1/2 mpg over the original mileage. I admit the truck seemed to run smoother with more power but I could gain more than a 1/2 mpg by driving the speed limit so I gave it up.
Dave

GatCat · « **Reply #10 on:** April 30, 2011, 09:29:48 PM »

Quote from: eye shot on April 30, 2011, 03:15:49 PM

They took most of the sulfer out of diesel that helped lube your engine. An independent trucker told me to use 2 cycle motor oil to help lube everything. He didn't say anything about improved milage. It hasn't hurt my Dura Max milage.

I have an '05 Dodge diesel. Once they switched to ultra low sulpher fuel, I religiously use an additive. I use Stanadyne ( they also make fuel injector pumps, so I figure they should know a thing or two ), but there are others that are supposed to be real good.
Also, since we are on the subject of additives, nearly all engine oil for the last few years has been zinc free, for compatibilty with newer catalytic convertors. This is ok with newer engines with overhead cams, and even pushrod engines with roller lifters, but with older pushrod engines with solid or hydraulic lifter, it will wear the cam lobes very rapidly, "killing" the engine. Which is why I stopped using Shell Rotella in my diesel ( used to be a favorite with diesel folks ) and went to a certain Amsoil blend, made for the older engines. Amsoil also makes a blend for newer engines.
That is also one change the might/should helps most folks get a little bit better milage, switch engine, tranny, diff, t-case oils to synthetic oils, more slilppery, less friction loss, AND longer lifte between changes.
Mark

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #11 on:** May 01, 2011, 01:47:43 AM »

I just cant see scientificaly how 2 stroke oil could possbily help gas milage unless you motor was is such bad shape that you had alot of blow by and even then i doubt that the small amount your using in your gas would do much to seal the rings. Gas with oil in it isnt as volitable and if anything would loose some power. Loose power you loose milage. Not only that but your going to have an increase of carbon in your combustion chamber. Maybe that after a while would increase compression and give a bit more milage. but its going to be a fine line between when it helps and when it causes detonation. Bottom line is that if there were anything that could be added to fuel to make it more effiecient everyone would be doing it. Most additives do nothing and the few that do something usually do more harm then good. About the only thing i add to gas i stabil when im storing something or seafoam if its running rough but even then only do it once and if it doesnt help i go after the real problem.

243dave · « **Reply #12 on:** May 01, 2011, 05:52:30 AM »

Lloyd, I understand what you mean, I'm not convinced either but I am seeing some early results. Lubricants in your fuel is a good thing, just not too much. Two stroke motors have a much higher mix ratio than what I'm adding and are very powerful engines. In the 80's and early 90's there were experiments with 2 stroke engines in small car applications, most engines were about only a liter and they produced a lot more power than straight gasoline motors of similar sizes with better fuel economy. The only reason they never saw production was because of emission reasons. Last night I averaged another tank of gas and it got me 16.58 mpg, not bad for a 4.7 v-8 full time 4wd Durango, plus I never drive the speed limit, and it was a mix of town, backroad and a little highway driving. I have never got better than 17.9 mpg out of my durango on straight highway driving, when I get a chance to do a couple of highway trips I will decide then if 2 cycle oil in gas is worth the trouble or not.
Dave

bilmac · « **Reply #13 on:** May 01, 2011, 12:23:06 PM »

Too bad you can't get two stroke engines in small cars. Great hp weight ratio. But I guess the trend is the other way, even boat motors are going 4 stroke these days.

hillbill · « **Reply #14 on:** May 01, 2011, 02:22:44 PM »

this may be a bit off topic but here in my rural farming community im hearing a lot of problems with injector pumps on older farm and heavy equipment caused by the lower lubricity fuels.i use standyne additive but ive heard of a lot of guys useing dextron tranny fluid in their fuel on tractors and dozers, backhoes etc. its not to decrease fuel usage but to decrease expensive injector pump reuilds.

243dave · « **Reply #15 on:** May 01, 2011, 03:54:44 PM »

Hillbill, that kind of stuff is right on topic and relative especially for people using pump diesel and not off-road diesel in their farm tractors and heavy equipment. The new diesel may be better for air quality but its worse for a fellows engine. Heres one for you guys, have you ever heard of using mothballs as a gasoline additive??

bilmac · « **Reply #16 on:** May 01, 2011, 06:35:11 PM »

Heard about mothballs years ago. Soon after they introduced unleaded fuel you couldn't hardly get high octane gas. My dad's Impala called for it and we heard that mothballs were supposed to improve the octane rating,so we tried a few. We never could see that they made any difference.

243dave · « **Reply #17 on:** May 01, 2011, 07:44:08 PM »

Well I gotta confess I've experimented with mothballs(the ones made of naphthalene only and after a lot of research). A few years ago I ran them in my high mileage 96 ranger with a 3.0 motor and they done very well. I used one mothball per 5 gallons for several months. I gained 2 mpg and the truck seemed to run smoother and no ill effects. So why did I quit using them ? My boy started driving the truck and the practice just died. I'm not suggesting that anyone do it, I'm just reporting my results. I may try it in the durango after my 2 cycle oil experiments or perhaps do them at the same time.
Dave

bilmac · « **Reply #18 on:** May 02, 2011, 01:36:28 AM »

I thought mothballs are paradichlorobenzene

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #19 on:** May 02, 2011, 02:03:08 AM »

two stroke motors have come along ways lately. the direct injected ones used in outboards and snowmobiles are just as fuel effiecient as the 4 strokes and just as clean burning. They would probably work in a car and would there light weight would be a big advantage. Only problem is that nobody has still found a way to make a 2 stroke motor last as long as a typical 4 stroke. The longevity problem is the same one that bit the rotary engine in the but. It too is a much more effecient system but friction gets the best of them

243dave · « **Reply #20 on:** May 02, 2011, 03:52:56 AM »

Bilmac, there are two different kind of mothballs(naphthalene and paradichlorobenzene) made by the same company, there may be more but these are the only two I'm aware of. Paradichlorobenzene(Para Mothballs) is suppose to be harmful to engines, not sure if its true, no first hand experience. If you experiment with mothballs make sure you use the ones made of naphthalene. They are generally labeled Old Fashion Mothballs. They are a aromatic hydrocarbon made from coal tar or petroleum and commonly used many years ago when octane ratings were only 40 and 60 to raise the ratings to a more acceptable level. Around here (NC) naphthalene mothballs are sold at the Dollar General Store. Using too many can be counter-productive, I had good results(a increase of 2 mpg) using only 1 naphthlene mothball per 5 gallons of gasoline.

Bugflipper · « **Reply #21 on:** May 02, 2011, 04:15:18 AM »

I bought an old mustang with a 289 hi po years ago. They had stroked the motor and changed it from 10.5-1 to 11.7-1 compression ratio. I wanted it for a driver, they had it as a drag racer running on aviation gas. The guy told me to put so many mothballs per tank to run on pump gas. Stressed to use the one that sounds like NAPA. So I believe Dave has it right. To us hillbillies it was naptha or even easier to remember napa to associate with the parts store. It seems like 20 balls per tank on 87 octane but it's been 20 years or so.

Some words of caution though. That was a carbureted engine. Have no idea if this would clog any filters or injectors. I have always ran a fuel filter but the see through inline may not be as small in micron protection as one of those big factory ones. I don't know if they have the naptha ones available anymore. Also I would have to run stainless steel packed mufflers because it would burn up the fiberglass packed ones. The unburnt fuel would ignite in the exhaust and shoot out the end of the pipes a little bit when you got on it.

Dave I wrote that above before you posted. Mythbusters did a test on those para balls and they did not increase octane. I don't need them to tell me whether the others will or not because 87 octane will not work in an 11.7-1 engine. Things will go very badly very quickly.

Rex in OTZ · « **Reply #22 on:** May 10, 2011, 09:14:19 AM »

I use additives once in awhile for fuel quality (HEET in winter) and mabe a injecter/system cleaner once or twice a year.

I remember my father had a Chevy Diesel Suburban, used to add a snort of ATF/Mercron II to the fuel to keep the injectors clean.

Old gas is a problem, fueling from a bulk tank (300-500gal) used to be a issue and one could encounter octane issues due to breakdown.
The issue here in Bush Alaska with only one bulk fuel delivery a year, 86 octane is already 4-6 months old before its barged here and then tank farmed and dispenced for another 12 or more months.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #23 on:** May 10, 2011, 09:37:56 AM »

44K to clean and lucas as a additive for diesel . also lucas for gas engine to clean . Want to save fuel keep tires inflated to max .

wtxbadger · « **Reply #24 on:** May 10, 2011, 04:35:57 PM »

So let's see? Big Oil wants to ruin your engines by altering or getting rid of the additives they used to put in gasoline? Or they are desperately protecting their profits and trying to boost them by not producing a more efficient fuel? Geez if that is the case they must be conspiring with Big Auto so Big Auto can sell more vehicles when your car or truck self destructs at say a 100K or 200K? It was not that long ago when we were rebuilding engines at 50K or 75K miles. So I guess you must be right. That darned old Big Oil and Big Auto must be conspiring together.

I apologize for being a tad sarcastic but sometimes it is not possible to keep from pointing out the obvious faults on some lines of reasoning. No matter the size of the company or the product they offer, they are not all out there to cheat you and rob you blind. The age old story of the 200 mpg carb and other stories that follow its ilk need to be put to rest.

wtxbadger

243dave · « **Reply #25 on:** May 10, 2011, 06:33:05 PM »

wtxbadger, Your not a tad sarcastic, your way overboard with your comments. No one here is talking about 200 mpg carbs and Big Auto and Big Oil conspiring together. We are talking about ways to improve mileage. Some things have been taken out of fuels to help out with air quality and I'm fine with that, but the clean diesel seems hard on injector pumps and other components. Things such as ethanol is added to gasoline and it is fact that its output is less than gasoline, that results in less mileage. Do you really believe that fuel companies make their fuel as efficient as they can ?? That would be shooting themselves in the foot and netting them less profits, you gotta keep the share-holders happy and they are real happy when making lots of money.
Dave

flintlock · « **Reply #26 on:** May 11, 2011, 01:52:02 AM »

It's like watering down whiskey...It makes it go further but the end results aren't as satisfying...

wtxbadger · « **Reply #27 on:** May 11, 2011, 09:10:44 AM »

My apologies if I stepped on anyones toes. I have worked in the oil patch for over 28 years and it seems like everywhere you look there are people bashing oil companies, refiners, jobbers, and retailers. Fuel formulations are strictly regulated by the feds and there is no getting around what they stipulate. Being the former owner of a 93 Dodge cummins pickup I hear your concerns on the low sulfur diesel. I used two cycle oil in it to try and keep my engine from wearing out faster because of the newer diesel mandated by the government.

No I don't believe that refiners are deliberately making crappy diesel or gasoline in order to sell more product. I do believe that some refiners do produce fuels that are not as good as others to keep their cost down. However gasoline, diesel, and fuel oil are a publicly traded commodity and the price we pay at the pump or have delivered is driven by that fact.

Considering the multitude of congressional investigations into oil companies, refiners, and marketers over the past many years you would think something would have come out as result and I have yet to see any shred of evidence that there is any collusion or deliberate attempt by any of them to rip off the consumer

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #28 on:** May 11, 2011, 10:01:20 AM »

I wouldn't expect any thing would come out with all the oil greasing the skidds

243dave · « **Reply #29 on:** May 11, 2011, 10:30:06 AM »

We slightly disagree and thats fine. I realize that the feds have the final say what is in our fuels but my point is this, if a not overly educated person like myself can find ways to pick up a couple mpg by adding a very cheap additive to my fuel that passes emissions than why can't a huge corporation with the best scientists in the field figure out a way to make a more efficient blend of fuel. The answer I suspect is because it would be 10's of millions in profit loss. Its better for them if our tanks need filled up more often. They make it burn clean to please the EPA but there is no real priority placed on efficiency. While I realize my argument proves little and my not sway anyone but I feel I do have some proof that big oil companies DO RIP OFF THE CONSUMER. ---and here it is---- We pay over $3.80 a gallon of gas and diesel is over $4, have you seen Exxon's quarterly profits ?? They made 10.65 billion compared to 6.5 billion last year at the same time. Heres a short article with more #'s
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/28/us-exxonmobil-idUSTRE73R35O20110428

Exxon is not the only company that posted huge increased quarterly profits the others did as well but theirs was the largest. I'm not mad at station owners and distributors but some of the big companies and OPEC has a huge influence in the worlds economy, they not only decide how much we pay at the pump but how much my grocery bill is too, I guess thats what we get for being a petroleum dependent culture.
Dave