.280 140gr vs 168gr recoil

[jabey9210]

Will there be a noticeable difference of recoil in a .280 going from 168gr berger vld's down to 140gr berger vld's.  I only ask because on the load data the start point of  the 140's is the same as the max load of the 168's in the same powders.  The reason is it is my wife's gun and she feels the 168's have a little to much recoil for her taste.  So I am concerned about wasting my time trying to work up loads and seating depths for the 140's if because of the greater amount of powder I will not be loosing any recoil. The load that shot the 168's best out of her gun was 54 grains of IMR7828ssc.The start load for the 140's using IMR7828ssc is 53.0gr's and I am guessing by the time I work up the sweet load I will probably somewhere between 56 and 59gr's.  So I'm confused what 2 to 5gr's of more powder and a lighter projectile will produce in comparison when it comes to recoil.  Any help would be appreciated.

[john keyes]

I would guess the recoil would be less, but the noise and blast might be more, which could be just as intimidating for her.

I just got some 160 BTSP for my .280, gonna load some up.  I was wondering if the bullets I bought were really meant for 7 mag.

My 280 is a 700 Mountain, and I can best describe the recoil as "additive".  Its no problem for a few shots but it starts to add up, ie at the range when checking zero's and loads.

[Silvertp]

No science here, but my subjective call, based on building loads for 20+ Calibers over 40+ years is recoil increases more when going up in bullet wt. than when going up in powder charge.  Most loads I find that shoot well are close to max. charges with light or heavy for caliber bullet. 

What I believe you will find is the 140's will recoil less, even with more powder, than the 168's.  Whether that will be enough less to pass your wife's recoil tolerance is a completely different question.  Load up a moderate to heavy load with the 140's and let her shoot a few.  I would worry more about her perception of the recoil than I would working to find a sweet spot at this point.

Don't forget...recoil seems to go away in a hunting situation.  You could always find a nice load for her to practice with and load your sweet spot rounds for hunting.

Silvertp

[Lloyd Smale]

probably a bit less but if the recoil is actually bothering her its not going to be enough of a reduction to make it majicaly comfortable. If shes stuck with that gun id fit up a limbsaver recoil pad as that will do more to make it comforatble then anything. If she wouldnt mind a bit more added weight when you do the pad drill a hole in the but stock and fill it with lead shot.

[LanceR]

jabey, if you could give us some more specific information we could give you more specific answers.

What muzzle velocity are you looking for for the two loads?  What does the rifle weigh with scope and rings?  If you don't have a scale you can weigh it on, what model rifle and scope?  Is this for hunting and, if so, what kind of game at what distances?  This last would help with overall recommendations.

Since the powder mass is ejected out of the barrel with the bullet the amount of recoil is a function of the total weight of the bullet and powder at a specific velocity.  Felt recoil is that energy factored into the weight of the rifle, rings, scope and anything else firmly attached to the rifle.  Sling weight usually doesn't count.  Velocity

My experience has been that most folks loading VLDs push them pretty hard.  Since the principal advantage of IMR 7828SSC is to get more powder into a case I'll guess that's what you are doing. 

If you are doing that then there will be very little recoil reduction going to the lighter bullet.  Since your loads would have it going faster than the 168 the recoil, for practical purposes will be close to the same.  A 168 grain bullet with 54 grains of powder at 2700 FPS from an 8 pound rifle/scope combination generates 19.8 pounds of recoil force which is near the level where most shooter performance drops off due to recoil.  Changing to a 140 grain bullet with 59 grains of powder at 2900 FPS the recoil is about 18.5 pounds.  The recoil issue will be greatly aggravated with a very light rifle.

Most shooters, especially those who are recoil conscious, are not going to perceive the change as significant.

Again, knowing what your target is and at what ranges would help.

There is a good article on understanding recoil at:  http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_recoil.htm

If you are interested in developing a reduced recoil load the most versatile powder I know of is Hodgdon's H4895.  You can take the maximum powder charge for any cartridge for which Hodgon lists an H4895 load and multiply it by 0.6 to come up with the lowest recommended powder charge that will uniformly ignite and give consistent pressures and velocities.  If you can't find H4895 data for a particular bullet and cartridge call their tech folks.  The have oodles od load data that is not on the website.

There is an article on reduced recoil loads at:  http://www.chuckhawks.com/reduced_recoil_H4895.htm

Hodgdon's website lists a number of reduced recoil "youth" loads as examples.  All will keep the bullet inside 3" of the crosshairs out to 200 yards or more and were developed with white tail deer in mind.

Good luck

Lance

[parkergunshop]

With maximum loads the muzzle energy for the 168 grain and 140 grain bullet should be just about the same.  Which means that based on the laws of physics of equal reactions the opposite recoil in Foot Pounds at the butt would be very close to the same.   However the higher velocity of the 140 grain may make the recoil a little faster and sharper spread over less duriation.   

I always feel the kick more for higher velocity rounds than for slower ones even with equal muzzle energy.

[parkergunshop]

As a follow up, should have said to load the 140 grain to the same velocity as the 168 grain to reduce the recoil.

If you want less recoil you have to settle for less muzzle energy.

[LanceR]

However the higher velocity of the 140 grain may make the recoil a little faster and sharper spread over less duriation.   

Good food for thought.  The velocity with which the rifle pushes back matters.  Faster is obviously less desirable.  I looked at the recoil calculator I used for the above examples and there is not much to choose from with these bullets and velocities.  The 168 grain bullet at 2700 FPS recoils at 12.6 FPS and the 140 grain bullet at 2900 FPS recoils at 12.2 FPS.  Both are with an 8 pound rifle.  Lighter rifles will recoil harder and faster...

This is part of why I'm a fan of relatively heavy rifles and less than maximum loads.  The deer and bear don't seem to notice that my rifle is a little heavier than some or that my loads are fairly conservative but my shoulder and ears sure notice.

As far as the questions about the quantity of powder going up as the bullet gets lighter:  heavier bullets have more inertia to be overcome so for a given powder charge of a particular powder the bullet is slower to accelerate.  This means that at any given time after ignition the space for the burning powder to expand into is smaller and the pressure is higher.  That also means that the burn rate is sped up due to the increased pressure and that the pressure rises faster.  Note that "magnum" powders are generally much slower than "standard" powders.  That keeps the pressure level and it's rate of rise safer.

My old Sierra manual shows 59.7 grains of IMR 4350 as the max load for a .280 with a 100 grain bullet and 50.7 grains as the max charge for a 175 grain bullet.  That means that, for that powder and cartridge, you use 15% LESS powder for a max load with the heavier bullet....

Lance

[jabey9210]

I'm not sure about the weight of the rifle but it's a handi with a 26" barrel.  Using the 168's I am getting sub moa groups consistently and the gun is accurate out to 700 yrds would be better if i didn't have to use a truck and tow chain to pull the trigger.  Now I primarily put this gun together for her to use as a 500 yrd and less deer and 400 and less elk gun.  Because of the steep canyons and ungodly amount of pines where we hunt those ranges are not an uncommon shot.  Now she's not uncomfortable shooting the gun and is experienced enough to realize she'll never feel any recoil while hunting but when we go out shooting so she can practice on longer ranges she is only able to shoot a couple of times until the recoil starts bothering her and I want her to be able to practice making those longer shots so she is comfortable with the shot when the time comes.  I am just wondering if I'm barking up the wrong tree going with a lighter bullet vs going with a muzzle break or a mercury tube or something.  Because it is after all a handi and I really don't wanna put a ton of money into it if I don't have to.  She just loves the handi and I want her to be able to comfortably shoot it in a practice situation.

[Lloyd Smale]

how far is she shooting? if its under 200 yards try a 120 nos ballistic tip at about 2600 fps. I dont share loads anymore that arent in a book but its easy to achieve with 4895. My son killed his first couple deer with loads like that in a rem mountain rifle. It did the job just fine. Flat enough and powerful enough to take a deer out to 300 yards if you know what your doing.

[jabey9210]

That's my problem Lloyd where we hunt a 400 yard shot is not uncommon so I need the velocity and thump to reach out there a ways.  Where we hunt because of the steep canyons and the amount of pines there is no chance of getting closer so not always but most of the time we are forced to sling 500 yrds to get the buck we want and that's what I am trying to accomplish but I want her to be able to shoot it comfortably while practicing.

[LanceR]

A muzzle brake will significantly increase muzzle blast and the pressure to the sides and rear.  Any weight addition such as a mercury filled recoil attenuator will almost certainly adversely affect the rifle's balance. 

Range estimation and wind calling tend to be the two things that make shooting at long range a valuable training choice.  A 140 grain VLD at 2900 FPS at 500 yards has over 30" of drop and with a 10MPH wind has about 12" of windage...

You could use a technique some of us used to use for long range work when wanting to shoot softer loads for practice.

Get your long distance zero for your preferred hunting load and write it down.  Now load your reduce power practice loads and record any further adjustment changes you make on the scope.  When the season approaches put your hunting zero back on the scope and validate it downrange with a few shots.

One added advantage of using a slower bullet for practice is that you'll have to become even more proficient at calling the wind and estimating distance.  It will make you a better shooter with your hunting load.

Lance

[Val]

Have a look at the following recoil chart. It indicates there would be little difference in recoil:
http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm

[jabey9210]

thanks val.  I don't like that chart it shows the 140 recoil will actually be slightly more and that's not what I wanted to hear...lol

[Lloyd Smale]

I guess then i would do one of two things. If you really like the gun and dont want to part with it load up some 120 ballistic tips to about 2900-3000 fps and see if she can handle it. If not swap it for a 2506 and load 100s to those speeds. By the way i we do alot of long range shooting at deer while doing crop damage shooting. A 400 yard shot is a long poke and most people have no bussiness trying it. Id put some markers out at 300 and tell her not to shoot past them.

That's my problem Lloyd where we hunt a 400 yard shot is not uncommon so I need the velocity and thump to reach out there a ways.  Where we hunt because of the steep canyons and the amount of pines there is no chance of getting closer so not always but most of the time we are forced to sling 500 yrds to get the buck we want and that's what I am trying to accomplish but I want her to be able to shoot it comfortably while practicing.

[LanceR]

I think that Lloyd has got a good idea that is worth pursuing.  I just scrolled through the bullet library of the ballistic calculator I use and the Nosler 120 grain .284 Ballistic Tip seems to be the clear winner in .284 120 grain bullets in terms of flatter trajectory and downrange energy. 

At 2900 MV it will get to 500 yards with around 940 pounds of energy and have around 1130 pounds at 400 yards.  That is 15% or so more than any of the other 120s I checked.  At those distances the retained energy is more important than at shorter distances.

The recoil in an 8 pound rifle would be 14.4 pounds at 10.7 FPS.  That's a lot better than the 18.5 pounds of the 140s.

With a scope at 1.5" above the bore and a 6" mean point blank range (the bullet is no more than 3" above or below the line of sight) the MPBR is around 283 yards and with a 10 MPH side wind the ballistics would look something like this:

100 yards= 2.6" high,  0.8" windage
200 yards= 1.9" high,  3.3" windage
300 yards= 4.5" low   7.8" windage
400 yards= 17.7" low,  17.7" windage
500 yards= 39.1" low,  23.6" windage

That's about 4" more drop at 500 yards than the Berger 140 at 2900 FPS.

Lance

[parkergunshop]

I agree with Lloyd.     400 yards is too long for most marksman on a target range much less in hunting conditions.   I don't opt for shooting game that is going to run away wounded to die a lingering death.

Jabey you have to realize that you don't get something for nothing.   To reduce recoil you reduce the muzzle energy by using less powder to reduce the velocity and resulting muzzle energy and opposite reaction recoil.   Or you can switch to another round that  has less recoil.  But if you load the other round to the same muzzle energy the recoil will be just about the same.   But realize that the higher the muzzle velocity the sharper and faster  the recoil or kick at the recoil pad or butt plate.

[LanceR]

Gentlemen, I suggest that your assumptions that the lady can't shoot well at long range are somewhat too judgmental and are not justified based on the available information.  Jabey stated that she didn't like the heavier recoil while practicing.  He never wrote a word about her shooting abilities.

Lance

[roper]

That's my problem Lloyd where we hunt a 400 yard shot is not uncommon so I need the velocity and thump to reach out there a ways.  Where we hunt because of the steep canyons and the amount of pines there is no chance of getting closer so not always but most of the time we are forced to sling 500 yrds to get the buck we want and that's what I am trying to accomplish but I want her to be able to shoot it comfortably while practicing.

Some areas I hunt above timberline 300yd be a close shot here in Co.  I put a muzzle brake on my wife rifle and they are removable so that takes care of the bench/hunting shooting.  My wife shoots a 280AI with 150gr TSX and I live appr 7700ft elevation and we have access to a 100/600yd range close by and the gun club I belong to has one range out to 1000yd.    I just picked up some 168gr VLD 7mm hunting bullets going to see how they shot in the 280AI be a good bullet.

Well good luck

[parkergunshop]

Lance,

Never said that the lady could not shoot well, made a general marksman statement which is true and I stand behind fully.  400 yard game shots are few and far between, unless you are like my cousin who killed five deer on the run with five shots LOL,  haven't seen the proof either.


Moreover,   I was on the competition rifle team in the Air Force and shot in National Benchrest Championship competition for several years and I don't personally feel comfortable taking 400 yard shots at game in the varying conditions encountered while hunting

I have lost track of how many deer I have killed, none were shot at over 300 yards and most were within 100 yards and none ran away to die in the brush.

[jabey9210]

Thanks Lance. For a hunting load the 168gr bergers will ring the 10" 700yrd plate all day so I have decided that will be my hunting load I just need something she can practice with that is able to accomplish longer ranges as she is only 5'0" tall and 125lbs and is not able to withstand the recoil most of us can.  As far as a 400 yard shot being too far for game well if you hunted where we hunted I hope you like two points cause that's all you'll end up with if you're not comfortable taking those shots. I'm not trying to offend anyone but my wife killed her a great deer last year at 485 yards one shot bang flop with my 7mm wsm shooting 180gr bergers at 2950fps with the break removed for hunting and said she felt nothing.  She is very experienced and comfortable shooting and is quite proficient at it.  Here is a pic of where we hunt at so you can get an idea of what I am talking about.  Believe me if we could get closer we would I would much rather take a 100yrd shot over a 500yrd shot any day but when you can't you can't and seems how we practice at these ranges all year long we don't loose any deer either in fact I honestly cannot think of any of us that have lost one it sometimes takes a while to find them because when they go down they usually end up down the mountain a 1,000 yards or so but we've never lost one. And I took the picture of the mountains right where her dear was laying dead so that kinda tells ya where the deer like to hang out in these parts.

[roper]

Thanks Lance. For a hunting load the 168gr bergers will ring the 10" 700yrd plate all day so I have decided that will be my hunting load I just need something she can practice with that is able to accomplish longer ranges as she is only 5'0" tall and 125lbs and is not able to withstand the recoil most of us can.  As far as a 400 yard shot being too far for game well if you hunted where we hunted I hope you like two points cause that's all you'll end up with if you're not comfortable taking those shots. I'm not trying to offend anyone but my wife killed her a great deer last year at 485 yards one shot bang flop with my 7mm wsm shooting 180gr bergers at 2950fps with the break removed for hunting and said she felt nothing.  She is very experienced and comfortable shooting and is quite proficient at it.  Here is a pic of where we hunt at so you can get an idea of what I am talking about.  Believe me if we could get closer we would I would much rather take a 100yrd shot over a 500yrd shot any day but when you can't you can't and seems how we practice at these ranges all year long we don't loose any deer either in fact I honestly cannot think of any of us that have lost one it sometimes takes a while to find them because when they go down they usually end up down the mountain a 1,000 yards or so but we've never lost one. And I took the picture of the mountains right where her dear was laying dead so that kinda tells ya where the deer like to hang out in these parts.

 

I got to ask this.  Your wife shooting a 7WSM with 180gr bullets and the brake is removed for hunting and you asking about recoil difference between Berger 140/168gr bullets in a 280 should you maybe put a brake on the rifle etc.  I find it strange your seeking advice when  you already set up a 7WSM for her how you manage to do that?

[jabey9210]

She only shot my 7mm wsm because the dear was out of range for her .243.  And the reason I'm trying to work up loads rather than go with a break is because it is a handi and I don't want to put a bunch of money into it when I could set up a better gun for cheaper I just can't convince her of that she loves that damn thing but seems how I'm already into it a $1,000 what's another 250 for a break?   Her being a woman though does not want a break and said I could put one on as a last resort.  I am just trying to keep her happy is all and don't know what to do outside of putting a break on it.  She is just proud of this gun because she has done all the work on it she picked out the stock she wanted and put it on and I supervised as she did a full length bedding on it and she picked out the scope next she wants to dura coat it so she is just partial to this gun I suppose.  And because as you can see in my previous pics the look on her face is priceless when she takes the animal she wants I just wanna make the gun do what she wants it to do.

[AtlLaw]

I am just trying to keep her happy is all...

Good husband

She is just proud of this gun because she has done all the work on it...

Good woman

You make a good pair!     I'll think of y'all whenever I shoot my 280 Handi!   

[jabey9210]

thanks atllaw I appreciate it

[Lloyd Smale]

you could do what i did for my wife and son when he was young. Id load a light load up for him to practice with and let them think there were sighting in the gun and a couple days before the hunt id take out there gun and actually sight it in with a hunting load. they never knew the differnce when shooting game. At least they never once complained about recoil.