Author Topic: Your Openion (Read 2504 times)

Casull · « **Reply #30 on:** May 01, 2011, 07:44:10 PM »

Quote

That's twice you've tried ridiculous analogies to justify arresting a kid for being a kid.

Dropping bowling balls off an overpass or firing a rifle into a crowd is in no way comparable to kids running on ice. While their is risk in running on ice, that risk IS TO YOU! Your two useless examples are RISKS TO OTHERS! If you can't understand the difference send me a PM and we can hash it out.

Now I'm sure you're thinking, "Oh boy, I've got him now! There was risk to others because he had to be rescued..." You're right, there is a slight risk everytime someone gets out of bed. But the risk is indirect and slight, and secondary to the action in question. You're two examples are recklessly endangering others, directly.

Keep trying... I'm sure if you work at it long enough you'll find a way to justify it, you're just not there yet...

Duk, I CAN understand the difference between creating risks to others and risking only oneself. But, obviously you can't understand the difference in "kind" as opposed to "degree". I was not arguing it was proper because he put himself in danger, but rather because he put OTHERS in danger. I was making the analogy to compare concepts, not quantitative equalities. And as far as "ridiculous analogies", you seem to have no problem with using them yourself, when you compare getting out of bed with sending a rescue crew out in on a frozen river. Hmmm, a little hypocracy there?

Casull · « **Reply #31 on:** May 01, 2011, 07:48:24 PM »

Sourdough, I agree that the matter could have probably been handled better. But, I wasn't there to hear what the judge heard, who found the young man guilty. And, again we are not talking about a felony conviction and jail time, but rather a misdemeanor and suspended sentence.

billy_56081 · « **Reply #32 on:** May 01, 2011, 08:07:40 PM »

Make em pay for the rescue. That's what they do when the stupid drive on closed roads in a snow storm.

bobg · « **Reply #33 on:** May 01, 2011, 11:11:32 PM »

I wonder who pays for the rescue or who gets arrested here when a dog or deer gets stranded on the ice on the Niagara River or Lake Erie and they bring in a helicoptor to rescue them?
As far as i am concerned those kids did nothing wrong.

Sourdough · « **Reply #34 on:** May 02, 2011, 03:08:43 AM »

Here is a copy of the Letter To The Editor, I sent to the paper. The bloggers are tearing this cop, the prosecutor, and the judge up on line over this. I think Mayor Cleworth will have a lot to say later this morning.

Don't call 911!

A dangerous precedence has been set here. The youth of Fairbanks has now been taught the police are not your friend like they say they are in school. If you have an emergency and you call 911 for help, someone is going to jail. Now how many of our young people are going to be hurt or die trying to make the rescue themselves. Cause if they call for help someone will go to jail.

But I guess it makes this cop look good, it adds to his stats, another arrest, good for his resume. I have a hard time believing the Prosecutor pushed this, OH Yea, is looks good on their stats too, another case they prosecuted. As for the Judge why did the judge simply not dismiss the charge and send the young man home.

Remember kids hang in there, those guys downriver that rescue all those snowmobiles can throw you a rope as you drift by.

The AP got hold of this and it is going out over the national news. Not looking good for Fairbanks Police.

Shu · « **Reply #35 on:** May 02, 2011, 03:15:24 AM »

Definitely heavy handed. A good butt chewing was all that was needed. I think paying for the rescue is a bit extreme also. There was no laws really that were broken. This is just the system trying to keep kids from being kids. Yes the rescue workers had to go out and get him, thats what tax dollars are for.

bikerbeans · « **Reply #36 on:** May 02, 2011, 03:41:07 AM »

Sourdough,

Almost every year on the western end of Lake Erie there there will be rescues of ice fisherman who ignore the warnings given them by mother nature, high winds and elevated temperatures. A large section or sections of ice will break off and off these fishermen go drifting to Canada or Buffalo, NY. The USCG and private rescue air boats will then head out in droves to pickup these poor "victims". They never arrest these folks and many have had this happen several times. At least the USCG will not rescue their snowsleds, they end up having to pay the private companies to get them with an airboat.

I think Sheriff Taylor, Barney and your local court system are way out of line with these kids. Hopefully, your meeting and maybe the next election cycle will show them the error of their way.

BB

no guns here · « **Reply #37 on:** May 02, 2011, 03:41:21 AM »

It's a crock of crap... total BS. If you go hunting and need to be rescued, do you get arrested for it? If you go snowmobiling and get stuck and have to be rescued do you get arrested? If your house catches on fire because you were doing something silly, do you get arrested? In each case, you may have put the rescuers at risk but you don't get arrested. Heck, even flying to pickup a stranded hunter up there could be dangerous and deadly. This is stupid crap. Bill him for the hours of the cops if you must but NOW he has a record for absolutely no good reason. Stupidity reigns even in Alaska...

NGH

magooch · « **Reply #38 on:** May 02, 2011, 04:25:08 AM »

I was thinking along the lines of what William said. The cops probably would have been justified in shooting the punk.

What the hell has happened to the poopulation of Alaska? Unless there were facts left out of the story, over reaction on the part of the authorities is an understatement. People do unwise things everyday and it used to be called freedom; freedom to live and do things without having to conform to authoritarian concepts. Sometimes the line between being free and being in violation of a real and necessary law is very fine. The case in question doesn't even come close.

If the story was essentially all the facts, then everyone would have been best served if the youth had been given a hug and told to please be careful. That should have been the extent of it.

Roger, I think you and your fellows are justified in letting the mayor and others know that they are public servants and not public persecuters.

crab cake · « **Reply #39 on:** May 02, 2011, 04:29:57 AM »

Which kid was yours?

OldSchoolRanger · « **Reply #40 on:** May 02, 2011, 05:06:42 AM »

In my experience; when ever a "young adult" is arrested for a crime (violation of a law), the parents usually say:

1) My son is a good boy, he's just hanging out with the wrong crowd, and they influenced him.
2) They made him do it. He wouldn't have done it on his own.
3) He might have got in trouble in the past, but he was trying to get his life straighten out.
4) The law is stupid, (because my son was arrested).
5) He's just a boy, boys do stupid things, that what boys do(usually said in reference to a person over the age of 18).

Think about it. If a law is on the books, it should be enforced. If it's a bad law, repeal it. Passing a law, and then ignoring it makes no sense, and just leads to a blatant disrespect for the law. True the LEO might have handled the incident differently, but he didn't, he chose to enforce the law. Legally he did his job, could he have handled it differently? I personally think he could have, but I wasn't there, so I have to believe he did what he thought was right.

Casull is not agreeing with the LEO's actions, he is just pointing out the facts of the case as it happened. He is also pointing out the facts of the case as stated, and the way the law is interpreted. I usually don't agree with defense attorneys since they were always the "enemy", but you have to respect them for doing their jobs.

Shu, no guns here; Even Sourdough said: "Yes the city needs to be reimbursed for the rescue, OK bill the young man. He is 18, he is responsible for paying it. "

Sourdough don't attack the LEO personally. LEO's get it from both sides on a daily basis.

MGMorden · « **Reply #41 on:** May 02, 2011, 08:02:29 AM »

Quote from: yellowtail3 on May 01, 2011, 06:19:06 PM

I'm thinking I don't even like the 'charge 'em for the rescue' idea. I mean, we've got tax-payer capability in place... are citizens charged whenever those capabilities are used?

I agree. By the time we've instituted tax payer funded services like these, it's come to a point where we've recognized that privately funded sources are not sufficient. We pay taxes for the police, fire department, and other emergency services. Adding a bill on top of that is stupid, and if we're going to do that then it's stupid to even have them government controlled in the first place. Not to mention that a lot of times people like this have no choice. If I knew I was going to be billed for it they had better not dispatch on anything other than my own word - not a bystander calling 911. I'd need to weigh the possibility of me getting out of this myself if the police are running a meter.

So yep, I definitely think they overreacted. Lately though it's getting to be were it's a criminal offense to inconvenience police/rescue and make them actually DO something rather than drive/sit around though.

Flynmoose · « **Reply #42 on:** May 02, 2011, 08:14:59 AM »

I would think that the Firemen would welcome a river rescue, with a successful ending, as necessary to maintain the level of preparedness the public expects. I would assume that they have regular drills to keep sharp. I can imagine the uproar if they weren't able to bring him in safely.
FM

OldSchoolRanger · « **Reply #43 on:** May 02, 2011, 08:23:06 AM »

Quote from: Flynmoose on May 02, 2011, 08:14:59 AM

I would think that the Firemen would welcome a river rescue, with a successful ending, as necessary to maintain the level of preparedness the public expects. I would assume that they have regular drills to keep sharp. I can imagine the uproar if they weren't able to bring him in safely.
FM

The firemen did. The problem would have occurred if anyone was killed or injured during the rescue.

MGMorden · « **Reply #44 on:** May 02, 2011, 08:28:39 AM »

Quote from: OldSchoolRanger on May 02, 2011, 08:23:06 AM

The firemen did. The problem would have occurred if anyone was killed or injured during the rescue.

That about like a lifeguard complaining that he might get sunburned though: it's part of the job. If your JOB - the thing you get paid everyday to do - involves anything to do with "Search and Rescue" then the reality is you're going to be subjected to some dangerous stuff every now and then. I don't mean to sound ungrateful, because I appreciate their efforts, but realistically if you're not comfortable with putting yourself in harms way to get the job done, then you should seek employment elsewhere.

It's as if they get mad if anyone has the audacity to require that they actually DO what they're paid to do.

OldSchoolRanger · « **Reply #45 on:** May 02, 2011, 08:32:22 AM »

That's not what I was inferring to. From what I read in the post there is a law in Alaska that makes it a crime to endanger 1st responders, through "reckless actions". That's what the discussion was about, the law, and the enforcement of it.

OldSchoolRanger · « **Reply #46 on:** May 02, 2011, 08:34:25 AM »

Quote from: MGMorden on May 02, 2011, 08:28:39 AM

Quote from: OldSchoolRanger on May 02, 2011, 08:23:06 AM
The firemen did. The problem would have occurred if anyone was killed or injured during the rescue.

That about like a lifeguard complaining that he might get sunburned though: it's part of the job. If your JOB - the thing you get paid everyday to do - involves anything to do with "Search and Rescue" then the reality is you're going to be subjected to some dangerous stuff every now and then. I don't mean to sound ungrateful, because I appreciate their efforts, but realistically if you're not comfortable with putting yourself in harms way to get the job done, then you should seek employment elsewhere.

It's as if they get mad if anyone has the audacity to require that they actually DO what they're paid to do.

And you are absolutely correct, when you say: if you're not comfortable with putting yourself in harms way to get the job done, then you should seek employment elsewhere.

Casull · « **Reply #47 on:** May 02, 2011, 08:37:37 AM »

Save your breath Oldschoolranger. Rather than gripe about a law that they think is unfair or overly broad, they'd rather attack those that enforced it (you know, doing their job).

Casull · « **Reply #48 on:** May 02, 2011, 08:39:38 AM »

Quote

That about like a lifeguard complaining that he might get sunburned though: it's part of the job.

Talk about a ridiculous analogy. Where's old Duk on this one.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #49 on:** May 02, 2011, 08:40:22 AM »

If there was an ordance making it illegal to be on the ice then he got what he deserved .
You can't fix stupid but you can make it worth while not to do stupid things.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #50 on:** May 02, 2011, 08:42:18 AM »

So being a fireman is being a baby sitter now ? I for one don't feel like I should pay to save idoits . If a few spend some time in the pokey so be it.

Sourdough · « **Reply #51 on:** May 02, 2011, 10:18:32 AM »

Rescuing people off the ice is a common occurrence here in Fairbanks. They are usually on snow mobiles or just out walking. This is the first time that I am aware of anyone being arrested. I've lived here over 40 years. We have a couple of new LEOs and in my openion they are the ones out of control.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #52 on:** May 02, 2011, 10:23:28 AM »

I understand your thought but I for one would not care to pay for kids playing stupid. If there was good reason to be on the ice for work or travel so be it but to act silly NO. We have a river where folks fish and play . There are safety rules in place like water levels that are safe etc. Those who don't follow the rules get to pay to be saved. I do agree 10 days may be stiff but I don't know details such as how they acted toward police etc.
Hey will it be on the TV show AK State troopers ?

If so we can watch it and get bact to ya.

Casull · « **Reply #53 on:** May 02, 2011, 10:30:15 AM »

Shootall, he didn't do any time. The 10 day sentence was suspended.

slim rem 7 · « **Reply #54 on:** May 02, 2011, 12:38:35 PM »

sourdough lives there so id go with his opinion..now if the kid was intoxicated ,i might think differently..

Shu · « **Reply #55 on:** May 02, 2011, 01:21:13 PM »

Oldschool Ranger,
Sir I have to respectfully disagree about the 18 year old paying for the rescue. Tax dollars pay for those things.
This was just kids being bone headed and let the first one of us who hasn't done anything bone headed stand up.
The kid from what I read in another news article was terrified of being hualed in. A good butt chewing was probably more warranted. Yes he could get a lawyer and fight this. How many tax dollars would be wasted then?
I am betting this kid won't be a community problem anyway. Sourdough stated in his posts ice rescues were a common thing, this is just a great opportunity for some training.

I am very pro police and emergency services also.

Spirithawk · « **Reply #56 on:** May 02, 2011, 01:37:25 PM »

Quote from: bobg on May 01, 2011, 11:11:32 PM

I wonder who pays for the rescue or who gets arrested here when a dog or deer gets stranded on the ice on the Niagara River or Lake Erie and they bring in a helicoptor to rescue them?
As far as i am concerned those kids did nothing wrong.

Can't see a differance there? The kids are suppose to have brains superior to that of an animal! They did something stupid and got in trouble because they weren't using said brains. The kid should have been made an example of in hopes it might discourage others from doing the same. I think some kind of public service would have been enough though, along with a fine to help pay for the cost of his rescue. Why the fine? Because nothing gets a point across like a dented wallet! Sorry but it's a pet peave when people deliberately risk their lives and then exspect others to risk theirs in order to save their sorry butts! If people had to pay for their own mistakes they just might not make so dang many!

Sourdough · « **Reply #57 on:** May 02, 2011, 03:11:12 PM »

I'll repeat this, at no time do I think any lives were in danger. If they fell in all they had to do was stand up. The Chena is not that deep in that area, only waist deep at the most. The kid in a later article today said he could have stepped in and wadded out. If he had of knowen he would have been arrested and spend the night in jail he would have gladly wadded out. No one thought it was a big deal till the Cops arrested him. The police even said they were not going to arrest him while he was out on the ice. They lied just so they could get their hands on him so he would not jump in and wade out on the other side of the river.

Again the police were out of line, big time.

dukkillr · « **Reply #58 on:** May 02, 2011, 04:00:45 PM »

Police lie!??!?!? What kind of crazy talk is that? They are there to protect and serve... repeat after me, protect and serve...

In this case they are protecting the public from reckless ice riding... and they are serving the community by giving it's young people the benefit of a criminal record. Thank god they were there...

Spirithawk · « **Reply #59 on:** May 02, 2011, 04:08:35 PM »

Quote from: Sourdough on May 02, 2011, 03:11:12 PM

I'll repeat this, at no time do I think any lives were in danger. If they fell in all they had to do was stand up. The Chena is not that deep in that area, only waist deep at the most. The kid in a later article today said he could have stepped in and wadded out. If he had of knowen he would have been arrested and spend the night in jail he would have gladly wadded out. No one thought it was a big deal till the Cops arrested him. The police even said they were not going to arrest him while he was out on the ice. They lied just so they could get their hands on him so he would not jump in and wade out on the other side of the river.

Again the police were out of line, big time.

I understand what you're saying but what if some smaller kids saw them and decided it was a cool thing to do? The outcome might have been tragic. The cops probably over reacted but the kid did need to understand it wasn't something he should have done and often just telling someone so doesn't sink in.