Author Topic: Fairbanks police don't know how to unload pistol (Read 1384 times)

Sourdough · « **on:** May 01, 2011, 08:32:27 AM »

Everyone in my family has a concealed carry permit and we all carry. I carry a Ruger P-85, my wife carries a S&W 357, and our son carries a 1911 .45 auto. My son was driving to the University to work out last Saturday when another driver challenged him to a race. My son did not take the bait, but the police stopped him anyway. First thing that happened when the police officer walked up to the car was my son handed the officer his licensee and his concealed carry permit. That's where the whole thing fell apart.

Officer yelled "Hands on the wheel". "Where is the gun". My son answered "It's under my left arm in a shoulder holster". Officer reached under his arm, pulled the gun out and into the light. First thing the officer seen was the hammer back in the "cocked and locked" position, and he panicked. The officer was holding the pistol out by two fingers and seemed afraid to touch it. The officer called for back up.

Backup arrived. First thing back up did was take the pistol from the first officer, he asked my son why was the guns hammer back. My son tried to explain, "It's cocked and locked, that's how you carry a 1911". The second officer did not know what to do with it so he called for backup. Third officer on the scene, knew how to unload the gun, and diffused the situation.

My son is going back to carrying the old H&R .38 Defender. It's a revolver. While it's also a bit too complex for the police to operate, they should not panic since the hammer won't be back.

The Hermit · « **Reply #1 on:** May 01, 2011, 08:55:05 AM »

The last time I was in a road block, I informed the trooper that I was carrying and had a valid permit. I kept both hands on the steering wheel. He said let me see your permit, after asking me where the pistol was. His comment was "my gawd, you had this since 1956, how the heck old are you?"

I wonder what the response would have been if I had been 20 something. Sounds like you need to educate your police up there, sourdough.

The Hermit

yellowtail3 · « **Reply #2 on:** May 01, 2011, 09:26:14 AM »

Quote from: Sourdough on May 01, 2011, 08:32:27 AM

Officer reached under his arm, pulled the gun out and into the light. First thing the officer seen was the hammer back in the "cocked and locked" position, and he panicked. The officer was holding the pistol out by two fingers and seemed afraid to touch it. The officer called for back up.

Seems to me that if not arresting, Officer Incompetent had no business taking a citizen's weapon from him.

Some folk think that only the police r smrt enuf to cary gunz.

Mohawk · « **Reply #3 on:** May 01, 2011, 09:45:46 AM »

Police are gun experts? I have had " Experienced" shooters almost blow my head off because they didn't know that a Thompson and other machine guns were open bolt guns. Bolts are open that must mean safe mode...... LOL. These firearm "masters" knew 1 percent of what they thought they know. Personally, I would like cops to have other skills other than handguns ore firearms. That does little to solving a crime. Patrol are taught detecting possible crime as they did in this case. Not the firearm manual to different guns. That's what detectives are for.

FWiedner · « **Reply #4 on:** May 01, 2011, 09:49:31 AM »

I got pulled over because a cop thought that I didn't yield the right-of-way to him fast enough. Ice on the road. He came up on an entrance ramp pretty fast with his tinkle lights on and I was trying to keep from losing it on the ice so I changed lanes as fast as I felt safe doing it, but it was kinda gradual-like. He asked for my license and proof-of-insurance.

I keep my insurance card in the console glove box where I also I keep a Ruger LCP laying on top of the card. I informed him that "I have a firearm in my glove-box" so that he'd have a moment to compose himself when I opened the console and reached toward the gun for my insurance card.

I opened the console, he saw the gun, I picked up my card, he told me of his dissatifaction for my slow reflexes, I told him that I was sorry but was trying to drive safely, he said "Have a nice day", we went our separate ways and on with our lives.

Maybe it was the cops attitude toward people who carry, maybe he was distracted by the wanting to tell me off, maybe he didn't really even see the gun, I dunno.

Anyway, it was a non-event. I'm glad he didn't give me a ration, and I'm glad I live in Texas.

Shu · « **Reply #5 on:** May 01, 2011, 12:37:03 PM »

I would like to think the average street cop would know enough about guns to safely handle them. I know in the academy I went through they did but that was 30 years ago. I guess they teach how to be more PC these days.

Brett · « **Reply #6 on:** May 01, 2011, 05:54:29 PM »

I live out in the country. Country cops seem to be a little more gun savvy than their urban counterparts.

I got stopped not long ago because my registration sticker was about three months expired (My bad, thought I had remembered renewing it but realized later that it was my wife's I had renewed) Anyway, I handed the officer my drivers license and CCW. He asked if I had a weapon in the vehicle and where it was. With both hands on the steering wheel I informed him it was on my right hip. That's when it got a bit amusing. He started craning his neck this way and that trying to see my gun. After several long seconds of him twitching and jerking I reminded him that I do have a concealed weapons permit and the gun is under my shirt. He kind of went "Oh... well... ah... could you take your weapon out and hand it to me please." I said yes sir and slowly and carefully removed it with my thumb and index finger only and carefully handed it to him. As he placed his hand on it I told him to be careful, there's one in the pipe and it's a DA with no mechanical safeties. (Kel-Tec P-11 9mm) He thanked me and said he was going to hold onto it until the conclusion of the stop and that he hoped I was understanding. I said you do what makes you comfortable. He went back to the cruiser and ran a check on me I suppose and when he returned he handed me back my gun, my magazine and the loose round he had jacked out of the chamber. He then told me if I would get my registration cleared up by the end of the week he would forget he ever stopped me and thanked me for my cooperation.

I was not thrilled that he asked me to hand over my weapon since I am licensed to carry it but other than that and the few uncomfortable moments when he was trying to see my concealed gun I thought he conducted the stop very professionally. I don't know if the way I handled the whole CCW issue influenced him in not ticketing me or not but suspect it may have. Word is that the cops in that particular town are very unsympathetic toward motorist and issue tickets at the drop of a hat.

OldSchoolRanger · « **Reply #7 on:** May 01, 2011, 07:31:28 PM »

Unfortunately, most LEOs in major cities, are urban kids who have no background with firearms, other than what is taught to them in their academy. What is even more unfortunate is the fact that most cops in urban areas don't want to learn more about firearms, because of the prevailing liberal attitudes about firearms, thus the attitude they had when they stopped Sourdoughs son.
To make it even worse, any cop that is interested in learning more about firearms, is deemed a "buffie" or nicknamed "Tackleberry", by his fellow cops.
Most cops learn about how to shoot and handle their service weapons in the academy, and what is taught in most academies nowadays is just enough to pass the qualification course. My old agency cut back the yearly firearms qualification to the basic, once yearly required by state law, this was done to save money on ammo expenditures. And let's be honest, most cops that I worked with in my experience are too cheap to spend the extra money for additional range time and ammo.
Regarding the safeguarding of the firearm during a stop, you have to remember, that he is just acting in the interest of officer safety, his safety. This is a judgment call on his part, and I have no intention of criticizing his actions. Everyone has a different threshold on how to handle a gun stop.

BBF · « **Reply #8 on:** May 02, 2011, 05:14:33 AM »

Mohawk

Are you certain that a Thompson Sub is an open bolt system? I knew the Sten, and M-3 (Greasegun) among others are. I'm not old enough

to have personal experience with a Thompson.

sidewinder319 · « **Reply #9 on:** May 02, 2011, 05:33:18 AM »

The gun laws in Alaska require that you surrender your handgun to the police officer in any stop. The law is very clear. The officer takes the firearm and runs a check on the gun owner. Some state laws protect the gun owners rights. Wyoming comes to mind. In Wyoming you do not have to tell the LEO that you have a handgun. Gun owners in that state can have a loaded handgun on board with out any permits.

BBF · « **Reply #10 on:** May 02, 2011, 05:54:43 AM »

These different State to State laws make it a real adventure when you travel.

OldSchoolRanger · « **Reply #11 on:** May 02, 2011, 05:58:48 AM »

Quote from: scatterbrain on May 02, 2011, 05:14:33 AM

Mohawk
Are you certain that a Thompson Sub is an open bolt system? I knew the Sten, and M-3 (Greasegun) among others are. I'm not old enough to have personal experience with a Thompson.

The original system was a closed bolt system, it was modified to the open bolt system to allow quicker production during WWII. They still were using Greaseguns in VN when I got there, are you saying we're old?

MGMorden · « **Reply #12 on:** May 02, 2011, 08:36:25 AM »

Quote

Unfortunately, most LEOs in major cities, are urban kids who have no background with firearms, other than what is taught to them in their academy.

Pretty much this. Remember, a lot of the move towards Glocks were that they were "simple to operate". IE, a lot (not all mind you) of the cops just weren't familiar enough with guns to reliabily operate anything above "rack slide, pull trigger". A 1911 is a bit daunting if the only thing you've ever held is a Glock.

That said, it's naturally his decision, but if I were your son I wouldn't let a cop's incompetence with it deter me from carrying a 1911 if that's what I wanted to carry.

MGMorden · « **Reply #13 on:** May 02, 2011, 08:41:32 AM »

Quote

Gun owners in that state can have a loaded handgun on board with out any permits.

South Carolina is kinda like that. You're clear to carry in the glove box or center console - no permits needed and no need to inform the officer (though I wouldn't want to catch him by surprise, which is why before I had my CWL I always carried in the center console as my insurance/registration was in the glove box).

Anywhere else in the car however requires that it either be in a case and unloaded, or that you have a concealed carry permit. IIRC, when stopped by LEO in this state you're not REQUIRED to tell them that you're carrying via a CWL unless requested, but it is considered prudent to do so. Only time I've been stopped and the topic even came up my gun was in a case in the trunk. The officer was a shot target on my seat and inquired about it. He asked a few times kinda proding (I guess to make sure I didn't change my story), but after a several reassurances that the gun was in the trunk he accepted the answer without verifying it.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #14 on:** May 02, 2011, 09:22:43 AM »

I have been thru traffic stops twice where the officer ask where my gun was both times it was between my leg and seat. One cop ask why there ? I said it worked for me . The other officer said he carried one of his there in bad areas . Nither wanted to see it. Another time I placed it on the dash so the officer could see it , he ask why it was there ? I said so you could see it . He said OK put it away so I slid it under my leg. All three were nice about it. None seemed like it was a threat to them.

MGMorden · « **Reply #15 on:** May 02, 2011, 09:37:48 AM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on May 02, 2011, 09:22:43 AM

Another time I placed it on the dash so the officer could see it , he ask why it was there ? I said so you could see it .

Funny story: a guy I hunt with occasionally ran into some trouble with that. He was pulled over - he had a CWP and when stopping so that the cop could see it, he pulled out his gun and sat it on the seat. That was a no-no. In SC a gun has to be either glove box or center console. With a CWP it can be anywhere else in the vehicle, but just like when you're out and about - it HAS to be concealed. If it's out in the open it's considered open carrying which is illegal here. I don't think the cop actually did anything to him (it's been at least 10 years back since this happened), but he very sternly warned him not to do it again and made sure he knew that if he had wanted to he COULD have made an issue out of it.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #16 on:** May 02, 2011, 10:04:16 AM »

here open carry is ok except in a few cities in Va.

Mohawk · « **Reply #17 on:** May 02, 2011, 01:45:36 PM »

My favorite were the ex so called "special forces" dudes that did not know how to extend the shoulder extension on the MP5 and was unaware that a silencer of a MAC was screwed in and not pressed in. And yes, the enevitable, "Expert" handgunner who thought a 1911 was a double action and the same folks would ask where the hammer was on DAO so they could "cock it". That was pretty funny.

torpedoman · « **Reply #18 on:** May 02, 2011, 04:31:07 PM »

your lucky here in Spokane they have a bad habit of emptying them into citizens.

Pat/Rick · « **Reply #19 on:** May 02, 2011, 06:29:41 PM »

Torpedoman, we have a few WSP down here that are telling folks CCW's have to be on your person when in a vehicle. Maybe they should read the second 'instance" described in the R.C.W.'s.

Sadly alot of officers ( my friends call them the new guys, young kids, new breed, etc) that don't know anything of arms in general unless they were covered in the academy. One of my friends in King County sheriffs dept, was the last to give up his revolver. He always told the other guys to learn what a sight picture was and they shouldn't need more than a shot or two. I have been "kicked off" the range a time or two when the local sheriffs dept has shown up to qualify. I don't mind a bit, I know the undersheriff, we always talk and I show him what I'm shooting. If something unusual or unique, I let him "test drive it".

srussell · « **Reply #20 on:** May 02, 2011, 06:41:04 PM »

state trooper stopped me for a head light out. had my 1911 in a laying in my truck seat. he saw it and ask if i had a permit i said yes . her told me to get my head ;light fixed and left.

Pat/Rick · « **Reply #21 on:** May 02, 2011, 06:59:14 PM »

To give credit where its due, I think that most LEO's know that if a civilian has a CCW, they 're pretty much not flakes.

Sourdough · « **Reply #22 on:** May 02, 2011, 08:01:11 PM »

Pat/Rick, We were told when we took our classes for our concealed carry permits, that when we gave the permit to the police officer we were telling him we are good guys. But the local Law Enforcement officials here are taking it to say we are a bunch of flakes and we need to be restrained and disarmed while they are in contact with us. They are also using it as an excuse to do a real close inspection of the inside of our vehicles when they open the door and place the disassembled gun on the passenger seat.

Today on the local radio call in show, many of the callers likened the Fairbanks police actions to Gestapo Tactics. While I have always been a surporter of the Police in the past. Today I am one of the people that feel they are using heavy handed tactics, and are going too far.

This weekend I drove my son's car into town. It's 18 miles from North Pole into Fairbanks, then another 8 miles to the University Campus. As I drove up the entrance ramp onto the Richardson Highway I passed a State Trooper sitting there watching for speeders. As I passed him I saw his right hand up on his left shoulder, that told me he was using his radio. As I crossed an overpass one mile down the road, there on my side sat a North Pole Police officer, facing me. He was hidden from view till I was right on top of him. I had the cruise control set for 53mph in the 55mph zone. As I approached the police car he suddenly accelerated, spun the car around making a u-turn, and pulled out in front of me. He drove two miles down the highway and turned off. Six miles down the highway, as I crossed another overpass there sat a third police car, on my side facing me. Again I had the cruise set at 53mph. As I approached, this police car also suddenly spun the car around, pulling out onto the highway in front of me. This car went two miles down the highway and turned off. One and a half miles down the highway, as I went around a bend in the road there sat a forth police car. Again facing oncoming traffic. When I put my turn signal on that I was leaving the highway, this car also made a u-turn and pulled out in front of me. He made the turn onto the Mitchel Expressway in front of me. This car pulled over after we got onto the Mitchel and slowed down so I would pass him. He then followed me the next eight miles to the University Campus. When I parked, this officer pulled up right behind the car, stopped, and rolled his window down. I got out and turned to face him, he looked at me and took off. Guess he was not expecting an old fat man with a white beard. Now tell me they are not targeting my son's car. I'm driving the Eclipse for the rest of the summer, while my son is out of state.

BBF · « **Reply #23 on:** May 03, 2011, 03:14:20 AM »

Quote from: OldSchoolRanger on May 02, 2011, 05:58:48 AM

Quote from: scatterbrain on May 02, 2011, 05:14:33 AM
Mohawk
................
............ They still were using Greaseguns in VN when I got there, are you saying we're old?
[/quote

Long in the tooth for sure.I wasn't aware of the modification, It would make a simpler gun. I got out of the Service when US soldiers were there as Adivisors only.

Pat/Rick · « **Reply #24 on:** May 03, 2011, 08:52:40 AM »

Sourdough, for a fact the LEO's target certain styles of vehicles, Was told that by LEO friends. That and when a group of cars are exceeding the limit as a group, they will pick and choose their "target" (can we say that after AZ ?) to pull over. A fact that sports cars, and red, brings attention.

We do not have to disclose CCW to LEO here in Washington state.But are required to is asked. But I will do so as a courtesy sometimes. Just depends on how I feel at the time. And circumstances, I don't speed much, so if I get pulled over it will more than likely be for a burned out tail light or similar. I usually disclose if late at night, and let the LEO's know that I will comply with their instructions. Giving up? Not really, our LEO's still have a hard job to do, and meeting a "friendly" in the middle of the night makes things go better. I've never been searched. I do wonder how the premise for probable cause search is derived at by just having a CCW?? Just the view from my window is all.

scatterB. the US Army was still using M-3's into the 70's in europe to arm some tank (M-60's)crewmen that I know of with did see, info. I don't know if they used them beyond the 70's though. Simple arms for sure. Also my brother said that they had thompsons on their sub to use for boarding parties, he was in from 71-75 USS Drum SSN677, sturgeon class.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #25 on:** May 03, 2011, 09:26:28 AM »

All I can say is look around where and with whom you work, LEO's suffer the same . Some are good some are not . Some are smart some are not .

Old Fart · « **Reply #26 on:** May 03, 2011, 09:29:50 AM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on May 03, 2011, 09:26:28 AM

Some are good some are not . Some are smart some are not .

A whole lot of truth right there.

Mohawk · « **Reply #27 on:** May 03, 2011, 01:08:55 PM »

It is the same with any profession. And then you have the public two prong comments such as "the cop is too easy on gang bangers" or " That cop is too strict on people", etc. Two things always ring true. #1. People hate being told what to do, by anyone, regardless if its a lawful order or not. #2. People rarely support the law when its not in their favor. Yes there are bad cops, but are bad folks in any profession.

williamlayton · « **Reply #28 on:** May 03, 2011, 01:57:50 PM »

I have been, er, UH, wellnow, stopped by the boys in a few states. I treat each the same--hands on the wheel til he get to the window & then I get my DL & CCW to him--let him ask for the insurance--so he does not think i am making a move. i tell him wher I am going to reach.
Only one state asked me where th gun was, TEXAS. One state asked me what i was giving him my CCW for and the others just went on with business.
The Texas boy was a young DPS officer, He came off a ramp with his lights on and I thought he was going to rear end me when I pulled off the road to stop and he slid on gravel.
So far these have been comical.
I got stopped in Montana by an old boy because I came to a stop at a yield sign sign---it was about 5AM.
Nowhere to pull off the feeder so I pulled into a commercial lot and stopped.
He came a-creeping along side of the car--hand on weapon. I stuck both hands out the window. He said I stopped you because you looked confused---you been drinking?
NO SIR but I am confused and turned around---I need to go the other way and get my wife at the motel--we are headed to Glacier.
He looked at the stuff and ran it. When he got back to the car he gave me detailed info on how to get across the FWY--thanked me for co-operating and went on his way.
The female State Trooper is the funniest story. I have told it before--it is a jewel.
Blessings

Chilachuck · « **Reply #29 on:** May 03, 2011, 05:06:13 PM »

Sourdough, report the behavior to the Chief, city council, or mayor. It sounds like they have a bunch of rookies up there. The behavior you describe is simple harassment.

I think some cities are "entry level positions" for police, they hire rookies because they are cheap, and the rookies either get fired or go to another city at higher pay.