Sweets 7.62

[b. hall]

A friend bought an older used Sako 22-250 at a gunshow. He asked me to reload some ammo for him. Accuracy was poor with the factory ammo he had tried. My handloads were an improvement with the c.o.l. of a 50 gr. v-max lengthened as much as possible. It still was not as accurate as I thought it should be. I attempted to clean with outers foul out III. A lot of copper was removed but could never get the light on the foul out III to say it was clean. I gave the gun back to him. He has brought the gun back to me for another cleaning. I expect this to be somewhere between 50 to 75 rounds. I am trying the cleaning method described in the book the accurate varmit rifle by Boyd Mace where you remove powder fouling with Shooters Choice and copper fouling with Sweets 7.62. This is the first time I've used Sweets 7.62. I'm running 3 patches wet with Sweets through the bore, waiting 5-10 mins. and the running dry patches through the bore. I've done this numerous times. Patches are still bright blue. Do I continue with the Sweets? Is the barrel this badly fouled?

[savageT]

b. hall,
Question, are you using a bronze jag or brush to run the Sweets soaked patches through the bore?  If you have a nylon bore brush or plastic jag it would be better for copper treatment.  Perhaps if this is not the problem, you should start using household ammonia on the patches to loosen up the copper....however, DONOT leave it in the bore .....rinse with clear water and use Hoppe's #9 after you rinse....followed up with a good oil.

Jim

[Lone Star]

Since the FoulOut didn't remove all the jacket material either, it appears that you need to continue the use of the Sweets.  Depending on the amount of metal left in the barrel, that existing fouling can cause a rapid increase in additional fouling, more than what would be seen on a perfectly clean barrel.  By not removing all the fouling, the problem just can't get better.

Used rifles are sold for a reason....sometimes to raise money for a new gun, sometimes because the rifle doesn't perform.  My guess is that the original owner knew nothing about cleaning his rifle and so loaded the bore with jacket fouling that it would not shoot accurately.  You just have not done a complete job yet.  On some badly fouled bores I 've delt with, I've had to spend lots of time and lots of applications of Sweets to get clean patches back.  As recommended, do not use brass or bronze cleaning jags or brushes when applying the Sweets.   :roll:

[gunnut69]

You can use bronze brushes when using sweets, just remember they will be damaged by the Sweets.  I use bronze brushes to accelerate the copper removal process if the bores in really bad shape.  The FoulOut is the last tool I use in cleaning out fouling.  A bit of mechanical agitation(brushing) will help a bunch.  Just keep at it..  While your at it pray the bore hasn't rusted beneath the copper...

[Lone Star]

You can use bronze brushes when using sweets, just remember they will be damaged by the Sweets.

Yes you can use them, but the issue discussed was the copper residue left in the bore by the brush, which shows up as blue on the patch confusing the shooter as to when the bore is clean.  Actually, I now prefer to use JB Paste first to mechanically remove as much fouling as possible before going to the ammonium-based solvents.  The JB won't damage the bore if used according to directions, and it removes some layers of powder fouling which can cover and "protect" the layers of copper.

[gunnut69]

Sweets also removes powder fouling and used with a brush will rapidly remove both the powder fouling and copper fouling.  The problem with the FoulOut cleaners is that they don't work well through powder fouling.  So one has to stop, empty the solution from the bore and clear the powder fouling before the FoulOut can go back to work.  After brushing a couple of wet patches will remove any 'blue' left in the bore and you can begin again.  JB is a good solution but I've found it slower than Sweets.  When a barrel is this fouled it simply takes time.  I would be very cautious using household ammonia in a barrel..  Also a notye is in order.  Since ammonia is used as a degreaser we may be assured there is little or no lube left in the barrel.  Also moisture is going to be left behind in the nooks and crannies.  If this bore is not cleaned it will most assuredly rust.  Beneath the copper fouling.  That I believe is the real danger with ammonia based solvents, they should be used to completion, clean bore, to avoid rusting problems.  When I've cleaned the bore as well as is possible with Sweets I resort to the FoulOut...  then a bit of JB to polish..  And never let it get that bad again!!  Good luck!!  from the gunnut69

[b. hall]

I am using the Dewey 1 piece coated rod and the jag and adapter that came with it. I think it is made of brass. Is this o.k. to use?

[gunnut69]

Any copper that comes in contact with the sweets will be attached.  The 'blue' is the copper compound generated by the ammonia's action against the copper, either in the jacket metal fouling or the implements used to handle the patch.  Check where the blue is.  If on the outside of the patch then one might assume jacket metal fouling.  If on the inside of the patch, the jag is being eaten away.  My experience tells me the jacket fouling is musch more suseptable and will be removed long before the jag is totaled.  Plastic jags can be used but as a rule are pretty flimsy.  I've never seen anything that I'd use in a bore other than brass.  Never use stainless steel brushes as I believe the are much too aggresive.  I prefer 1 piece stainless steel rods.  As the most mobile of the cleaning system parts they are the least likely to embed any grit and wear the bores interior.  I know, I know, the coated rods are not supposed to embed but stainless WON'T.  When lapping a metal part the abrasive is embedded in a SOFTER material which is then rubbed against the harder material and the embedded abbrasive can attach the harder material, with the softer acting as a carrier.  As an example see the diamond steels used to sharpen the very hard material used in a knife blade.  The diamond material is embedded in nickle usually.  A soft material used to hold the diamond to the core.  A polished stainless rod is almost impossible to embed as the bore is softer than the rod!!  The abrasive won't wear out my barrel.  With proper technique and a stainless 1 piece rod I use a brass spear point jag and occasionally a brass bristle brush.  Those with the brass wire have less chance of a wire end damaging the bore...they are most certainly not polished.  As to patches I use whatever.  The modern commercial patches are great but they are not appreciably better than something homemade.  As long as it fits properly and is used with proper equipment it'll be just fine.  When you've gotten to the point where there's little blue on the patch, clean a last time with a Hoppes time powder fouling cleaner and use the FoulOut.  It will root out the last of the metal fouling and leave a really clean bore..  It should be rinsed with Hoppes and protected with a good oil.  Either a light coat of ATF if the weapon is to be used in a short time, or a light grease such as RIG if it's to be stored long term..  Either should be removed before firing, with the oil being the easiest and the grease more difficult.  Always clean from the breach if possible and always no matter what use a guide to avoid contact between the bore and the rod.  One should use the heaviest rod(stiffest) possible to keep bowing to a minimum which will allow contact between the rod and the bore in the midpoint of the barrel.  
Good luck and just keep after it.  Jacket metal fouling(actually cupronickle fouling) can be a pain but leaving it in the bore invites pitting and a ruined barrel.  Be aware also that as bores age they tend to roughness and this contributes to quicker jacket metal fouling.  I've found the faast varmit calibers to have a poor track record.  They can be badly damaged by simply not cleaning and getting them too hot.  The rapid fire found in a dogtown for instance can lead to a burned up 22-250 pretty quickly.  Only a clean bore and a scope will tell the tale.. Good luck from the gunnut69