Author Topic: Osama Bin Laden  (Read 11585 times)

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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Osama Bin Laden
« Reply #60 on: August 10, 2011, 03:17:17 AM »
Viet Nam stories ? At the time we were in the country much was suspected to be false that was passed on by the military. Much of the body count etc. was questioned . When communication was restored after war and figures were compared along with releases imformation it was fornd most was true and in many cases news organizationd had been wrong and infact cost much anti war activity that was not well founded.
 
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Osama Bin Laden
« Reply #61 on: August 10, 2011, 03:59:22 AM »
Yes to a point that is exactly what I am saying . I feel the news org. passed along more half truths or opinion passing it as fact than the military or white house did.
 
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Osama Bin Laden
« Reply #62 on: August 10, 2011, 04:02:31 AM »
 But in time of war I don't expect any info that would help the enemy to be released . I also have no problem misleading the enemy . I think we get far more info than needed at times. I can't imagine the joy the arab world is celebrating over the chopper crash and we gave them the news .
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Offline suba

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Re: Osama Bin Laden
« Reply #63 on: August 10, 2011, 04:03:01 PM »
You're right TM. Don't ever let anyone convince you otherwise. Vietnam was one big lie starting with the Gulf of Tonkin . Body counts were lies.  Levels of captured weapons and caches were lies.  I was a 19 year old Marine in 1970. Spent most of my time in the triple canopy SW of the DMZ.  One day we were on a hill listening to Nixon over a radio proclaiming American forces are not in Laos, and they will never be in Laos.


Only one problem. We were in Laos.


I distrust our government on every level.

Offline us920669

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Re: Osama Bin Laden
« Reply #64 on: August 11, 2011, 04:34:40 AM »
Any government at war produces enough BS to fertilize the Sahara Desert - just comes with the territory - no different in both world wars, Korea, you name it.  That being said, Vietnam was a terrible idea.  We proposed to fight as many do-or-die communists as Asia could produce on a small strip of land along the coast.  Absolutely bound to fail under any possible scenario.


However, it is a fact that the top North Vietnamese general, Giap I think it was, said near the end of his life that the only think keeping them going was the knowledge that the American people were deeply divided.  Theoretically, we probably could have kept the south in business indefinitely if we had presented a more united front.  I don't think it would have been worth it, though.   

Offline suba

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Re: Osama Bin Laden
« Reply #65 on: August 11, 2011, 11:25:49 AM »


  I was going to say to shootall just ask any Viet Vet....I understand brother....what a hard way to learn the way of the world.....I'm so glad you're here to help send out alittle sanity and truth to cool the fires of hell....what a long strange trip its been...... :)
BTW,,,JFK said there was 2 governmnets here...he declared war on one of them......TM7


You're welcome brother.  JFK was right. We have two governments. Make no mistake about that. It's the invisible government that I do not trust. You're right again TM...what a long strange trip it's been.


Question : Where have all the brave men gone...
They have all died in war...

Offline us920669

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Re: Osama Bin Laden
« Reply #66 on: August 11, 2011, 01:28:20 PM »
You guys are probably talking about that film clip that's on the internet.  You know who JFK is addressing don't you - Big Media chieftains, a group with which he was very popular and comfortable.  He was not really that good on transparency - often resorted to secret and irregular methods.  Like most people my age, I liked JFK and still do, but projecting 70's political tensions back to the early 60's just doesn't work.  He gave us three more years of the Eisenhower Era.   

Offline us920669

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Re: Osama Bin Laden
« Reply #67 on: August 12, 2011, 05:48:35 AM »
So first quote is something Jack told Jackie?  Too bad he didn't name some names, that could go off in a lot of directions.  Second quote is from the address I mentioned, it's linked somewhere here on GB, I saw it a few months ago, thought it might have been yours.  Coming on the heels of the Bay of Pigs fiasco, it sounds like he is asking Big Media to help him fight the Cold War just as ruthlessly as the Soviets. None of this has much to do with OBL.  I will try to start a new discussion soon.

Offline us920669

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Re: Osama Bin Laden
« Reply #68 on: August 12, 2011, 06:26:34 AM »
So where did "plot to destroy freedom" come from?  On B of P, yeah, but he let himself be set up, approved it and them tried to micro-manage it.  Ike would never have approved it.


I've got a dedicated JFK page going under Political Discussions.

Offline us920669

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Re: Osama Bin Laden
« Reply #69 on: August 14, 2011, 01:52:27 PM »
Unless "lots of $$" is capable of warping time, no.  Bay of Pigs was a year and a half before the Missile Crisis.  I don't think the whole truth about about Bay of Pigs will ever be known, but from what I can recall, and I can't cite anything, the plan hit JFK's desk while he was very new on the job.  The idea of getting rid of Castro appealed to him greatly, but he felt US fingerprints could not be seen or it would lead to a blow-up in Berlin,and one great truth about the Cold War was that we could not allow a blow-up in Berlin.  CIA's plan called for a landing near Havana, where Castro was not very popular, in the hope that an indigenous uprising would occur.  Kennedy decided that the team should come ashore quietly and melt into the mountains to function as guerrillas.  CIA's alternative site was a rural area where Castro was very popular and where the LZ was impossible.  Yes, they set him up to teach him to keep his mitts off carefully prepared plans, but the point is, with something like this you either accept it or reject it - you don't sit there and try to re-draft it off the top of your head.  It's a shame they were playing so rough but these are the facts of life.  He was grossly inexperienced.  The biggest losers were those men on the beach.


I watched about 30 min of the film, will try to watch more tomorrow, but it is incredibly bad - represents the state of the inquiry in the late 60's.  Much more is known now.  Of course there was a cover-up, put in place before the assassination at the president's direction.  Robert Kennedy was in charge.  That's why the whole government swung behind it.  No one expected JFK to be the victim.  Set aside some time - lots of it - and read Ultimate Sacrifice.  Read it carefully, check the notes, then read it again.  I don't have time to explain it fully, and my carpel tunnel is acting up, but it is all perfectly clear.  They were preparing a big surprise for Mr. Castro - probably would have worked, but very dangerous.  They were flirting with World War III.  Some of the "contractors" saw a way to rid themselves of their biggest nightmare and took it.  Kennedy probably understood the risks, explaining his strangely-fatalistic remarks.  Read the book.  Just don't call he a Scotch-Irish/Copperhead.   

Offline us920669

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Re: Osama Bin Laden
« Reply #70 on: August 14, 2011, 05:11:06 PM »
Previous post was far too long but doesn't scratch the surface.  The surprise the Kennedys had in store for Castro was a "false flag" operation - it would look like the Russians had killed Castro.  It is possible Oswald was being groomed to take the fall - of course he would be quietly released by the new government, which we had all lined up.  The authors suggest this but are not sure.  Something they don't suggest but I saw right away is that Oswald may have been being groomed to take the fall for trying but failing to kill Kennedy.  That would have fit the plot like a hand in a glove, and provided an incredible opportunity for a real assassination.  There is much much more.

Offline us920669

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Re: Osama Bin Laden
« Reply #71 on: August 15, 2011, 04:28:43 AM »
TM7 - Kennedy certainly did clean house at CIA after Bay of Pigs.  Good riddance - so what?  Are you suggesting Bay of Pigs led to Missile Crisis, and that Missile Crisis was somehow our fault?  Russians became emboldened after Vienna Summit, where JFK himself recognized his performance was simply abysmal.


Missile Crisis looms large.  Just imagine, you're some poor slob in Cuba, guy takes over, promises you health care and education, instead suits you up to be a tripwire in a nuclear war with the most powerful nation on earth.  Brilliant.  Many senior military and government people failed to see the wisdom.  Castro was following the pattern of many other socialist thugs, forcing out competent sincere socialists and replacing them with personal cronies and sycophants, making it easy for us to plan for a new government.  The key was public relations.  If Cuban and world opinion had the Russians removing Castro, perfectly typical KGB behavior, we would have been home free.


Haven't cranked up the film yet.  Magic bullet theory is absurd, of course.  My church-going deer-hunting NRA republican father saw through it in first 24 to 48 hours.  Autopsy was performed under personal direction of Robert Kennedy - he was in the penthouse, not the basement, but his hand-picked men were in the room and in constant contact by phone.   

Offline us920669

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Re: Osama Bin Laden
« Reply #72 on: August 15, 2011, 06:35:51 AM »
May I suggest that rather than posting videos that look like they were made by the '60s Weathermen, you find out about this stuff.  A lot of information is out there. The book I recommended is excellent, although it is too long.  Maybe someone will tell the same story in 2 - 300 pages.  They were putting together a secret dirty trick that had the potential to cause the Mother of All Crises in Berlin.  This is where the coverups and contingencies came from, as well as the infrastructure for the assassination.  Dallas was a carbon copy of the tactical plan they had developed for Castro. 


I hope everyone understands, I am not suggesting the family had anything to do with his death, but they ran the coverup, which should tell you something.


   

Offline us920669

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Re: Osama Bin Laden
« Reply #73 on: August 15, 2011, 09:47:26 AM »
Friend, post what you want.  My comment was based on your comment  that you don't know about Bobby, and I have to say that if you find the video educational, there is quite a bit more you don't know.  What I saw - first half hour - has been public knowledge for about 40 years, spiced up with "people's music" and rhetorical questions. 


In my last 4 posts I have tried to lay out the basic premise of Ultimate Sacrifice.  It's not the only book and I'm sure they don't have all the answers, but I found it very compelling.  I was more interested in this many years ago and I don't have everything at my fingertips.  I have had a hunch - and that's all it is - that the Kennedys planned a phony assassination attempt to be laid at Castro's feet.  It even jeopardized the First Lady, one of the most popular females of all times.  JFK had every right to be mad as hell about it, along with most of humanity, and that would have given the Russian plenty of reasons to help Castro into his dirt nap, which was set for about a week later.  I don't know, it holds water for me.   

Offline us920669

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Re: Osama Bin Laden
« Reply #74 on: August 15, 2011, 12:34:52 PM »
Man, you are a case.  I'm getting tired playing the game, but I'll respond to the points.


I like books better than videos because you are not at the mercy of slick production values.  There are plenty of books out there, some better than others, and I've given you one I think is pretty good.


Yeah, I have a hunch, and I think I spelled it out pretty good.  If you don't believe it I'm not going to lose any sleep.  I chuckled over your line about a phony attempt on whom?  Well, if the bullet missed we'll never know who it not supposed to hit, will we.  Seriously, the attempt would obviously be on the president, although anyone shooting at that car hazarded the first lady.  That reminds me, the video seemed to imply that Conelly agreed to sit in the line of fire and get shot with a hi-power rifle so he could be filmed sitting in a hospital bed lying about it.  That's dedication!


I wouldn't call Castro a bit player in the Cold War.  He let the USSR turn his country into a forward missile platform.  That's pretty serious.  Beyond that, I think I'll get on with my life.  Good bye and good luck.
 


Offline rk4570

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Re: Osama Bin Laden
« Reply #75 on: September 21, 2011, 07:33:55 AM »
I have always felt that JFK was taken out so that LBJ could take the us into VietNam. That's what happened and we were there for 10 years and Big Business made a lot of $$$$. Just like today!
I spent a lot of money on Guns, Wild Horses & Wilder Women but I guess I just wasted all the rest!

Offline Casull

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Re: Osama Bin Laden
« Reply #76 on: September 21, 2011, 09:46:02 AM »
Quote
Some say he was last duly elected president....

 
ROFLMAO!  And "Some" say HE was NOT duly elected.
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Offline Casull

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Re: Osama Bin Laden
« Reply #77 on: September 21, 2011, 12:02:33 PM »
 
Quote
  Quote from: Casull on Today at 01:46:02 PM
Quote
Quote
Some say he was last duly elected president....

 
ROFLMAO!  And "Some" say HE was NOT duly elected.
  .
Riiiiight.. ::) .....like the ones that offed him...... ::)
 
 
 
 

  Just curious how you can claim someone like Reagan (who won by 2 historic landslides) was not "duly elected", while Kennedy (who squeeked by on what MANY have said were questionable votes in some areas) was "duly elected".   ::) 
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Offline Casull

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Re: Osama Bin Laden
« Reply #78 on: September 22, 2011, 05:50:45 AM »
 
 
Quote

Just curious how you can claim someone like Reagan (who won by 2 historic landslides) was not "duly elected", while Kennedy (who squeeked by on what MANY have said were questionable votes in some areas) was "duly elected".   

 
So, now do you understand or "recall" how Reagan came into the discussion?  If not, sorry, but I don't think I can explain it any more simply.     ::)
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Offline Bigeasy

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Re: Osama Bin Laden
« Reply #79 on: September 22, 2011, 02:13:51 PM »
What does the Kennedy assassination have to do with the original post - "Osama Bin Laden"?  Seems this thread went off on a tangent a long time ago..
 
Larry
Personal opinion is a good thing, and everyone is entitled to one.  The hard part is separating informed opinion from someone who is just blowing hot air....

Offline OldSchoolRanger

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Re: Osama Bin Laden
« Reply #80 on: September 23, 2011, 07:15:29 PM »
This is how I stand on the Muslims:We can't put a monument of the Ten Commandments out because it might offend someone.Every week in New York they block off streets so they can pray on their little blankets.WELL THAT F****NG OFFENDS ME!!!!!!!!!!!!! Somebody needs to run through there with a 5 ton truck................Sorry if it offends anyone but thats how I feel...........

What streets, neighborhood is this happening?  Where in NYC is this happening?  Not anywhere that I'm aware of.  I would appreciate you letting me know, so I can see this with my own eyes. 
"You are entitled to your own opinions, but you are not entitled to your own facts." - Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan

When you allow a lie to go unchallenged, it becomes the truth.

My quandary, I personally, don't think I have enough Handi's but, I know I have more Handi's than I really need or should have.

Offline OldSchoolRanger

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Re: Osama Bin Laden
« Reply #81 on: September 23, 2011, 07:21:26 PM »

These transport chinooks rarely go down, if ever...what's the chances of one going down and everybody killed and they happen to be said OBL assassination team..?  See Alex Jones ..infowars.com for alternate viewpoint.
 
..TM7
I see you are now an aviation expert :o on chinooks.  ::) BTW what other type of chinooks are there besides transport chinooks?  ::)
"You are entitled to your own opinions, but you are not entitled to your own facts." - Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan

When you allow a lie to go unchallenged, it becomes the truth.

My quandary, I personally, don't think I have enough Handi's but, I know I have more Handi's than I really need or should have.

Offline OldSchoolRanger

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Re: Osama Bin Laden
« Reply #82 on: September 23, 2011, 07:27:46 PM »
What does the Kennedy assassination have to do with the original post - "Osama Bin Laden"?  Seems this thread went off on a tangent a long time ago..
 
Larry
Bigeasy - Your right! And guess who was the person that brought up JFK?  ::)   He usually does that to sidetrack a thread.  ::) Nuff said!  :-X :-X
"You are entitled to your own opinions, but you are not entitled to your own facts." - Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan

When you allow a lie to go unchallenged, it becomes the truth.

My quandary, I personally, don't think I have enough Handi's but, I know I have more Handi's than I really need or should have.

Offline Casull

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Re: Osama Bin Laden
« Reply #83 on: September 24, 2011, 06:32:48 AM »
Quote
Yes,  Chinook heliocopters rarely go down....if ever

 
 
Unless you count the at least dozen or so that have gone down over the last 3 decades. 
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Offline billy_56081

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Re: Osama Bin Laden
« Reply #84 on: September 24, 2011, 08:53:40 AM »
Darn facts!
99% of all Lawyers give the other 1% a bad name. What I find hilarious about this is they are such an arrogant bunch, that they all think they are in the 1%.

Offline Lost Farmboy

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Re: Osama Bin Laden
« Reply #85 on: September 24, 2011, 09:22:48 AM »
Quote
Yes,  Chinook heliocopters rarely go down....if ever

 
 
Unless you count the at least dozen or so that have gone down over the last 3 decades.

 
Really a dozen or so in 30 years. Count them. It should be easy. Such a small number. In 30 years there is a huge difference between 10, 11, 12 and 13.
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Offline Casull

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Re: Osama Bin Laden
« Reply #86 on: September 24, 2011, 09:37:22 AM »
Lost Farmboy, they're not exactly Cessna's.  I would not call that insignificant.
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Offline Casull

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Re: Osama Bin Laden
« Reply #87 on: September 24, 2011, 10:18:34 AM »
Lost Farmboy, not trying to be a smart a**.  Finding the actual numbers is not that easy.  There were at least 6 "notable" crashes of US chinooks and at least 3 such crashes of UK chinooks during that period.  I don't believe these numbers include civilian versions, just military choppers.  There are a fair number of other countries using them also.  Now, this is not counting the nearly 200 that went down during the Vietnam War (granted they were an earlier design, but still Chinooks).  In any event, it is pretty clear that tm was wrong when he said they "rarely go down...if ever".  If you want to argue about that, then go ahead and add something.
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Offline -Shaggy-

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Re: Osama Bin Laden
« Reply #88 on: September 24, 2011, 01:21:05 PM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aviation_accidents_and_incidents_in_the_War_in_Afghanistan
 
This list has over 25 Chinooks crashing or being shot down just in Afghanistan in the last ten years.

Offline Casull

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Re: Osama Bin Laden
« Reply #89 on: September 24, 2011, 02:45:15 PM »
Thanks Shaggy. 
Aim small, miss small!!!