Author Topic: lever guns with handgun ammo (Read 2774 times)

jamaldog87 · « **on:** May 11, 2011, 07:49:36 AM »

I was at the gun range the other day and there was a man there using a marlin Model 1894 in 357mag. Well the thing would not feed half the ammo he was using and i have hear that lever gun in pistol calibers have feeding problems. Is this true? I also readied the same thing in American handgunner when they have a artlice on duel ammo rifles and handguns.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #1 on:** May 11, 2011, 10:37:41 AM »

some do some don't, want a good one get a mod 92 win or a clone of one. I had a marlin 357 that was ok if you worked slow. Had a 94 that wouldn't feed three rounds stright period.

Not the 10th Man · « **Reply #2 on:** May 11, 2011, 10:52:51 AM »

Like many things in the gun world, I personally believe your describing a minor issue that's been overstated to seem like much more than it is. All I can base this off of is my personal experience though.

Throughout most of my youth, I had a Marlin 1894 in .357. I shot the heck outta that gun- I guess I was a typical small town, country teenager- I used that rifle to kill anything that moved, and some things that didn't....often shooting them two or three times, just to ensure that they would not infact get any deader.

Also, typical of kids in the country, I didn't have thousands of rounds of the ammo of my choice hoarded. I shot any kind of .38 Special or .357 I could get my greedy hands on. Flea Markets, Hardware stores, raiding my fathers closet, any kind of cartridge I could beg, buy, borrow, or steal. That Marlin of mine shot them all without issue- never, ever a problem chambering them- even snake shot with the plastic capsules. The only time the gun failed on me was once, when I'd been adjusting the loading gate, and I had a cartridge jump past the gate. It was a minor pain that took a minute or two to repair- All in all, small cookies when we're talking about a rifle that was carried, used, and abused as much as that one was.

Later in life I had a Winchester 94 in .45 Colt. It was an exceptionally decent shooter. I didn't shoot it nearly as extensively as my Marlin, but I put a few hundred rounds of my own mixed reloads through it. round nose, hollow point, wadcutter, etc. Never a glitch, hitch, or a bobble.

I currently have a Puma Model 92 in .45 Colt. I've put several hundred through this one without a single problem. Same reloads as the forementioned Winchester, on top of the fact that I love to shoot plastic bullets out of it- It's basically like feeding the rifle empty brass, and it still digests them all just fine. I have tremendous confidence in this rifle.

I've heard that the Marlin .357's can be particularly finnicky- but overall, I truly believe that it's much-a-do 'bout nuthin'. It's not exactly a brand new and novel concept....It's infact a pretty old one, that wouldn't be around if there wasn't merit to it.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #3 on:** May 11, 2011, 11:17:15 AM »

NT 10 M, I really don't believe I over stated the problem. I believe the guns made in the last 15 years are not the quality they should be. I have friends with marlins , 32 H&R mag. $% Colt and 357 MAG. all are newer guns and all experince problems feeding and two with sights crooked and one that could not be adjusted down enough to get the gun on paper at 50 yards ( factory installed front sight problem. Winchester 94's in handgun cals I don't think I have seen many that didn't have feed problems and need work including parts replacement. I guess they are/were having labor or design problems.

Not the 10th Man · « **Reply #4 on:** May 11, 2011, 11:58:23 AM »

I apologize if I worded my response in such a way to insinuate that "you" in particular overstated your issues. Your experiences are no less valid than mine.

I do believe there to be a tendency however, especially on internet forums for people to hear a bad story or two, repeat it, pass it around, and before you know it the dozen bad guns that slipped past "Jim Bob's Gun Mfg" sounds more like twelve hundred. Kinda like playing "Telephone" in class when we were kids in grade school.

With the advent of cowboy action shooting, it wouldn't surprise me to hear that there's more lever action rifles failing, especially in pistol calibers- Primarily, because there's alot more of them being sold. Of course, with the wildfire popularity of Cowboy Action Shooting, maybe there has at times been more to slip past QC, in an effort for the manufacturers to keep up- The same as can be noted with black, battle type rifles when the Slime Bill first passed, and when Obama was elected.

My perception is this: sometimes manufacturers screw up- It's aggravating, but it's a part of life. BUT...that does not nullify the validity of an entire type of rifle. To say "pistol caliber lever actions jam" would typically infer Winchester, Uberti, Rossi, Marlin, Henry, Beretta, Model 92, 94, 66, 73, .357, 44-40, 44 Mag. .45 Colt, etc. I believe pistol caliber lever actions are a time proven concept, and if a manufacturer drops the ball, shame on them- but we shouldn't paint them all with the same broad brush when that occurs.

243dave · « **Reply #5 on:** May 11, 2011, 02:28:11 PM »

Well said.

Aught Six · « **Reply #6 on:** May 11, 2011, 04:15:47 PM »

My lever guns in pistol calibers feed round nose lead or hardball ammo great. They don't do so well on JHP stuff.

dpe.ahoy · « **Reply #7 on:** May 11, 2011, 05:52:02 PM »

The only time my 1894C fails to feed is when the loading gate screw has come loose. No problems with my Marlin 44 mag, Winny Trapper 45 Colt, two Puma 454 Casulls, Rossi 44 mag, and 2 of my 3 Rossi 357's. The trapper 357 will hang up on feeding certain bullet styles, smoothing the sharp top of the chamber and running a couple hundred rounds through it should have it feeding like a champ. It's only had a box or 2 run in it yet. Go on Marlin Owners.com and search "Marlin Jam". Yes there are cases of it, carrier gets a groove worn in it and fails to feed the cartridge properly, new carrier and problem is fixed or fix the cause of the problem before it happens. Just like anything else mechanical, Murphy's Law will happen from time to time. DP

yukondog · « **Reply #8 on:** May 11, 2011, 06:56:04 PM »

I have pistol cal. levers in 357,41,44 and 454, and to this day have had know problems with feeding with the exception of the 454 it's sensitive to O.A.L.

Lurker · « **Reply #9 on:** May 11, 2011, 06:59:30 PM »

It isn't something wrong with the later model firerarms, that is the problem. It is that now, the factorys spend less time on fitting the parts together, to insure smooth working assemblys...

Says me, that has eight pistol caliber Marlin rifles, that have actions that are as smooth as glass, when feeding their pistol rounds through them.

Bill

gr8ful · « **Reply #10 on:** May 11, 2011, 07:40:08 PM »

Only thing My marlin doesn't feed well is wadcutter ammo, and with them you have to cycle the lever slowly. Like the earlier poster my brothers and I grew up with that little rifle and have fired many many rounds of anything that we could find in it, with very few problems.

jamaldog87 · « **Reply #11 on:** May 12, 2011, 05:29:53 AM »

This is very good info!! this is why i love this place, good people and good information. The only lever gun i have used and know about(a friend had one and i got to shoot it a lot) is the 450 marlin which was a smooth and sweet shooter. I have play with a few other lever guns at gun stores and one (i think it was a Rossi in 454 casull) the action took both hands to lever and most of them (at the store at least ) seem to have a very rough cycle like one of my daisy lever guns(if you have used a Daisy Model 105 Buck it was about the same feel).

I guess sometimes they let bad one get down the line.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #12 on:** May 12, 2011, 07:43:43 AM »

What N T 10 M said seems true. I also suggest the win 94 wasn't made to shoot revolver cal. rounds that was the 92. The extra room for cart. to get out of line may be its down fall.

Not the 10th Man · « **Reply #13 on:** May 12, 2011, 09:55:49 AM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on May 12, 2011, 07:43:43 AM

What N T 10 M said seems true. I also suggest the win 94 wasn't made to shoot revolver cal. rounds that was the 92. The extra room for cart. to get out of line may be its down fall.

I would totally agree, about the Winchester 94- That was actually one of the things that always irritated the heck out of me, was all the extra slop in that action. My rifle always worked, and was infact more accurate than my 20" bbl. Puma 92, but that big, sloppy action always bothered me- I always saw the opportunity for failure in that gun, even though in all fairness....it never did. Sometimes I get obsessive over minor details that don't make a difference to anyone in the world but myself.

If I can be pardoned for mentally meandering a bit...I remember one time, up here in Alaska, there was a small group of guys talking about boring them out to .454 Casull and selling them out of one of thier shops...They were gonna call it the "Alaska Sourdough Special" or something like that?
I can certainly see the temptation to do so, with all that excess room in the action...take the bbl. off, ream it out a little more, and "voila!" a "custom" lever action. I'm not sure what pressures the Winchester 94 action was intended to work with, but I'm fairly certain it's not nearly as much as the .454 puts out. I just got to reminiscing, and wondering what happened to all that? I didn't see any of them in the obituaries, or ever see any of them wandering around town with missing hands, fingers, or arms. Of course, I never saw an "Alaska Sourdough Special" produced either. Maybe the idea fizzled away safely where it could do no harm? Maybe the Gunsmith involved did his homework and realized it was an exercise in poor judgement, Or maybe they blew up a rifle, but God was keeping his usual keen eye out for children, drunks, and fools that day? Maybe Rossi saved them all by introducing the 92 in a .454 chambering, and thereby nullifying the idea?

Ahem...well...anyways, back to our regularly scheduled programming...As much as I like most of the pistol caliber lever actions, I don't think I'd be in a hurry to pick up a Winchester 94 in a pistol caliber unless it was just ridiculously underpriced- Which aint real often these days.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #14 on:** May 12, 2011, 10:09:20 AM »

Tell about the puma , been looking at one.

Not the 10th Man · « **Reply #15 on:** May 12, 2011, 11:03:55 AM »

My own experience with the Puma is overall, a good thing. I've been reading about them alot myself lately. Mine is a VERY smooth feeder- It's strongest asset...I can feed any .45 Long Colt through it, without issue. Accuracy is adequate. When it comes to woods guns like these, I aint one to sweat bullets and spend hours at the bench, perfecting my loads. I can honestly say, that shooting with a shootin' stick, against a tree, off the hood of a truck, etc. that it keeps every load I've ever run through it inside a softball sized group when I'm doing my part. It doesn't seem to provide "Match grade uber sniper" accuracy with anything, but it remains "minute of deer" or "minute of biped" with everything- which is good enough for my trembling, caffiene charged hands.

The action seems very smooth on it- Better than the Winchester 94. On this one though, I guess maybe I'm just not all that picky- I've never had any complaints, although I am curious to try the tuning kit from "Steve's Gunz" when I get a chance. Heaven forbid that I leave well enough alone, ya' know...

The blue is better than on most guns these days.

For nitpicks, there's certainly a few- The older ones like mine have that very dark wood on them- It looks like the stock was stained with black boot polish. It's ugly, but I guess it works. My next trip home, I think I'd like to try stripping it and seeing if I can't make it any prettier- It certainly can't get uglier. Also, it shot very high, as recieved. I wound up taking the rear sight ramp all the way off to get it dead on at 50. From what I've heard, it's not an uncommon problem with these, and easily rectified with a different height sight ramp. Or, try what I'm hoping to try, and get one of those bolt mounted peep sights. Dunno how that'll work out, but I guess I'll see.

I also aint a big fan of that goofy safety lever on top of the bolt. It's gonna go the way of the Dodo, whether I use a steel blank, or the bolt mounted sight. The last thing I want to hear at a time of need is the resounding "click" from that goofy little safety somehow getting engaged.

At the end of the day, it's not a gun I would sell the farm for, but it is awfully nice.

As I understand it the new Puma's are....different than my older? like being sold through Italy for alot more money? If that's the case, I guess I'll add that it's a great rifle for around $500, but I personally don't value them enough to pay much more than that.

I'm sorry I don't have any better information to add. All I have to base off of is my own experience, and the same forum stuff we've all been reading.

dpe.ahoy · « **Reply #16 on:** May 13, 2011, 03:40:17 AM »

Mine is also a pretty good experience. I seem to have 6 of em and not sure how they all came to live here. First one was a used 44 mag that has a Williams Peep sight on it that has dropped 8-9 mule deer since I've had her. Trigger is heavy but clean breaking. Had problems with the Mag tube moving out from the recoil, gunsmith fixed that. Then had the butt stock crack on one doe shot, causing the shot to go low-left, she went over 300 yd and took a couple of hours to find her. Got a 454 with 20" barrel for the second one and really liked it, very smooth action and trigger, feeds 45 Colt as well as 454's. Power very close to 45-70 factory 300 gr in a much lighter package. Then a 357 with 24" oct. barrel, like everything but the Cresent butt-stock, so replaced it. It was new, heavier trigger, somewhat stiff action that has smoothed up with use. Very nice to shoot with the heavier barrel "hanging" on the target nicely. Next one to follow me home was a 16" stainless 454 Trapper, Williams Firesights were on it from the factory. As smooth as the first one, but with the shorter barrel, get a good grip on the forestock so it doesn't come out of your hand when you touch it off! Perfect for the truck or UTV. Then two 357's, a new Trapper and a used 20" with bolt mounted peep from Dr. Skinner and a Burris 2 3/4 scout mounted on the barrel. The trapper still hasn't been played with much, didn't like my handloads, they would hang up going in the chamber. It did feed the Magteck 158 JSP's fine, action is the roughest of any of the six. I think letting the kids break it in will solve most issues with it, maybe smooth up the end of the chamber as it's pretty sharp. The 20" is pretty well set up with both sights mounted on it, haven't had much time to get it out since spring has finally come around. All were $500 or less, accurate enough for the purpose I have em for and will go th the kids if they want em when I'm done with em. DP

Not the 10th Man · « **Reply #17 on:** May 13, 2011, 11:59:56 AM »

geez dpe.ahoy, Why don'tcha just refrain from comment until you've tried one or two?

I actually appreciate the insight in my post (elsewhere on this forum) , regarding my curiousities between the 16" bbl. VS. the 20" bbl. in my little thread. For what it's worth, I'm leaning toward 16". I think I'm more in the mood for a carbine, especially as it will hopefully, also be useful for home protection. I saw a picture the other day of a Rossi 92 with 16" bbl. beside an M-4 Carbine...the difference was pretty drastic! Just about makes a guy wonder why SWAT teams that go kicking in doors and all would want an AR-15 variant when there's plenty of 92's floating around!

More to the point, you mentioned the scope mount AND the bolt mounted peep sight. I was wondering how that would work. Sounds like it does just fine. What kind of scope mount did you use? Is that combo inparticular working out for you? It sounds just about perfect!

dpe.ahoy · « **Reply #18 on:** May 13, 2011, 01:45:46 PM »

The scope is mounted "scout" style, forward of the receiver on the barrel, it's from Rossi and screws into the holes under the rear sight. It's in Weaver rings, can be taken off in just a few seconds with the use of a quarter. In the rings, it's up high enough the peep doesn't interfear with the scope sighting much. I'm gonna move the scope to the 454 Trapper, I think the extra weight on the barrel will help it settle down some. That one does get pretty lively with full house 454's. The recoil pads that come on the 454's do help, and the mag. tubes are threaded into the receiver so they don't walk out during recoil like my 44 mag did. I think they are worth all the $ I paid for them, no more problems than any other brand I own. I have about as many bolt actions as Marlin, Rossi, Winchester and Browning levers combined, maybe more, and as many 22's as Handi Rifles listed below. Not showin off saying that, just mean that I have had a few problems with some of them, the Rossi's are no worse than any of them. Don't know why people bad mouth them so much. DP

Dand · « **Reply #19 on:** May 18, 2011, 12:17:06 AM »

My 41 mag Marlin does very well with nearly all ammo except SWC bullets. I haven't shot it a lot but was very pleased when I found it would handle the Corbon 265 grain loads and similar. I have never experienced the "Marlin Jam" knock on wood. I tend to cycle it carefully with most ammo except my loads with Rem 200 or 210 bullets. It was pretty smooth at the time of purchase in 2005. The one thing I don't like about the gun is it makes loaded ammo disappear way too fast.

yukondog · « **Reply #20 on:** May 18, 2011, 09:13:07 AM »

Mine's the same way it eats them faster than I can load them. I got Lucky with mine, they shoot SWC fine, But I tend to cycle them slowly also.

GH1 · « **Reply #21 on:** May 22, 2011, 01:55:09 AM »

My Marlin .357 feeds jusat fine. It'll do SWC, but not as well as RNFP. I shoot nothing but cast so I cant comment on HP's.
GH1

Swampman · « **Reply #22 on:** May 22, 2011, 03:10:01 AM »

Lots of folks want to operate a levergun slowly and peek inside the action as they operate the lever. Keep the action vertical, the stock at your shoulder, and operate the action with authority and many problems will go away.

mannyrock · « **Reply #23 on:** May 24, 2011, 04:02:50 AM »

A couple of years ago, Marlin changed the specs on the "lifter" that they use in the model Marlin 1894. The purpose was to make it feed the .38 special rounds more smoothly, and to prevent the "Marlin jam" with these shorter rounds. By and large, these work great. If you have an older rifle, then you can change out the lifter to the new one by just buying a new lifter from Brownell's, from the parts lists that are in the back of the catalogue. Extremely easy to install.

I understand that in about 2/3rds of the time, you can just install the new lifter with zero fitting work. About 1/3rd of the time, they need some minor fitting by a gunsmith to cycle the .38s reliably.

The Marlin lever was never designed to cycle .38 special wadcutters, so everyone should just quit complaining about how they won't feed. You are the problem, not the rifle. You are putting the wrong ammunition in the rifle.

Some of the Marlins will feed the wadcutter, but this is just the luck of the draw. All of them will shoot them fine if you load them one at a time.

The Marlin 1894 has never had any issues cycling and firing the .357 rounds, except wadcutters. So, any rumors to the contrary are simply false.

You CAN however wear out your lifter after a couple thousand rounds. (Ask cowboy action shooters). This occurs much more commonly among people who cycle the lever at a super fast rate (again, cowboy action shooters). So, just buy a new one, or better two, to have a spare.

Mannyrock

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #24 on:** May 25, 2011, 07:34:28 AM »

Quote from: Swampman on May 22, 2011, 03:10:01 AM

Lots of folks want to operate a levergun slowly and peek inside the action as they operate the lever. Keep the action vertical, the stock at your shoulder, and operate the action with authority and many problems will go away.

true !

gr8ful · « **Reply #25 on:** May 29, 2011, 03:01:27 PM »

Quote from: mannyrock on May 24, 2011, 04:02:50 AM

A couple of years ago, Marlin changed the specs on the "lifter" that they use in the model Marlin 1894. The purpose was to make it feed the .38 special rounds more smoothly, and to prevent the "Marlin jam" with these shorter rounds. By and large, these work great. If you have an older rifle, then you can change out the lifter to the new one by just buying a new lifter from Brownell's, from the parts lists that are in the back of the catalogue. Extremely easy to install.

I understand that in about 2/3rds of the time, you can just install the new lifter with zero fitting work. About 1/3rd of the time, they need some minor fitting by a gunsmith to cycle the .38s reliably.

The Marlin lever was never designed to cycle .38 special wadcutters, so everyone should just quit complaining about how they won't feed. You are the problem, not the rifle. You are putting the wrong ammunition in the rifle.

Some of the Marlins will feed the wadcutter, but this is just the luck of the draw. All of them will shoot them fine if you load them one at a time.

The Marlin 1894 has never had any issues cycling and firing the .357 rounds, except wadcutters. So, any rumors to the contrary are simply false.

You CAN however wear out your lifter after a couple thousand rounds. (Ask cowboy action shooters). This occurs much more commonly among people who cycle the lever at a super fast rate (again, cowboy action shooters). So, just buy a new one, or better two, to have a spare.

Mannyrock

Mine just broke, but I guess it has been a few thousand rounds, so off to brownells for the new one. thanks for the post!

jakeemt · « **Reply #26 on:** June 07, 2011, 12:35:49 PM »

I have s stock 1894 that I have been quite pleased with. Blueing isn't fabulous nor is the wood. However mine will feed a tube full of dewc loaded in 357 cases. It will also cycle swc and round nose in 38 cases. It doesn't like to be canted left or right with wc or swc but that's no big deal. Just my experience though.

454Puma · « **Reply #27 on:** June 13, 2011, 08:24:06 PM »

Swampman
Yep can't wimp on the action! Jack those rounds in and out!

dharmabum · « **Reply #28 on:** June 20, 2011, 12:45:35 PM »

I shot a friends Marlin .357 and it ate whatever we fed it. I liked the Henry better,
so bought one in .357 this last saturday. Having some feeding issues with .38 specials,so a nice person at Henry asked me to send it to them and they'd get it back on the rails. That is sure an advantage to buying an American made rifle IMO.
Swampman is right, jack the lever like you mean business. BTW, it gives me nice groups at the range.