Author Topic: lock time (Read 2845 times)

geezerbiker · « **on:** May 14, 2011, 08:44:48 AM »

Is there much that can be done for the Handi rifle to improve lock time? I tossed the hammer extension because I could hear and obvious slowing of lock time with it. I have high rings on my .223 ultra varmint and I can just squeeze a finger in there to cock the hammer so I don't miss the extension (much.)

On M1911 pistols, lightening up the hammer to speed up lock time is a pretty standard thing. Has anyone cross drilled the or otherwise lighted up the Hammer or put in a stronger main spring and successfully improved lock time?

Tony

PowPow · « **Reply #1 on:** May 14, 2011, 08:55:49 AM »

always wondered the same thing.

seems like you would need a certain minimum mass of the hammer to get the momentum to ignite the primer.
a spring with a higher spring rate would be harder to pull back but would accelerate the hammer faster.
here is some info on what makes for a higher spring rate:
http://www.tuninglinx.com/html/spring-rate.html

can't say how much spring fits inside a handi.
interesting topic though.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #2 on:** May 14, 2011, 09:22:07 AM »

See the Wolff extra power springs and trigger work links in the FAQs.

Tim

Dinny · « **Reply #3 on:** May 14, 2011, 12:56:59 PM »

I have an extra hammer that I butchered while trying to shorten it. I guarantee it's lighter...but still usable. If you would like it for your own experimentations, send me a PM with your address.

I would think that the Perklo trigger hone instructions (as I'm sure Tim made reference to) would improve upon the lock time. Smooth edges always helps reduce friction.

Thanks, Dinny

gcrank1 · « **Reply #4 on:** May 14, 2011, 01:58:20 PM »

Anyone noticed that the extra power springs make the trigger pull heavier?

bikerbeans · « **Reply #5 on:** May 14, 2011, 02:12:35 PM »

gcrank,

Jedman & I where comparing by 45-120 with a new Wolff trigger spring againist a handi with a standard spring. We couldn't feel any difference. We didn't try and actually measure the force to cock the hammer, but it they feel the same they are probably pretty close.

I was wondering if it would be possible to modify the shelf in the reciever were the long end of the hammer spring rests so to increase the tension on the spring? In a day or two when I disassemble another receiver I am going to play around with increasing the tension of of the hammer spring. I've go spares so worst case I add to my scrap pile.

BB

thejanitor · « **Reply #6 on:** May 14, 2011, 02:54:33 PM »

Cocking without a hammer extension isn't always a problem but trying to safely un-cock it can be tricky if you decide not to fire the round. Just something I have noticed over the years of swapping this and that and ending up at the range minus an extension.
thejanitor

bikerbeans · « **Reply #7 on:** May 14, 2011, 04:38:33 PM »

Quote from: thejanitor on May 14, 2011, 02:54:33 PM

Cocking without a hammer extension isn't always a problem but trying to safely un-cock it can be tricky if you decide not to fire the round. Just something I have noticed over the years of swapping this and that and ending up at the range minus an extension.
thejanitor

10-4 on the decock. I alway put my left thumb in front of the hammer when I decock to be safe.

BB

Dinny · « **Reply #8 on:** May 14, 2011, 04:45:02 PM »

Quote from: bikerbeans on May 14, 2011, 04:38:33 PM

10-4 on the decock. I alway put my left thumb in front of the hammer when I decock to be safe.
BB

I always put my thumb over the end of the barrel to keep things in there if the hammer does fall accidentally.

Kinda hard to do that with the 45-70 BC (short arms), so I just use my foot instead....

, Dinny

geezerbiker · « **Reply #9 on:** May 14, 2011, 06:49:37 PM »

I'd like to start with a good hammer. Where did you buy the replacement?

Tony

Quote from: Dinny on May 14, 2011, 12:56:59 PM

I have an extra hammer that I butchered while trying to shorten it. I guarantee it's lighter...but still usable. If you would like it for your own experimentations, send me a PM with your address.

Thanks, Dinny

Dinny · « **Reply #10 on:** May 14, 2011, 07:00:38 PM »

I believe it was Numrich's. It has been a while since I bought any, sorry.

Thanks, Dinny

geezerbiker · « **Reply #11 on:** May 14, 2011, 07:30:44 PM »

I checked with Numrich and they want a very reasonable 12 bucks for a hammer... What I plan to do is to buy a hammer and the Wolf springs. I'll work over the hammer to see what I can do to lighten. Later on when I get up enough nerve to try driving out the pins, I'll do a trigger job and install the new parts. I don't know how to measure lock time so it will be a subjective thing and I don't know if I can quantify the results...

I know on M1911 competition pistols, they carve a lot out of the hammers to lighten them up and supposedly the increased speed makes up for the loss of mass. I can't say for sure but light hammers do seem to be hurting the M1911 race gun competition. Only experimentation will prove it this can be applied to a Handi rifle.

I've looked over the FAQ on doing a trigger job... I'm a former motorcycle mechanic and I'm not afraid to take most anything apart but disassembling a pinned together receiver has me more than a little intimidated.

Tony

Dinny · « **Reply #12 on:** May 14, 2011, 07:41:04 PM »

Tony,
Don't sweat the small stuff like disassembling the Handi receiver. It's so easy, even a caveman can do it!

All kidding aside, I was concerned about it too...until I did it once. It is a rather simple design.

Thanks, Dinny

thejanitor · « **Reply #13 on:** May 14, 2011, 08:10:47 PM »

For the price of the part and shipping you may want two hammers at once.... just wondering but here a while back somone broke a hammer with just normal use, would lightening the hammer (by carving out area with a dremel or something) cause the hammer to stress and crack or break more so than a standard hammer? Just wondering and thought ordering 2 may save shipping later. I have not worked on a hammer at all so have no reason to give ideas, I just saw the broken hammer post a while back. Good luck, thejanitor

geezerbiker · « **Reply #14 on:** May 14, 2011, 11:44:38 PM »

I was already thinking of getting 2 of them. At that price, why not?

I plan to radially drill it with small holes and chamfer the edges to reduce the sharp edges where cracks start. I won't know exactly how many or how large the holes will be until I get the hammers. I already have a drill press and cobalt steel drill bits that I use in my business so that part is pretty much free.

I saw a pic here where someone had bobbed a hammer and used a screw for a hammer cocking extension. If I can bob off enough to cover the weight of the extension, I'll consider that too. I have a good working relationship with a hardware supplier and I'll ask about titanium screws the next time I'm over there. I'm not a real machinist and I don't think I could make a hammer out of titanium or I would already be considering that.

I can most likely write off the tools I need to open up the action but I'd really like to be able to watch someone else do it first. Likely I'll end up jumping in and trying it on my own...

I want to do as much good stuff while I'm in there and I'm thinking a stronger catch spring like mentioned on the FAQ page would be another worthwhile mod. I don't mind dropping 50 bucks or so on an experiment to improve lock time and trigger pull so long as I don't make it worse...

Tony

Rodland · « **Reply #15 on:** May 15, 2011, 03:31:23 AM »

I've looked over the FAQ on doing a trigger job... I'm a former motorcycle mechanic and I'm not afraid to take most anything apart but disassembling a pinned together receiver has me more than a little intimidated.

Tony
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't sweat the trigger job. I was just like you and picked mine up and put it back down many times before I got the nerve to break it open. If you use the FAQs' you got it licked. If you get in there and have questions there is an abundance of help here. I ain't a gunsmith but I did stay at a Holiday Inn once.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #16 on:** May 15, 2011, 03:32:45 AM »

Morning,
The disassembly may seem intimidation but your not alone and further examination of the giggled disassembly posts will make it much easier Must be sure to make a slave pin otherwise frustration will surely set in!!!!

I'm interested to read what you come up with and it's results
Please post up with pictures.

Now for coffee. Rainy day here maybe I'll head to loading room...
CW

gcrank1 · « **Reply #17 on:** May 15, 2011, 04:12:32 AM »

Likewise FMM too, if you have the dished punch set already you are good, if not, get a set for the domed pins. I found a needle bearing in my bin that made a fine slave pin but if you order an extra hammer pin you will have stock to make some. Remember right to left drives out the splined end and realigning the splines in the frame is a bit futzy upon reassembly; I push them up to the frame, grab the splined head with a small pliers and turn & push feeling to the splines to engage the frame in a 'comfortable' spot and drive in.
I know CW has put in heavier catch springs and has a source & pt.no.
BTW, the pin holding the T-bar & spring, etc. is the same dia. as the hammer pin and you will need a short slave pin to hold all those bits together inside. That assembly can be harder to mess with than the rest of the works as they are hard to manage and the return spring position can be confusing. Do it last or not at all unless you have T-bar issues.
The rest is a snap for you, go for it, no worries!

Fred M · « **Reply #18 on:** May 15, 2011, 01:22:49 PM »

By simply reversing the hammer extension to the underside of the hammer and opening
the the slot in the extension to let the extension slide down the hammer as far as you can about 3/8", then trim off the top of the hammer by this much, will increase the hammer speed. The hammer extension will require less spring power at this location since it is closer to the center of rotation. Hence faster lock time.

Note: You can slide the extension down only so far or the extension will hit the opening latch preventing the gun from closeing. This will also allow the lowest scope mounting.
To remove the extension on a scope mounted Handi is utter nonsense and very unsafe.

I have done this on the two of my Handi's without problems.
The varmint Handi 6x47 will produce 3/8 groups at 100. I don't think any thing more of
speeding up the hammer will produce any better accuracy, simply because of the Handi
stretchy platform. This simple procedure together with a good trigger pull will be do a good
accuracy improvement. It is however important to have a good barrel that can produce
good accuracy. Both my barrels have been rebored to match grade standards.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #19 on:** May 15, 2011, 05:08:11 PM »

FWIW, just shoot a flintlock for a while and you will think the locktime on a Handi is fine.

uncyboo · « **Reply #20 on:** May 15, 2011, 06:05:25 PM »

Quote from: Fred M on May 15, 2011, 01:22:49 PM

By simply reversing the hammer extension to the underside of the hammer and opening
the the slot in the extension to let the extension slide down the hammer as far as you can about 3/8", then trim off the top of the hammer by this much, will increase the hammer speed. The hammer extension will require less spring power at this location since it is closer to the center of rotation. Hence faster lock time.

This is exactly how I do mine and it works great. Plus, the extensions I use are from a closeout lot I got from GunParts years ago. They are not the usual round, steel, knurled ones but are flat with a light curve and made from aluminum, so they are a bit lighter to begin with. The slot that the hammer goes in is symetrical, so turning it over doesn't matter. A little needle filing to the slot opening allows me to mount it very low on the hammer and a little bevelling of the leading edge keeps it from hitting the opening lever. Then just bob the hammer down to the extension.

v8r · « **Reply #21 on:** May 15, 2011, 06:44:53 PM »

One thing to remember also is a 1911 does not have a transfer bar like a handy. I don't know if it makes much difference or not, but it may take more mass (heavier hammer) to move the transfer bar and firing pin. The hammer on a 1911 directly hits the firing pin.

Now that I think of it a 1911 firing pin has more mass than the one in a handy.......... may not make any difference:/

geezerbiker · « **Reply #22 on:** May 15, 2011, 09:32:12 PM »

Since I'm not going to be modifying the original hammer, I'm not at all worried if it doesn't work. At a minimum the Wolf springs will pick things up a bit.

There's no way in hell that I'm going to reinstall the original hammer extension. I'm using Buris high Z rings to hold the scope and there's just enough space. When I need to uncock it, I open the action and nothing can be more safe than that. If I can incorporate a hammer extension screw into the other work I'm doing, I will but it's not at the top of my list...

BTW, where are y'all getting your dished punch sets to open the action with? I've worked on 5 valve per-cylinder engines, I guess this can't be much harder...

Perhaps I'm on a fools errand, but it's my money. I know it will never match my BSA Martini single shot for lock time...

Tony

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #23 on:** May 16, 2011, 01:00:50 AM »

"BTW, where are y'all getting your dished punch sets to open the action with?" - geezerbiker

I used a large nail set punch to start the pins out, then used a regular drift punch to get it out all the way. I supported the frame on a wood block with a gap where the pins come out. Keeping the frame solid with out rocking is important to get the pins out safely. It is also important for resetting the pins when you are finished so you do not mar the frame.

Dinny · « **Reply #24 on:** May 16, 2011, 05:12:35 AM »

Quote from: LaOtto222 on May 16, 2011, 01:00:50 AM

I used a large nail set punch to start the pins out, then used a regular drift punch to get it out all the way. I supported the frame on a wood block with a gap where the pins come out. Keeping the frame solid with out rocking is important to get the pins out safely. It is also important for resetting the pins when you are finished so you do not mar the frame.

+1, me too, exactly.

Thanks, Dinny

geezerbiker · « **Reply #25 on:** May 18, 2011, 03:56:21 AM »

One more dumb question. I went to the gun parts sight to order the hammers and they only list SB1 Pardner parts. I know the frames are a bit different but are the other parts any different?

Tony

gcrank1 · « **Reply #26 on:** May 18, 2011, 04:12:06 AM »

If you dont have the punches for domed pins it wouldnt be a bad idea to use brass. Of course the right punch is so much less likely to skip off the dome and mess up the frame than a typical flat faced punch (which only contacts the very top of the pin). The 'nail set' has a relief inside but still imparts the pressure to a relatively small ring of contact. Punch sets, or individuals, are available from all the big time, expensive tool 'truck' companies, and Sears. Im sure Ive also seen them in the discount catalogs from places like Harbor Freight.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #27 on:** May 18, 2011, 01:52:18 PM »

Quote from: geezerbiker on May 18, 2011, 03:56:21 AM

One more dumb question. I went to the gun parts sight to order the hammers and they only list SB1 Pardner parts. I know the frames are a bit different but are the other parts any different?

Tony

Internal parts are the same, all but the firing pin, and even it can be turned down.

Tim

cwlongshot · « **Reply #28 on:** May 19, 2011, 02:35:11 AM »

Quote from: Fred M on May 15, 2011, 01:22:49 PM

By simply reversing the hammer extension to the underside of the hammer and opening
the the slot in the extension to let the extension slide down the hammer as far as you can about 3/8", then trim off the top of the hammer by this much, will increase the hammer speed.

LOL, I have dome this for years! At first cause I preceded the "look" then I realized with a bit of grinding ( As Fred mentioned) I got even more clearance!! Never really thought about the reduction of rotational mass... My physics teacher would be proud

! Lol

Good stuff as always!!

CW

cwlongshot · « **Reply #29 on:** May 19, 2011, 02:37:17 AM »

Quote from: quickdtoo on May 18, 2011, 01:52:18 PM

Quote from: geezerbiker on May 18, 2011, 03:56:21 AM
One more dumb question. I went to the gun parts sight to order the hammers and they only list SB1 Pardner parts. I know the frames are a bit different but are the other parts any different?

Tony

Internal parts are the same, all but the firing pin, and even it can be turned down.

Tim

Yup Tims correct (As usual). Your good with the "partner" parts!!

LOL

CW