Author Topic: 357 Max and Lil'Gun (Read 2588 times)

Gohon · « **on:** May 14, 2011, 11:54:10 AM »

Anyone using this powder in their 357 Max? I finally had my Handi reamed out to Max after playing around with modified cartridges in the stock barrel. One of the best moves I've ever made but load data is almost non existent for this round in a rifle. I've seen some reports on the net of people using 22 and 23 grains of Lil'gun but these seem awful hot to me. I worked up three loads today using Lil'Gun (not as high as the loads just mentioned) and through the chrony I hit averages of 2060, 2129, and 2181 fps with excellent accuracy on all three, especially the first two loads which were clover leaf at 50 yards. These were using the RD 192 grain gas checked casts. No signs of excess pressure of any kind and I'm thinking there is really no need to look for more speed and energy from this round. Curious to know what results others have had and recommendations for different powders.

Dinny · « **Reply #1 on:** May 14, 2011, 12:08:22 PM »

Quote from: Gohon on May 14, 2011, 11:54:10 AM

Anyone using this powder in their 357 Max? I finally had my Handi reamed out to Max after playing around with modified cartridges in the stock barrel. One of the best moves I've ever made but load data is almost non existent for this round in a rifle. I've seen some reports on the net of people using 22 and 23 grains of Lil'gun but these seem awful hot to me. I worked up three loads today using Lil'Gun (not as high as the loads just mentioned) and through the chrony I hit averages of 2060, 2129, and 2181 fps with excellent accuracy on all three, especially the first two loads which were clover leaf at 50 yards. These were using the RD 192 grain gas checked casts. No signs of excess pressure of any kind and I'm thinking there is really no need to look for more speed and energy from this round. Curious to know what results others have had and recommendations for different powders.

I would have to respectfully disagree with you on the bold statement. The FAQs and other discussions here in GBO provide a ton of load data for the .357 Maxi in a rifle.

Here's a start, http://357maximum.com/developing-a-load/

Thanks, Dinny

dave29 · « **Reply #2 on:** May 14, 2011, 12:50:45 PM »

Check out the .357 Maximum site, like Dinny said.

My load formula is almost identical to one posted there, that's actually where I got the info for a beginning point of my loads.

Lon371 · « **Reply #3 on:** May 14, 2011, 02:04:26 PM »

This site is full of load info for the Maxi. You will have to dig around to find it. Like the others said read thru the FAQs on this forum. Also .357 Maximum site has good info(plus he is a member here

)

Lonny

Gohon · « **Reply #4 on:** May 14, 2011, 03:49:23 PM »

Well..........the link provided discusses exactly two powders, one of which I posted I was using and was curious about. The other powder I don't have so I'll have to get a jug of that to try out. The FAQ's is a complete bust for load data except for one that mentioned a powder but no data. Not sure I would call this a ton of information but maybe just a search of the forum itself will bring something up. I'm sure eventually I'll stumble into something but thanks anyway.

BTW.....Dinny, the same smith that's doingthe work on your stubby maxi is the one that reamed mine out for me. I had him work a trigger on another Handi for me a few months back and they guy sure knows his stuff. He does excellent work with a fast turn around.

Dinny · « **Reply #5 on:** May 14, 2011, 04:02:14 PM »

Quote from: Gohon on May 14, 2011, 03:49:23 PM

BTW.....Dinny, the same smith that's doing the work on your stubby maxi is the one that reamed mine out for me. I had him work a trigger on another Handi for me a few months back and they guy sure knows his stuff. He does excellent work with a fast turn around.

Your Handis are in good hands when they're in Vinita, OK.

As for the load data, it's there. I searched again myself and found no less than 30 different posts that had Maxi rifle data in them. W296, H Lil Gun and AA1680 seem to lead the Maxi reloading pack.

Thanks, Dinny

revbc · « **Reply #6 on:** May 16, 2011, 10:37:18 AM »

Gohon,

Here's you a little. I have the same RD mold.

Enforcer 14.0grs.****Best group worked up for this powder

Lil Gun 20.5grs.***Best group worked up for this powder

Watch your OAL on the Ranch Dogs, mine is 2.116 to the rifling.

USE THESE AT YOUR OWN RISK, STANDARD DISCLAIMER

Jimbo47 · « **Reply #7 on:** May 16, 2011, 12:22:20 PM »

My Maxi would shoot one small ragged hole at 50 yards using a 180 grain XTP bullet and 18.5 grains of IMR4227 powder.

When I first tried it I thought some of my shots might have missed completly hitting the paper, and when I repeated the feat, I got really scared!

torpedoman · « **Reply #8 on:** May 16, 2011, 04:19:02 PM »

ammoguide.com has 95 loads listed.

Gohon · « **Reply #9 on:** May 17, 2011, 10:18:34 AM »

Quote

ammoguide.com has 95 loads listed.

Sure....if one wants to pay for a subscription.....

revbc, 19, 20, and 21 grains of Lil'Gun are what I've tested so far. I really like the 20 grain charge for the 192 grain cast I'm using and have pretty much settled on that one but I may have to give the 20.5 grain charge a try. Thanks to all that have responded.

torpedoman · « **Reply #10 on:** May 17, 2011, 04:00:11 PM »

Quote from: Gohon on May 17, 2011, 10:18:34 AM

Quote
ammoguide.com has 95 loads listed.

Sure....if one wants to pay for a subscription.....

revbc, 19, 20, and 21 grains of Lil'Gun are what I've tested so far. I really like the 20 grain charge for the 192 grain cast I'm using and have pretty much settled on that one but I may have to give the 20.5 grain charge a try. Thanks to all that have responded.

A lot of their info is FREE to visitors for a while. I'll bet you payed more for one reloading manual that has 1/2 the info and is out of date 6 months later.

Qualitymilk · « **Reply #11 on:** May 17, 2011, 04:25:26 PM »

I've had really good luck with both H110 and AA1680 in my MAX. I like the H110 for lighter bullets - 100g XTP's, and the AA!^*) is better for heavier bullets - I shoot 158g XTP's in mine. I use Rem. 7 1/2 primers, too. Both of these powders had standard load info in Hornady and Speer's reloading guides, and I can consistantly shoot less than 1/2" groups with these loads. Hope this gives u a little more to chew on and good luck!

Gohon · « **Reply #12 on:** May 17, 2011, 04:49:25 PM »

When I tried to register at ammoguide it told me I was already a subscribed member. Guess I did that a couple years ago. Then I discovered why I never went back to the site. You have to be a Paying member to get the type of powder and the charge weight. All you get for free is the bullet weight and and speed......not much value in that. Just me I guess but I'd much rather have a good load manual in my hands. Load manual out of date in 6 months.............come on now. Most of my manuals are less than 6 years old and none of them are out of date. Some of the newer cartridges are not in them but if one doesn't shoot them then who cares. Even the 20 year old Speer and Lyman books I have still has useful information in them.

Qualitymilk, I use H110 in a lot of my loadings in different calibers and I really like the powder. May work up some loads using it. I shoot almost exclusively cast and very seldom use plinking loads. My plinking shooting is always done with hunting loads and always using cast. I've heard and read a lot about AA 1680 in the max so I'm going to pick up a jar of it this week when at the store.

watkibe · « **Reply #13 on:** May 17, 2011, 06:47:35 PM »

Most data for the 357 Maximum is just that, maximum. I wanted to develop a cast bullet load for plinking and practice, and data for that was indeed scarce. I use H110 for my maximum loads and it performs wonderfully. But as we all know, you don't fiddle around reducing H110.
I tried something for the first time: I called the Sierra ballistics hotline, and they came up with 1 cast bullet load using 2400, from the Lyman manual. This powder, from St Elmer on down, had been "the" magnum powder, but unlike H110, it doesn't mind reducing the charge very much. They also had a 2400 load for the 180 gr SSP.
I've used the cast load and it's perfect for my purpose. I'm using Lee's 358-158 2R bullet, which weighs 165gr with my alloy, on top of an appropriate amount of 2400 and getting velocities in the neighborhood of 1600 fps, which is a very nice neighborhood !

earl54 · « **Reply #14 on:** May 18, 2011, 05:11:34 AM »

You can use .38special,and .357mag load data in 357max.I have done so in my 2 handguns,working on a Handi-Max now.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #15 on:** May 18, 2011, 06:01:04 AM »

Quote from: earl54 on May 18, 2011, 05:11:34 AM

You can use .38special,and .357mag load data in 357max.I have done so in my 2 handguns,working on a Handi-Max now.

Just to clarify this.

Loading loaded rounds in 38,357 mag & 357 max (AMMUNITION) in a 357 maximum chambered barrel is just fine.

Using 38 spl or 357 mag RE-LOADING data when reloading the longer MAXIMUM cases is NOT fine and NOT advisable!!!!

CW

Gohon · « **Reply #16 on:** May 19, 2011, 03:52:00 AM »

Quote

Using 38 spl or 357 mag RE-LOADING data when reloading the longer MAXIMUM cases is NOT fine and NOT advisable!!!!

When one looks at the Hodgdon load data site it bares out your statement. For example, the starting load difference when using H110 with the 357 magnum and 357 maximum is as much as 8 grains difference with the same bullet. Since I'm not sure in my mind the exact reason for this, although I think I know, can you expand on that just a tad.

Dinny · « **Reply #17 on:** May 19, 2011, 06:06:16 AM »

As with many powders, but especially H110 and WW296, pressures can spike greatly when using reduced loads. The paragraphs labeled Reduced Charges further explain this.

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylor/blowups.htm

Thanks, Dinny

Gohon · « **Reply #18 on:** May 19, 2011, 07:51:06 AM »

I read the section on reduced charges and the only thing conclusive is a reduced charge may stick a bullet in the barrel and the next shot would produce high pressure in the barrel. According to the same article, even powder companies can't get a gun to over pressurize and blow up with a reduced charge. The more I think about it, it doesn't make sense that a 357 magnum charge in a 357 maximum case would create high pressure.

Makes me wonder if for example a 170 GR. SIE JHC in the 357 magnum with a listed max load of 15.5 grains of H110 and a 357 maximum with a starting load of 20 grains of H110, actually has more to do with the guns themselves commonly used with the maximum and the higher pressure the 357 maximum produces as the only differences in the load data.

Tom Threetoes · « **Reply #19 on:** May 19, 2011, 11:43:41 AM »

I may be way off but my take on this is, powder burns in a progressive manner at a certain rate. If some powders like 296 and H110 are reduced, too much powder is exposed to ignition by the primer and burns at a much faster rate and causes pressure spikes. That's why a full charge in a magnum case maybe OK but the same charge in the larger case of the Max would be a reduced charge and be dangerous. If I'm wrong it won't be the first time, but my thinking anyway.

Dinny · « **Reply #20 on:** May 19, 2011, 01:07:26 PM »

Here's some helpful info from Hodgdon's website.

The individual accessing this site assumes the risk of safe loading practices. Failure to do so could result in severe personal injury (or death) and/or property damage.

USE THIS DATA WITH HODGDON®, IMR® AND WINCHESTER® BRAND POWDERS ONLY.

For all brands of powders use only the components shown. If the reloader makes any changes in components or gets new lot numbers, he should begin again with the starting loads and work up to maximum cautiously.

For those loads listed where a starting load is not shown, start 10% below the suggested maximum load and then approach maximums carefully, watching for any sign of pressure (difficult extraction, cratered and flattened or blown primers, and unusual recoil). H110 and Winchester 296 loads should not be reduced more than 3%.

Reduce H110 and Winchester 296 loads 3% and work up from there. H110 and Winchester 296 if reduced too much will cause inconsistent ignition. In some cases it will lodge a bullet in the barrel, causing a hazardous situation (Barrel Obstruction). This may cause severe personal injury or death to users or bystanders. DO NOT REDUCE H110 LOADS BY MORE THAN 3%.

http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

Thanks, Dinny

Gohon · « **Reply #21 on:** May 19, 2011, 02:12:17 PM »

Quote

Reduce H110 and Winchester 296 loads 3% and work up from there. H110 and Winchester 296 if reduced too much will cause inconsistent ignition. In some cases it will lodge a bullet in the barrel, causing a hazardous situation (Barrel Obstruction). This may cause severe personal injury or death to users or bystanders. DO NOT REDUCE H110 LOADS BY MORE THAN 3%.

This I understand and it certainly makes sense. But the operative words here are "inconsistent burn". This tells me, at least the way I read it, is due to the way these powders ignite and burn there may not be enough pressure to push the bullet completely through the barrel if a low charge is used, setting up a situation where the next round fired would then over pressurize the barrel. This would be the reason when using powders such as H110 and WW296 a full case load and hot primers are needed for a proper burn. There certainly doesn't seem to be anything to support the thought that a low charge of these powders, by themselves, creates high pressure. Actually it appears just the opposite.

Just seems to me when reading what the powder companies themselves have to say on this subject, they do not agree to the theory that a reduced charge will blow up a gun without mitigating circumstances involved.

In truth I never go below or above published load data anyway so it really doesn't affect me but it is a interesting subject to say the least.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #22 on:** May 24, 2011, 05:42:49 AM »

Gohon, I think you have a pretty good grasp of the concepts; the problem we have is that when anyone goes 'off data' they are in that place were the sign would say,'beyond this place there be dragons'. Many of us have 'been creative' in our interpretation and extrapolation of reloading data, and done it safely, but the relatively new reloader can get into big trouble SOOOO fast, and this is why many forums prohibit the posting of anything but book data. I am glad that this forum allows us to beat this around the bush, but newish reloaders often dont entirely read something the way we think we are stating it. I sure dont want to mis-state something and give somebody a bad day.
Cut to the chase:For reduced loads use the starting data for the cartridge by the powder manufacturers.
For top loads work up carefully when you get toward the top. Generally you can be about 10% below a top listed load and have plenty of performance while not pushing the envelope, but that is 'generally', your gun may be different than mine.
After a good number of years and/or experience you may be tempted to go ' off book'. Dont do it lightly.